Direct experience vs belief

TreasureHunter12 · Mar 1, 2016

When we put our hand on a hot stove, pain tells us to remove it. When we haven't eaten in awhile, our hunger pain signals for us to go get food. Pain calls for us to act or make a change. It doesn't say to continue course or remain complacent. Can you see this?

Now, when are the times when we are the most open minded about our belief system? It's almost always during times when we experience pain right? The deeper that we are hurting, the more likely we are to contemplate the big questions (Is this really all there is to life, why are things the way they are, is there a God). Even if you aren't a religious person and don't think much about, enough suffering will make you start asking those questions.

Christianity teaches the way to properly exercise faith is to continue to believe when faced with doubt. When times are tough, that is when you should double-down and dive deeper into your Christian beliefs. Other religions have similar teachings.

However, this ignores the idea that pain calls for action and change. If all that was required of us was to stay the course in the face of doubt, then doubt could come at any time. It could come when we are thriving, but this isn't how it works. Doubt and pain come at us together. There are two messages: one message calls for change and the other message indicates what to change.

Which should we listen to? Should we trust a belief system or should we trust our direct experiences? Is faith about staying with what is known and comfortable? Or is it about going into uncertainty and darkness, trusting that you'll find your way?

SkyWriting · Mar 1, 2016

TreasureHunter12 said:
When we put our hand on a hot stove, pain tells us to remove it. When we haven't eaten in awhile, our hunger pain signals for us to go get food. Pain calls for us to act or make a change. It doesn't say to continue course or remain complacent. Can you see this?

Now, when are the times when we are the most open minded about our belief system? It's almost always during times when we experience pain right? The deeper that we are hurting, the more likely we are to contemplate the big questions (Is this really all there is to life, why are things the way they are, is there a God). Even if you aren't a religious person and don't think much about, enough suffering will make you start asking those questions.

Christianity teaches the way to properly exercise faith is to continue to believe when faced with doubt. When times are tough, that is when you should double-down and dive deeper into your Christian beliefs. Other religions have similar teachings.

However, this ignores the idea that pain calls for action and change. If all that was required of us was to stay the course in the face of doubt, then doubt could come at any time. It could come when we are thriving, but this isn't how it works. Doubt and pain come at us together. There are two messages: one message calls for change and the other message indicates what to change.

Which should we listen to? Should we trust a belief system or should we trust our direct experiences? Is faith about staying with what is known and comfortable? Or is it about going into uncertainty and darkness, trusting that you'll find your way?

It's about going through trials without going alone.
God only asks that you bring Him along during
your good and bad times so He can provide the
comfort of you not being alone.

There is no call to wallow in misery and pain longer as
you seem to indicate.

TreasureHunter12 · Mar 1, 2016

SkyWriting said:
It's about going through trials without going alone.
God only asks that you bring Him along during
your good and bad times so He can provide the
comfort of you not being alone.

There is no call to wallow in misery and pain longer as
you seem to indicate.

Do you care to address the questions in the OP or mention what part you disagree with? You're simply throwing a belief at me.

SkyWriting · Mar 1, 2016

TreasureHunter12 said:
Do you care to address the questions in the OP or mention what part you disagree with? You're simply throwing a belief at me.

You mean because my answer didn't match your "this" or "that" options?
You should convert it to a poll then to restrict the responses.
So your post was not something you believe? That being the case, I may change my answer.

SkyWriting · Mar 1, 2016

TreasureHunter12 said:
Now, when are the times when we are the most open minded about our belief system?

During times of contemplation and discussion.

SkyWriting · Mar 1, 2016

TreasureHunter12 said:
The deeper that we are hurting, the more likely we are to contemplate the big questions (Is this really all there is to life, why are things the way they are, is there a God). Even if you aren't a religious person and don't think much about, enough suffering will make you start asking those questions.

I had shingles, considered to be worse than childbirth by some women.
It's really hard to think much about anything when you suffer.
I did consider the pain Jesus suffered at the time though.
It felt like a spike through my head and out my left hip.
And the pain had a ringing noise and a hum like electricity.

SkyWriting · Mar 1, 2016

TreasureHunter12 said:
However, this ignores the idea that pain calls for action and change.

For a moment. Then the pain lasts for weeks after that and you work to ignore it.

SkyWriting · Mar 1, 2016

TreasureHunter12 said:
Doubt and pain come at us together.

Your comments pain me and I doubt them, so you are correct.

SkyWriting · Mar 1, 2016

TreasureHunter12 said:
Should we trust a belief system or should we trust our direct experiences?

Belief system. It will get you through the tough times.

SkyWriting · Mar 1, 2016

TreasureHunter12 said:
Is faith about staying with what is known and comfortable?

It's about an ongoing relationship that grows with God.

SkyWriting · Mar 1, 2016

TreasureHunter12 said:
Or is it about going into uncertainty and darkness, trusting that you'll find your way?

Yes.

TreasureHunter12 · Mar 1, 2016

Wow, you are making a mess of this thread with all your separate posts..

SkyWriting said:
Belief system. It will get you through the tough times.

Ok, so if you were faced with direct experiences of reality that were in opposition to your current belief system, you would still trust your belief system?

Chris B · Mar 1, 2016

TreasureHunter12 said:
Now, when are the times when we are the most open minded about our belief system? It's almost always during times when we experience pain right?

No, not for me: more when I am not under any pressure and am free to contemplate and consider.
I'm a natural questioner.

Which should we listen to? Should we trust a belief system or should we trust our direct experiences? Is faith about staying with what is known and comfortable? Or is it about going into uncertainty and darkness, trusting that you'll find your way?

