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Discipline disagreements

Reformationist

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Tangnefedd said:
As parents we view our children as precious gifts from God that we have been entrusted with to raise in the fear and admonition of the Lord.

My grandfather was spouting similar sort of garbage as he beat seven bells out of his kids with the buckle end of the belt. God cannot be used as an excuse for child abuse!

LOL! Well, I'm terribly sorry that you have lumped me in with someone who "beats seven bells out of his kids with the buckle end of the belt." I am certainly not an advocate of child abuse. However, no parent who loves their children would countenance doing such a thing. That was obviously not a loving action and, if you'll check back, I did say that our motivation for spanking was the most important thing when disciplining our children.

I'm sorry that you think that the loving action of God endorsed corporeal punishment is "garbage." I'm sure you're just misunderstanding what I advocate.

God bless
 
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HeatherJay

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Tangnefedd said:
As parents we view our children as precious gifts from God that we have been entrusted with to raise in the fear and admonition of the Lord.

My grandfather was spouting similar sort of garbage as he beat seven bells out of his kids with the buckle end of the belt. God cannot be used as an excuse for child abuse!
No one in the thread is advocating child abuse. And before this gets out of control, this is not a debate forum. I certainly have NEVER used a belt or a strap to spank my kids, much less the buckle end of a belt. And, based on Reformationists posts, I'm fairly certain he hasn't either. Instead of flying off the deep end and throwing around accusations of poor parenting, take a deep breath and realize that in a Christian forum you'll most likely run into people who believe in Bible based discipline (and don't used extreme examples...there are people everywhere who twist the Bible to fit their evil purposes). If you disagree with spanking, that's fine (although you did say that you did believe in spanking for serious offenses)...but just because you disagree doesn't mean that everyone else is automatically wrong. ALL Christian opinions are welcome in this forum, but we generally don't go around insinuating that others are bad or abusive parents.

Love, Heather
 
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hisbloodformysins

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Reformist... I agree with you, I'm in tears right now. I so think discipline is necessary, I have worked with children who are completely out of control, and it's because they're either abused, or not disciplined properly, occassionally it may be a result of ADHD, but even then a parent can learn to parent correctly. It is soooo hard for me though because I love my son so much and I don't like to see him in pain. I was abused physically, mentally and emotionally as a child and the main thing I want my son to know is that he is loved that is like my main goal with him. And it breaks my heart.
 
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Reformationist

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hisbloodformysins said:
Reformist... I agree with you, I'm in tears right now.

Are you in tears because you agree with me? ;)

I so think discipline is necessary, I have worked with children who are completely out of control, and it's because they're either abused, or not disciplined properly, occassionally it may be a result of ADHD, but even then a parent can learn to parent correctly.

I agree completely. That's a very wise thing to recognize. Often people are so frustrated with their children that they often just ignore their need for discipline.

It is soooo hard for me though because I love my son so much and I don't like to see him in pain.

Let me tell you a little story about a lady I know. She once told me that she "loved her children too much to spank them." I will tell you the same thing that I told her, and please understand, I am not typing this in an accusatory or judgmental manner. I'm typing in a compassionate, empathetic manner because I can see that you, like all of us, have struggled with this issue. I told that woman, and now tell you, that you love yourself too much. Again, if you have just been offended, then you took that statement the wrong way. I think every parent often loves themselves more than they love their children. It's a part of our fleshly struggle. I am often short tempered or neglectful of my children. I don't do those things because I love them so much and want to teach them viable traits like occupying themselves or being considerate of others when they're busy. On the contrary, when I do those things I do them because I am putting myself before my children. Sometimes that is okay. However, when we do that it should be because we have the child's best interests at heart. That particular woman thought that she loved her children "too much" to spank them when they needed it. The truth was that she didn't want to have to deal with the feelings that spanking her children provoked in her. If she truly loved her children "too much" then she would disregard how proper parenting made her "feel" and do it because it's important to their growth and development. That's what true "agape" love is hisbloodformysins. Real love is ALWAYS giving the recipient of your actions that which they most NEED with no regard for yourself. If that which they most need is a spanking, then that's what you give, and you don't think of how their actions made you mad or how spanking them makes you feel bad. If they need a hug and grace and mercy most, then give that. Just remember, the Gospel is very clear about the loving response to inappropriate behavior:

Proverbs 13:24
He who spares his rod hates his son,
But he who loves him disciplines him promptly.

