dinosours???

[Intahstellah64]

if we where "created" than what about fossils of prehistoric life?????

 

[Ark Guy]

if we where "created" than what about fossils of prehistoric life?????

The fossils of "prehistoric life" we find are of animals that were trapped in the flood of Noah and buried in the sediment.

I hope that helps.

 

[seebs]

Er.

Well, ask a naive question, get a naive answer.

 

[Ark Guy]

Er.

Well, ask a naive question, get a naive answer.

Well folks, the ignorance of seebs shines brightly.

Of course the naive answer is this....according to the seeds crowd, if an animal dies and falls to the ground, it'll lay there for thousands upon thousands of years as the sediment from decaying trees leaves and other organic items builds up around it before it can turn into a fossil. Of course we all know it takes a long time for the strata to accumulate..right? Just ask seeds.

Then a better model is certainly the flood. You know seeds, rapid burial. Unlike your model where the animal dies and rots away long before it has an chance to even begin to fossilize.

Basically seeds, your model fails. You need a quick burial...hmmmmm. seems like seeds is the naive one after all.

 

[Vance]

Your tone just oozes Christianity Ark Guy.

The rarity of fossilization is why we have relatively so few fossils. Funny how the Creationists argue on the one hand that if evolution were true we would have incredibly more fossils than we do (ignoring the rare circumstances that would give rise to a fossil), then as here argue that such rarity would PRECLUDE fossils from happening as we see them.

Disengenuous, to say the least.

More importantly the flood concept of depositing fossils simply doesn't fit the evidence we have, and the evidence we have fits evolution like a glove. We have fossils showing up in exactly the strata would expect to find them in almost every case, but not AT ALL as the flood would deposit them. Then you add in the fact that radiometric dating shows the stratas to be progressively older the further down we go, etc, etc, etc, and you see that the flood just won't work.

And that is just one falsification of the flood. You can check out a number of threads on the science forum entitled "X falsifies a worldwide flood" for all the details.

Christian geologists established the age of the earth to be vastly greater than "in the thousands" almost 200 years ago and nothing has been presented to reverse this conclusion.

 

[Ark Guy]

Of course considering that seeds is an evo buddy...you can't blast him for his comment.


How typical.

Oh, to be honest, I really don't care what christian geologist did 200 years ago.

Science has changed a tad since then vance...but then again you already knew that.

NEXT

 

[notto]

I don't think the last 200 years of science has done much to improve the already falsified theory of a young earth.

 

[seebs]

Well folks, the ignorance of seebs shines brightly.

Have you read any of the forum rules? I ask merely for information.

Of course the naive answer is this....according to the seeds crowd, if an animal dies and falls to the ground, it'll lay there for thousands upon thousands of years as the sediment from decaying trees leaves and other organic items builds up around it before it can turn into a fossil. Of course we all know it takes a long time for the strata to accumulate..right? Just ask seeds.

Ooh! You're misspelling my name, after spelling it right once just to prove that any later misspellings were intentional insults. Woo! Gotta love that Christian morality at work!

This seems like a ridiculous straw man. Most creatures, as noted, decay rather than fossilizing. It is only occasional creatures which happen to end up buried in such a way that they can fossilize. This is why, even though we hypothesize that there may have been thousands of a given animal alive, we may have only a handful of fossils of it.

Then a better model is certainly the flood. You know seeds, rapid burial. Unlike your model where the animal dies and rots away long before it has an chance to even begin to fossilize.

If that were my model, you would almost have a point. However, then, I'd need to explain why things were buried in strata hundreds of feet deep, always sorted in order so that the ones in the middle had characteristics between those of the ones below them and the one above them.

Basically seeds, your model fails. You need a quick burial...hmmmmm. seems like seeds is the naive one after all.

A flood could give you a quick burial of one strata. It couldn't do multiple carefully-sorted strata, without specific, active, intervention to sort all sorts of creatures by strata, and even then, we'd have other problems.

The flood is geologically unsustainable.

 

[TheBear]

First in a series....

Well, ask a naive question, get a naive answer.

Which triggered this....

Well folks, the ignorance of seebs shines brightly.

And followed up with this.....

Your tone just oozes Christianity Ark Guy.

Will everyone please calm down a little. Address the OP question. Discuss differences. But please keep the personal digs out of it. Okay?

 

[Buck72]

To answer Intahstellah64 's question, as best as I may, the Bible is highly complementary to dinosaurs. In Job 41, the Leviathan is mentioned as an obvious creature that we no longer see today. Same thing with Behemoth, also mention in the previous chapter (Job 40).

These are big, powerful critters, and may very well be akin to dinosaur fossil evidence found today.

Prior to the flood, the earth was a vastly different place than it is today. As has been theorized by some creationists regarding the canopy of water described in Gen 1:6, higher atmospheric pressure would have supported the larger creatures like the brontosauraus, diplodicus, et al. It is of concern to note that these massive creatures had nostrils similar in size to horses yet with about 50 to 100 times the mass! It would be a tremendous challenge just for that massive thing to breathe, much less to survive into a post-Flood world.

Also, since reptiles continue to grow their whole life, and we see Adam and his pre-Flood descendants living to be 900+ years of age...I'll assert that lizards got to be pretty dang big in 900 years!