I can't give unqualified trust to any of those three: systems, experiences or just wandering.
There is reason to doubt and question both of the first two, and for the third, no good way is at all assured.

My direct experiences are direct experiences. What they are or might mean beyond that, that's not certain.
Bringing interpretations or understanding to them introduces the possibility of error, no matter that the opposite may be being shouted.

TreasureHunter12 · Mar 1, 2016

Chris B said:
No, not for me: more when I am not under any pressure and am free to contemplate and consider.
I'm a natural questioner.

I can't give unqualified trust to any of those three: systems, experiences or just wandering.
There is reason to doubt and question both of the first two, and for the third, no good way is at all assured.

My direct experiences are direct experiences. What they are or might mean beyond that, that's not certain.
Bringing interpretations or understanding to them introduces the possibility of error, no matter that the opposite may be being shouted.

You seem to be saying that you give 'thought' more trust than direct experience when assessing your belief system. Is that what you're saying?

TreasureHunter12 · Mar 1, 2016

I'll add the following for clarity:

I have a belief system that addresses completely what pain is and how to react to it when it happens. Then, I experience deep pain that causes me to question this entire belief system. What then?

quatona · Mar 1, 2016

TreasureHunter12 said:
I'll add the following for clarity:

I have a belief system that addresses completely what pain is and how to react to it when it happens.

Ok. Does "how to react to it" mean "how to reliably put an end to it"? Or what does it mean?

Then, I experience deep pain that causes me to question this entire belief system.

How exactly does this pain "cause you" to question your belief system?
Is it a sort of pain not covered by the belief system and its "what pain is" and "how to react to it"?

What then?

I guess when something causes you to question your belief system you will question it.

Should we trust a belief system or should we trust our direct experiences?

Seems to me like apples and oranges. Your direct experiences do not really inform you what to do. It´s the conclusions you draw (based on already existing convictions) that inform you.
Pain is typically a warning sign that something is going wrong, but that doesn´t mean it´s always the best reaction to get rid of it immediately (particularly not when it´s about emotional pain).
IOW while it´s safe to say that pain tells you that something needs to be done, it does not necessarily tell you what needs to be done.

TreasureHunter12 · Mar 1, 2016

quatona said:
IOW while it´s safe to say that pain tells you that something needs to be done, it does not necessarily tell you what needs to be done.

Pain telling us at least something needs to change is significant though isn't it? With our hand on the hot stove, the pain is saying not to keep our hand in place. Likewise, with our belief system in question, isn't the pain also signaling to us that something needs to change regarding it. It's less obvious but isn't that insight there?

quatona · Mar 1, 2016

TreasureHunter12 said:
Pain telling us at least something needs to change is significant though isn't it?

Yes, that´s what I said. It doens´t tell us necessarily what it is that needs to be changed and how to change it, though.

With our hand on the hot stove, the pain is saying not to keep our hand in place.

Yes.
1. That´s not an intellectual process, though. It´s an immediate instinctive reaction. Cognitive consideration may even inform us that there´s a better solution to the problem at hand.
2. Sometimes - even though our instinctive reaction is to immediately avoid it - it is not the best solution to act towards avoiding the pain immediately. Sometimes it´s necessary to endure it, because exactly the cure (and the change) comes with pain.
3. While identifying the cause of the pain is pretty obvious in this case, it´s way more difficult to analyse the actual cause of the pain (and the cure) when it comes to emotions, convictions or beliefs.

Likewise, with our belief system in question, isn't the pain also signaling to us that something needs to change regarding it.

Sure, pain always tells us something. It´s often hard to decipher what it is tht it tells us, though.

TreasureHunter12 · Mar 1, 2016

quatona said:
Yes, that´s what I said. It doens´t tell us necessarily what it is that needs to be changed and how to change it, though.

Yes.
1. That´s not an intellectual process, though. It´s an immediate instinctive reaction. Cognitive consideration may even inform us that there´s a better solution to the problem at hand.
2. Sometimes - even though our instinctive reaction is to immediately avoid it - it is not the best solution to act towards avoiding the pain immediately. Sometimes it´s necessary to endure it, because exactly the cure (and the change) comes with pain.
3. While identifying the cause of the pain is pretty obvious in this case, it´s way more difficult to analyse the actual cause of the pain (and the cure) when it comes to emotions, convictions or beliefs.

Sure, pain always tells us something. It´s often hard to decipher what it is tht it tells us, though.

The insight that (pain+awareness of our belief system) = insecurity in our belief system..

That's about the most I was hoping for in this thread. I see that as significant because, with this initial realization, each time in the future we experience significant pain there is a chance at chipping away at our attachment to our beliefs until we are free of them. I have adopted and eventually discarded many belief systems throughout my life and this is how I see how it happened. I believe each time we do this we get closer and closer to truth.

quatona · Mar 1, 2016

TreasureHunter12 said:
The insight that (pain+awareness of our belief system) = insecurity in our belief system..

That's about the most I was hoping for in this thread.

Cool. Just make sure you aren´t rashing to unwarranted conclusions from there.

I see that as significant because, with this initial realization, each time in the future we experience significant pain there is a chance at chipping away at our attachment to our beliefs until we are free of them.

Why would I want to be free of beliefs?
I think the most important part is that (once we assume that beliefs can cause pain) the pain is due to conflicting beliefs. This leaves some options which part of our belief-system needs to be modified, reconsidered, abolished in order to get rid of the pain...

I have adopted and eventually discarded many belief systems throughout my life and this is how I see how it happened.

Could easily be a self-fulfilling belief, though.

I believe each time we do this we get closer and closer to truth.

What´s all that got to do with "truth", out of a sudden?
I am not sure that the premise "pain points to untruth/painlessness points to truth" is correct.

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