The Bible tells us that withholding discipline when it's needed is a sign of NOT loving our child. If we love our child we will discipline them promptly and give no consideration to how their wrong affected us, nor consider how their punishment makes us "feel."

I will tell you that if you always view spanking as just another tool that you lovingly use to mold your child into a godly adult then you will always do fine. I also think it's important to understand that spanking is NOT a punishment. It is a parents way of discipling their child for a specific indescretion. One reason, and ONE reason ONLY. Though this "one reason" is a catagory rather than an offense I will be happy to share my knowledge if you are interested.

I was abused physically, mentally and emotionally as a child and the main thing I want my son to know is that he is loved that is like my main goal with him. And it breaks my heart.

Believe me, if you want your child to know you love him then discipline him when he needs it and make sure you do it because you are trying to mold him into a godly man. Obviously the physical portion of dealing with your child's rebellion may be difficult for you. It used to be difficult for my wife for the same reasons. However, once she learned to separate the concept of PROPER administration of corporal punishment, what we do, from the ungodly things that she went through then she really had no problem with it.

If you have any questions feel free to ask.

God bless,
Don
 
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hisbloodformysins

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Yesterday I put this into practice. When my hubby got onto my son, or if my son experianced the slightest discomfort, he'd run to me for comfort, holding out his arms and crying. I have never realized this before, but my coddling of him has conditioned him to depend on me to make all his hurts go away. So yesterday I refused to pick him up. I told him I loved him and patted his head and stroked his hair, but I refused to pick him up. And he cried so frantically and continually because of this. But although I love my son and do want to hold him, I don't want to do it when he's upset about something or when he's in trouble (unless of course he falls down and really hurts himself) because I don't want him to depend on me that way. After he calms and gets over it I'll hold him and love on him while we are playing some game or something..... but this might actually make it easier for me to go to work and teach him over time that it's not the end of the world when I leave...so I can leave in peace. My son needs to learn coping. My hubbies right, it will make him weaker- not the kind of weak that says "boy, stop crying, crying is for sissies" but he has to learn to cope with frustrations, and if I cushion it everytime he feels frustrated over the slightest thing than he will always make a bigger deal out of things than they are I suppose. So, it's been trying, because I just started this, it's new to him and he cried a lot yesterday, having tantrums over it. And I occassionally told him firmly "no, I'm not going to hold you". And I spanked him yesterday also for something and put him in time out because of the huge tantrum he was having over it. I do want my son to learn self control and appropriate behaviors. It made me feel stronger myself and not worry about him so much (which he feeds into) and with my support of my hubby, and us working together will provide a better evironment and boundaries for my son. Thanks for your help (my hubby still thinks I don't spank him hard enough) but atleast I'm working on discipline..... Well, now we'll be undertaking breaking him from using his crib to using the toddler bed, because the crib is becoming unsafe for him. That'll be fun, any suggestions??
 
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selune

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Sounds like things here are starting to work out. Remember also, it's not necessary to spank hard to get the message across. Continue to be united with your husband on raising your child.

As to toddler bed, we made a big deal of it being a "princess" bed or "knight" bed with our kids. Let them pick out a special travel size pillow and a set of sheets (not real expensive) and then kept praising them when they stayed in bed. Best wishes.
 
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Reformationist

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hisbloodformysins said:
Yesterday I put this into practice. When my hubby got onto my son, or if my son experianced the slightest discomfort, he'd run to me for comfort, holding out his arms and crying. I have never realized this before, but my coddling of him has conditioned him to depend on me to make all his hurts go away. So yesterday I refused to pick him up. I told him I loved him and patted his head and stroked his hair, but I refused to pick him up. And he cried so frantically and continually because of this. But although I love my son and do want to hold him, I don't want to do it when he's upset about something or when he's in trouble (unless of course he falls down and really hurts himself) because I don't want him to depend on me that way. After he calms and gets over it I'll hold him and love on him while we are playing some game or something..... but this might actually make it easier for me to go to work and teach him over time that it's not the end of the world when I leave...so I can leave in peace. My son needs to learn coping. My hubbies right, it will make him weaker- not the kind of weak that says "boy, stop crying, crying is for sissies" but he has to learn to cope with frustrations, and if I cushion it everytime he feels frustrated over the slightest thing than he will always make a bigger deal out of things than they are I suppose. So, it's been trying, because I just started this, it's new to him and he cried a lot yesterday, having tantrums over it. And I occassionally told him firmly "no, I'm not going to hold you".

