Discrimination

[Ectezus]

Is it immoral to discriminate against people who discriminate?
Lets say; people who consider women highly inferior to men, as for example the Quran clearly states.

In other words: Is everyone equal, even the people who don't consider everyone equal?

Your thoughts?

- Ectezus

 

[Deadbolt]

As much as we hate it, I'd say you must treat them with equal respect towards their rights, However, this does not in any way mean that you must respect their opinions or hide your disdain for them in any way.

 

[cantata]

Is it immoral to discriminate against people who discriminate?
Lets say; people who consider women highly inferior to men, as for example the Quran clearly states.

What sort of discrimination are you thinking about?

ETA: I mean, what sort of discrimination against the discriminators? Are you asking whether you should be able to discriminate, on the basis of their sex, against women who think that women are inferior to men?

In other words: Is everyone equal, even the people who don't consider everyone equal?

Everyone is not equal.

 

[wanderingone]

Is it immoral to discriminate against people who discriminate?
Lets say; people who consider women highly inferior to men, as for example the Quran clearly states.

In other words: Is everyone equal, even the people who don't consider everyone equal?

Your thoughts?

- Ectezus

What's your definition of discriminate?

 

[Ectezus]

What sort of discrimination are you thinking about?

ETA: I mean, what sort of discrimination against the discriminators? Are you asking whether you should be able to discriminate, on the basis of their sex, against women who think that women are inferior to men?

My question is about your thoughts. Do you draw a line somewhere where it is ok to discriminate against someone who thinks women are inferior to men? If so, please give an example of what you do and do not consider "OK", to determine this line.

What's your definition of discriminate?

For general purposes let's say: to act on it in some way or another.
Of course it's up to the person responding to tell us what that type of 'act' is.

- Ectezus

 

[wanderingone]

Discrimination to me is a legal definition. I can't discriminate against someone based on something like their religion or complexion etc..

In terms of my personal life, chances are I'm not going to spend a lot of time socializing with members of the he man women haters club.

 

[mpok1519]

lol I have been called a hypocrite before because of my intolerance of biggots, racists, and segregators.

I still laugh, because I know those people ARE the biggots, racists, haters, discriminators, segregators, etc, etc, etc....

I don't really need to hate them; they hate theirselves.

 

[cantata]

My question is about your thoughts. Do you draw a line somewhere where it is ok to discriminate against someone who thinks women are inferior to men? If so, please give an example of what you do and do not consider "OK", to determine this line.

But I don’t know what you class as discrimination. Obviously, I would not advocate repealing any of their human rights on the basis of their views. But I probably wouldn’t take their views very seriously when formulating an equal opportunities policy for my business. Is that discrimination?

 

[Ectezus]

But I probably wouldn’t take their views very seriously when formulating an equal opportunities policy for my business. Is that discrimination?

I don't consider ignoring someone's opinion to be discrimination. But how about you get to give someone a promotion/raise for your business or even just hire someone and you know some person discriminates a lot against women/black people/etc..
Would it influence your decision?
If so; do you consider this a bad thing?

- Ectezus

 

[cantata]

I don't consider ignoring someone's opinion to be discrimination. But how about you get to give someone a promotion/raise for your business and you know some person discriminates a lot against women/black people/etc..
Would it influence your decision?

Not unless it pertained to their ability to perform the role. If it did, they shouldn’t have the job anyway.

Come on, Ectezus. Should I be able to deny someone a raise because they buy Coke and my best friend works for Pepsi?

 

[keith99]

I don't consider ignoring someone's opinion to be discrimination. But how about you get to give someone a promotion/raise for your business or even just hire someone and you know some person discriminates a lot against women/black people/etc..
Would it influence your decision?
If so; do you consider this a bad thing?

- Ectezus

That rather depends. Let us say it is truely my business, as in my money that is being paid. In that case I feel a lot more free to do as I wish as opposed to having more of a focus on the success of the business.

Now if this were for a position that is supervisory then it is a major blackmark, if such attitude were expressed in the workplace they would have a negative impact on my bottom line. My business I have the freedom to do things that cost, he (or she) does not.

Now if it were physical labor I'm just enough af a creative (explictive deleted, I hate that I can't even use some words to describe myself) that I just might hire the guy and pair him with the hardest working strongest black guy that works for me and make sure his manager keeps him very aware of it if his work output falls short of the man he is paired with. That of have him reporting to a black woman.

 

[mpok1519]

if one doesnt like someone because that person is a biggot or racist, thats not discrimination; thats just normal.

I don't like racists or biggots.

does that make me intolerant? or discriminative? no.

 

[Ectezus]

Not unless it pertained to their ability to perform the role. If it did, they shouldn’t have the job anyway.

Come on, Ectezus. Should I be able to deny someone a raise because they buy Coke and my best friend works for Pepsi?

I don't see the use of your cola analogy. I consider it a serious issue.

Cantata, do or do you not consider the standard that "women and men are equal" a superior way of thinking than the idea that "women are inferior"?

I have no problem saying that I do consider the former point of view superior. Can you honestly tell me that if you were to hire/promote someone who thinks women, including you, are inferior that you would treat that person equally?

The point where you seem to draw the line, ie: being able to do the work properly, at what point is it breached? What if a male doesn't want to shake his fellow female employees hand or clearly thinks less of them. What if the female employees pick up on this and on their turn don't like to work together with them.
Are they discriminating against the discriminator? Are you discriminating for not hiring a discriminator to prevent the females from discriminating against the discriminator?