That sounds like a very good start hisbloodformysins. Let me tell you, it will be quite hard at first. It may seem like all he does is cry. Please be patient and remember that your son has spent the last two years expecting a certain response from you and it will take some time for him to learn this new expectation. WITH REGARD TO HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH YOU, understand that this is a transitional period for him and I encourage you to avoid spanking him for being upset that you won't coddle him, unless he is clearly out of control, i.e., throwing a fit. Let me stress the fact that I am ONLY talking about the way he is responding to the change in your relationship. You should continue to train him as you always have in other areas. Give him some time, this depends on how often he looks to you to coddle him when he gets in trouble, and when you believe he has grasped the concept that manipulating mom is not allowed, then it becomes willful disobedience, which means that you should spank him for it.

And I spanked him yesterday also for something and put him in time out because of the huge tantrum he was having over it.

See, now this is good parenting. Parenting often requires creative methods of punishment. You did perfect with this episode. The reason is say that is twofold. First, as I said before, you dealt with his willful disobedience, i.e., stopping him from breaking your rule of no tantrums, and punished his inappropriate behavior with quiet time. The reason that this is so good is because the punishment, quiet time/time out (this should be a period of seclusion), directly dealt with an outburst. So, in effect, he had to practice controlling himself because he didn't control himself. That's perfect. I don't know how long you leave your son in time out but a good measure is one minute of controlling his emotions for every minute of their life.

Remember, the punishment should directly relate to the transgression. For instance, if your child keeps putting their hands on stuff that they are not supposed to touch, you take away some toys that they are allowed to touch for a period of time. When my son touches the T.V. I don't let him watch T.V. for an hour.

I do want my son to learn self control and appropriate behaviors. It made me feel stronger myself and not worry about him so much (which he feeds into) and with my support of my hubby, and us working together will provide a better evironment and boundaries for my son.

I agree completely. And, at the risk of sounding cliché, the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. You've started so as long as you stick with it and are consistant it will come to pass a lot quicker than you think, especially since both you and your husband are responding in the same/similar manner to inappropriate behavior.

Thanks for your help (my hubby still thinks I don't spank him hard enough) but atleast I'm working on discipline.....

Here's the general rule, woman never spank hard enough and men spank too hard. Here's a good gauge, your child, especially at two, should know they've been spanked. Yes, crying will normally accompany a spanking, so get ready. You should only spank about 3 or 4 times but it should be firm, moreso if your child wears a diaper. Allow the crying to go for a few minutes and then have them dry it up. Children often try to manipulate with tears, especially their moms.

Well, now we'll be undertaking breaking him from using his crib to using the toddler bed, because the crib is becoming unsafe for him. That'll be fun, any suggestions??

I take it your son's crib doesn't convert into a bed? If not, take your son with you to pick the "big boy" bed out. If he feels like he is part of the process of picking out the bed he is less likely to fight against it. Also, get a safety rail/guard that partially slides under the mattress. Toddlers have been enclosed on four sides while sleeping prior to getting in a regular bed. The safety rail will protect them and help them feel like the transition is not so abrupt. After a month or so, take the rail out and put cushions on the floor beside their bed. After another month, remove the cushions.

Gradual is the key.

Again, good job with your son.

God bless
 
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HeatherJay

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hisbloodformysins said:
Yesterday I put this into practice. When my hubby got onto my son, or if my son experianced the slightest discomfort, he'd run to me for comfort, holding out his arms and crying. I have never realized this before, but my coddling of him has conditioned him to depend on me to make all his hurts go away. So yesterday I refused to pick him up. I told him I loved him and patted his head and stroked his hair, but I refused to pick him up. And he cried so frantically and continually because of this. But although I love my son and do want to hold him, I don't want to do it when he's upset about something or when he's in trouble (unless of course he falls down and really hurts himself) because I don't want him to depend on me that way. After he calms and gets over it I'll hold him and love on him while we are playing some game or something..... but this might actually make it easier for me to go to work and teach him over time that it's not the end of the world when I leave...so I can leave in peace. My son needs to learn coping. My hubbies right, it will make him weaker- not the kind of weak that says "boy, stop crying, crying is for sissies" but he has to learn to cope with frustrations, and if I cushion it everytime he feels frustrated over the slightest thing than he will always make a bigger deal out of things than they are I suppose. So, it's been trying, because I just started this, it's new to him and he cried a lot yesterday, having tantrums over it. And I occassionally told him firmly "no, I'm not going to hold you". And I spanked him yesterday also for something and put him in time out because of the huge tantrum he was having over it. I do want my son to learn self control and appropriate behaviors. It made me feel stronger myself and not worry about him so much (which he feeds into) and with my support of my hubby, and us working together will provide a better evironment and boundaries for my son. Thanks for your help (my hubby still thinks I don't spank him hard enough) but atleast I'm working on discipline..... Well, now we'll be undertaking breaking him from using his crib to using the toddler bed, because the crib is becoming unsafe for him. That'll be fun, any suggestions??
Awesome job :) It's so obvious how much you love your little one. And maybe if your husband feels that you are supporting him in this issue, that the two of you are working together, maybe it will help you guys grow closer to each other in other areas.

Big kid beds...well, we didn't bother with toddler beds, we went straight to twin beds. Toddler beds seemed like a waste of money, since they're only toddlers for a year and a half or so. I would suggest pushing one side of the bed against the wall...gives them more of a feeling of security and also, that's one less side they can roll off of. ;) Also, just make the whole experience fun. Let him go shopping for his new bed, pick out some snuggly sheets (I'm a huge fan of flannel sheets for kids, they're so soft and warm). Then, lay in bed with him and read stories together, say his prayers (and you say yours...you're gonna need 'em ;)), sing him songs, whatever you guys do before bed...just make sure that it's a comforting, loving experience. Give him a nightlight if he doesn't already have one. And don't get angry at him if it takes him a while to adjust to his new bed. Children love consistency and it's very stressful for them when things change suddenly. Good luck, girl. :)

Love, Heather
 
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daphndon

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HeatherJay said:
Big kid beds...well, we didn't bother with toddler beds, we went straight to twin beds. Toddler beds seemed like a waste of money, since they're only toddlers for a year and a half or so.

I would still consider the toddler beds. They are not expensive and they have the safety rails built in. You can get a very cute and colorful one at Wal-Mart for $20 to $30 and you don't have to buy a mattress because you use the one from your crib. Also if your sons room is themed you can continue to use the crib set you have already. Another big reason is that I have a two year old also, so I know how many mornings I have to change the sheets because of an overfilled or leaky diaper. I have tons of crib sheets but if I had gotten a twin bed I would have had to buy not only a whole new bed set but also spares. I will tell you I have 3 kids (8,6, and 2) and they were all completely overjoyed with their toddler beds because they could get in and out of them on their own.

As to the other (spanking). I agree with Reformationist and HeatherJay, but I can understand hisbloodformysins' struggle. I have been there and felt the exact same. My husband (Reformationist) has been the disiplinarian from the beginning. Even though I know that everything he says is correct I still struggle. My sweet, smart, beautiful two year old would walk all over me if and when I let him. He does NOT mess with Dad though. I, as a mom, will always feel over protective of my babies, but if I really thought that my husband was wrong why do I use him as my threatening tool. You know, like I will always say "I am telling Daddy". Reformationist is not wrong when he spanks our children in a loving way, but I definitely am wrong when I don't.

God Bless
 
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HeatherJay

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daphndon said:
I would still consider the toddler beds. They are not expensive and they have the safety rails built in. You can get a very cute and colorful one at Wal-Mart for $20 to $30 and you don't have to buy a mattress because you use the one from your crib. Also if your sons room is themed you can continue to use the crib set you have already. Another big reason is that I have a two year old also, so I know how many mornings I have to change the sheets because of an overfilled or leaky diaper. I have tons of crib sheets but if I had gotten a twin bed I would have had to buy not only a whole new bed set but also spares. I will tell you I have 3 kids (8,6, and 2) and they were all completely overjoyed with their toddler beds because they could get in and out of them on their own.