- Ectezus

 

[cantata]

I don't see the use of your cola analogy. I consider it a serious issue.

Do you think it would be legitimate to discriminate on that basis, though?

Cantata, do or do you not consider the standard that "women and men are equal" a superior way of thinking than the idea that "women are inferior"?

I certainly do.

I have no problem saying that I do consider the former point of view superior. Can you honestly tell me that if you were to hire/promote someone who thinks women, including you, are inferior that you would treat that person equally?

The point where you seem to draw the line, ie: being able to do the work properly, at what point is it breached? What if a male doesn't want to shake his fellow female employees hand or clearly thinks less of them. What if the female employees pick up on this and on their turn don't like to work together with them.
Are they discriminating against the discriminator? Are you discriminating for not hiring a discriminator to prevent the females from discriminating against the discriminator?

Being able to interact appropriately with colleagues is part of being able to perform a role well. But it doesn’t matter what views, attitudes, or traits cause a person to fail to interact appropriately with colleagues. If the member of staff is failing to afford female colleagues the respect they are entitled to because of a sexist attitude, they get fired. If the member of staff is bickering constantly with everyone else because of a stubborn attitude, they get fired.

I would not fire someone or deny them a raise simply on the basis of their attitudes. They would have to be expressing those attitudes at work in such a way that I or other members of staff were made to feel uncomfortable by it, or in such a way that it otherwise affected their work. I don’t see that it’s so hard to understand.

 

[wanderingone]

I don't consider ignoring someone's opinion to be discrimination. But how about you get to give someone a promotion/raise for your business or even just hire someone and you know some person discriminates a lot against women/black people/etc..
Would it influence your decision?
If so; do you consider this a bad thing?

- Ectezus

Someone being a bigot doesn't mean they discriminate, they might not be in a position to discriminate against someone.

Let's say I own a real estate business... I find out my employee refuses to show certain homes to people who are from specific ethnic backgrounds.. that person is fired.. not because they are a bigot, but because they are doing something illegal. Now if I invite my employee to an off hours party at my home and they say "No thanks, I don't really care to spend my free time with "white" people" I would think "what a jerk" but as long as they do what they are supposed to at work.. what grounds do I have to refuse them their job, they don't like me?

There's a local business run by a guy who has spasms of hatred toward the concept of "interracial" marriage. I don't care for him, and his ideas.. I don't frequent his store.. cause I don't want to hear it. That's just me choosing where to take my private business. Is that something you consider discrimination?

 

[MoonLancer]

It really depends.

suppose you rent a out a bedroom in your house. Suppose he is a Muslim fundamentalist. Everything is going well until he calls your daughter a harlot for not wearing a Berka and says he will stone her to death if she does not cover up. Should i be tolerant or be respectful of that?

At that point his discrimination and intolerance has crossed a intrinsic line. You don't need to respect or tolerate what he believes. That's where you give him the finger and show him the door.


This goes for anyone who disrespects the rights of others. see gay marriage threads for examples of peoples intolerance that should not be tolerated.

 

[Ectezus]

I would not fire someone or deny them a raise simply on the basis of their attitudes. They would have to be expressing those attitudes at work in such a way that I or other members of staff were made to feel uncomfortable by it [...]

Uncomfortable? So when someone else's opinion makes you feel 'uncomfortable' you consider that a disruption of work and therefore solid reason to fire someone?
How is that not discrimination?

Mind you, I'm not disagreeing with your example. Just with the extreme politically correctness of some people that they don't recognize their actions ever as some form of discrimination because of the idea that "Discrimination is always bad! Therefore I can't do it, ever".

- Ectezus

 

[cantata]

Uncomfortable? So when someone else's opinion makes you feel 'uncomfortable' you consider that a disruption of work and therefore solid reason to fire someone?
How is that not discrimination?

By “uncomfortable”, I don’t just mean annoying me a bit, I mean negatively affecting my work environment such that I am unable to do my job to the best of my ability.

I repeat: being able to interact appropriately with one’s colleagues is part of being able to perform one’s role. If someone on the staff persistently makes other staff members feel uncomfortable, such that they are unable to perform their own roles to the best of their abilities, then there is a problem.

If they make other staff members, male *and* female, feel uncomfortable by constantly criticising their clothing, say, that’s still inappropriate and it is still a problem.

Mind you, I'm not disagreeing with your example. Just with the extreme politically correctness of some people that they don't recognize their actions ever as some form of discrimination because of the idea that "Discrimination is always bad! Therefore I can't do it, ever".

Ah, this is a “LOL POLITICALLY [sic] CORRECTNESS IS STUPID” thread. Whatever, Ectezus. I repeat: it doesn’t matter what attitude inspires inappropriate behaviour. It is the inappropriate behaviour that is a problem. If someone has horrible views but they do not lead them to behave inappropriately, then there are no grounds for firing them.

Not rocket science.

 

[Verv]

I disagree with people but I am still kind to them and feel that they have a right to their opinion no matter what.

I have never bought into the leftist notion of persecuting anyone -- even those who are openly racist or openly sexist or even those who are openly anti-Christian.

 

[mpok1519]

but people should be protected from sexism, racism, discrimination, etc, expecially when it is conducted by the state.