As to the other (spanking). I agree with Reformationist and HeatherJay, but I can understand hisbloodformysins' struggle. I have been there and felt the exact same. My husband (Reformationist) has been the disiplinarian from the beginning. Even though I know that everything he says is correct I still struggle. My sweet, smart, beautiful two year old would walk all over me if and when I let him. He does NOT mess with Dad though. I, as a mom, will always feel over protective of my babies, but if I really thought that my husband was wrong why do I use him as my threatening tool. You know, like I will always say "I am telling Daddy". Reformationist is not wrong when he spanks our children in a loving way, but I definitely am wrong when I don't.

God Bless
Good points about a toddler bed. We already had bunches of twin sheets (from my college dorm days ;)) so, that wasn't an issue. Also, we had bed frames that were very low to the floor, and we bought bed rails...funny how they seem to migrate toward the un-railed part of the bed, regardless. ;)

It's nice to meet you, Mrs. Reformationist. :)

Love, Heather
 
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Reformationist

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daphndon said:
I would still consider the toddler beds. They are not expensive and they have the safety rails built in. You can get a very cute and colorful one at Wal-Mart for $20 to $30 and you don't have to buy a mattress because you use the one from your crib. Also if your sons room is themed you can continue to use the crib set you have already. Another big reason is that I have a two year old also, so I know how many mornings I have to change the sheets because of an overfilled or leaky diaper. I have tons of crib sheets but if I had gotten a twin bed I would have had to buy not only a whole new bed set but also spares. I will tell you I have 3 kids (8,6, and 2) and they were all completely overjoyed with their toddler beds because they could get in and out of them on their own.

As to the other (spanking). I agree with Reformationist and HeatherJay, but I can understand hisbloodformysins' struggle. I have been there and felt the exact same. My husband (Reformationist) has been the disiplinarian from the beginning. Even though I know that everything he says is correct I still struggle. My sweet, smart, beautiful two year old would walk all over me if and when I let him. He does NOT mess with Dad though. I, as a mom, will always feel over protective of my babies, but if I really thought that my husband was wrong why do I use him as my threatening tool. You know, like I will always say "I am telling Daddy". Reformationist is not wrong when he spanks our children in a loving way, but I definitely am wrong when I don't.

God Bless

Great post hon. You sure are smart, especially when you're praising me. ;) :D

Love ya!
 
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Swtsnshyn

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daphndon said:
As to the other (spanking). I agree with Reformationist and HeatherJay, but I can understand hisbloodformysins' struggle. I have been there and felt the exact same. My husband (Reformationist) has been the disiplinarian from the beginning. Even though I know that everything he says is correct I still struggle. My sweet, smart, beautiful two year old would walk all over me if and when I let him. He does NOT mess with Dad though. I, as a mom, will always feel over protective of my babies, but if I really thought that my husband was wrong why do I use him as my threatening tool. You know, like I will always say "I am telling Daddy". Reformationist is not wrong when he spanks our children in a loving way, but I definitely am wrong when I don't.

God Bless
Very good post! We have two grown daughters and a son still at home, and I can definitely relate!

As for the issue of spanking, I agree with Reformationist and HeatherJay, too.
Also, one thing that I have learned is that a child of 2 is not too young to know how to manipulate people. I have seen this with our own children and with our granddaughter who will be 1 1/2 in a week. After all, we are all born with a flesh and want what we want when we want it. As parents, one of our jobs is to teach our children that they need to be in control of the flesh; not the ways of the flesh controlling them. This is one of the most difficult tasks we have as parents. Thank God we can get guidance from Him!!



God Bless!!
Dawn
Shining brightly for Jesus
 
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daphndon

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HeatherJay said:
It's nice to meet you, Mrs. Reformationist. :)

Love, Heather

It is nice to meet you too Heather. I really enjoy your posts.

Reformationist said:
Great post hon. You sure are smart, especially when you're praising me. ;) :D

Love ya!

Thanks Don, but are you insinuating that I am not as intelligent when not praising you? Are you calling me fat? J/K I love you too. ;)
 
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hisbloodformysins

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Thanks everyone. Reformationist... your post has really helped me, I was feeling so confused by my emotions, and I have always agreed with that. It's hard to see my two year old as being able to handle things like that and make good decisions because when I see him, I see a sweet innocent baby still who lacks the ability to cope with his feelings. But this has given me so much relief to not feel so much guilt or worry over these things, because I do need to expect my son to learn to control himself. Anyways, nice to meet you Ms. reformationist....
About toddler beds. We have a toddler bed with glow in the dark stars on it and I have wanted to go with a star theme, and all his toys were in the living room because well, there was no room in his room. So we went shopping, bought a new toy box and glow in the dark stars for his wall. I took the crib down, rearranged everything, my son helped me and enjoyed it- he helped put all the toys in his toy box, and got on his bed to help put up the stars which he really enjoyed, so there are stars over his bed at his level that he did :) Well, the first night he decided to sleep on the floor, we had to let him cry it out a little bit. We put a safety gate in his doorway, but I found out that he can get over that if he's mad enough. So we've had to also close the door. But I made sure to put away any toys small enough to choke on and he has a night light. Thanks everyone. God Bless. Hisbloodformysins
 
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HeatherJay

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hisbloodformysins said:
Thanks everyone. Reformationist... your post has really helped me, I was feeling so confused by my emotions, and I have always agreed with that. It's hard to see my two year old as being able to handle things like that and make good decisions because when I see him, I see a sweet innocent baby still who lacks the ability to cope with his feelings. But this has given me so much relief to not feel so much guilt or worry over these things, because I do need to expect my son to learn to control himself. Anyways, nice to meet you Ms. reformationist....
About toddler beds. We have a toddler bed with glow in the dark stars on it and I have wanted to go with a star theme, and all his toys were in the living room because well, there was no room in his room. So we went shopping, bought a new toy box and glow in the dark stars for his wall. I took the crib down, rearranged everything, my son helped me and enjoyed it- he helped put all the toys in his toy box, and got on his bed to help put up the stars which he really enjoyed, so there are stars over his bed at his level that he did :) Well, the first night he decided to sleep on the floor, we had to let him cry it out a little bit. We put a safety gate in his doorway, but I found out that he can get over that if he's mad enough. So we've had to also close the door. But I made sure to put away any toys small enough to choke on and he has a night light. Thanks everyone. God Bless. Hisbloodformysins
I'm so proud of you :)
 
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Reformationist

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daphndon said:
Thanks Don, but are you insinuating that I am not as intelligent when not praising you? Are you calling me fat? J/K I love you too. ;)

Of course not dear...

You're so smart, I'm so stupid. You're so beautiful, I'm not very attractive. You're very cool, I'm a big dork.

Babe, you do understand that no one is going to understand that that little exchange except us, right? Everyone else, think Happy Gilmore.

/me wanders off trying to figure out how he walked into that one. :D :D
 
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HeatherJay

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Reformationist said:
Of course not dear...

You're so smart, I'm so stupid. You're so beautiful, I'm not very attractive. You're very cool, I'm a big dork.

Babe, you do understand that no one is going to understand that that little exchange except us, right? Everyone else, think Happy Gilmore.
Hehe...you guys sound like me and Mark (my hubby). He pulls the Happy Gilmore lines out when he's really trying to suck up. ;) I mean, how's a girl to argue with that logic??

Another of his favorite lines when he's trying to crack me up after an argument..."Stop looking at me, Swan!" Which makes no sense to anyone listening, but it's from Billy Madison. LOL, oh how I love that man! (my hubby, not Adam Sandler ;))

You guys are so cute...your kiddies are lucky to have such positive examples as parents. :)

Love, Heather
 
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Heidilein

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I have to say, I'm quite surprised that so many people feel that spanking is useful and effective. In my oppinion, spanking is a reaction of the parent out of frustration or anger. There are many other ways to discipline a child that don't involve hitting. If a child of two is throwing a tantrum it's due to his struggle for attention. My parents *never* used spanking to stop a tantrum or to discipline. If a tantrum was being thrown it was highly ignored. I would rather learn (and have my child learn) not to engage in such behavior because he knows it's going to be ignored rather than because he's terrified he'll be hit.
 
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