 

[Chi_Cygni]

Buck72,

You have got annoyed when I accused you of little physics knowledge but here I see you giving credence to the vapour canopy theory. Also your dinosaur physiology seems lacking.

Just where did you do your physics, to have forgotten even basic high school science?

And human physiology for that matter.

 

[Buck72]

Buck72,

You have got annoyed when I accused you of little physics knowledge but here I see you giving credence to the vapour canopy theory. Also your dinosaur physiology seems lacking.

Just where did you do your physics, to have forgotten even basic high school science?

And human physiology for that matter.

No annoyance here Dr. Chi, anymore than you've shown others in here that disagree with you.

I do have a question for you though. May I ask where the THEORIES (I identified my position as theory, not necessarily fact) that I have suggested have scientific fallacy? And how, through a few, small Biblically-sound statements you can amass the wherewithal to conclude my great dearth of reason and impotent scientific prowess?

I'm still reeling with amazement that you, an obviously educated man, identify yourself with Christianity and yet (my observation) seem to completely disregard anything and everything to do with the Bible.

Now, I'll explain my science, if you'll explain where you can conclude with certainty that the Bible is false. Is this 'wisdom' from God, or from man?

If this wisdom to disregard scripture is given of God, then please! Tell us that we may correct ourselves and align our faith with that of Christ, in the way He REALLY meant for us to.

OR,

If it is from man, then by all means, explain how your faith in man, and his errancy is more worthy of your regard than God?


Pro 29:25 The fear of man brings a snare, But he who trusts in the LORD will be exalted.

Deu 8:6 "Therefore, you shall keep the commandments of the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to fear Him.

Deu 13:4 "You shall follow the LORD your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him.

Deu 17:19 "It shall be with him and he shall read it all the days of his life, that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, by carefully observing all the words of this law and these statutes,

Deu 28:58 "If you are not careful to observe all the words of this law which are written in this book, to fear this honored and awesome name, the LORD your God,

Deu 28:59 then the LORD will bring extraordinary plagues on you and your descendants, even severe and lasting plagues, and miserable and chronic sicknesses.

Deu 28:60 "He will bring back on you all the diseases of Egypt of which you were afraid, and they will cling to you.

Deu 28:61 "Also every sickness and every plague which, not written in the book of this law, the LORD will bring on you until you are destroyed.

 

[Chi_Cygni]

Personally I find the Bible rife with errors, especially in the scientific arena. I treat the Bible as an allegory.


But this is not the Apologetics or Eschatology forum.

But I saw above your possible acceptance of the vapour canopy nonsense, a theory that does not pass even a cursory muster from a basic physics standpoint. It is a ludicrous hypothesis.

I saw you post on the laws of thermodynamics that seemed full of errors and misconceptions.

The unfortunate thing is many scientists have an imperfect understanding of thermodynamics which leads to these errors even being perpetuated by many basic science textbooks.

The whole entropy being an order/disorder measure is cr*p.

 

[Buck72]

Personally I find the Bible rife with errors, especially in the scientific arena. I treat the Bible as an allegory.

Nowhere, and I mean absolutely nowhere in the Bible does it claim allegorical application, inference or intent.

I take it literal. One of us is wrong. I'll concede that I am wrong if it can be shown scripturally that literal is all that there is to bank on. As I've stated elsewhere, if it is non-literal, it (the word) tells you it is non-literal (ie: parable, vision, dream, etc) - Even then the application is literal!

But this is not the Apologetics or Eschatology forum.

Nope, but still a forum open to Christians only to discuss matters of origin. The Bible is fair game.

But I saw above your possible acceptance of the vapour canopy nonsense, a theory that does not pass even a cursory muster from a basic physics standpoint. It is a ludicrous hypothesis.

That's fine to disagree with me, I'm not claiming it to be fact either. Gen 1:6 describes a world that no longer exists. The laws of physics, time, gravity, heat transfer, atmospheric pressures, soil, animals, the amount of water, even the very elements may have been subject to MAJOR change following a global flood. We do not know how drastic those changes would have been except as they have been recorded for us:

Gen 7:10 It came about after the seven days, that the water of the flood came upon the earth.

Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were opened.

Gen 7:12 The rain fell upon the earth for forty days and forty nights.

Something of GLOBAL CATASTROPHIC PROPORTION occured in this passage. To say that the theory is "ludicrous" is to automatically apply today's uniformitarian assumptions to a 4,400-year-old point in history of a world that experienced a massive shift from its original creation.

I saw you post on the laws of thermodynamics that seemed full of errors and misconceptions.

What were they?

The unfortunate thing is many scientists have an imperfect understanding of thermodynamics which leads to these errors even being perpetuated by many basic science textbooks.

That is unfortunate. Must be why Lyell's crazy "geologic column" is still in there.

The whole entropy being an order/disorder measure is cr*p.

Well, it is commonly stated like that. I recall that being an essay question at some point in college...anyway, whatever name it is called, there are scientific properties to heat, force, mass, gravity, inertia, etc.

Things that are hot dissapate heat through convection, conduction, or radiation...they get cooler. Temperature seeks equilibrium (Hot/Cold).

Rocks, subject to force (wind, rain, sun, waves, friction from other rocks, etc) erode.

Things do not get better, stronger, or more organized. Call it "entropy" or call it "life" - by any name, Montague, it is just the basic facts. Stuff wears out, fades, dries up, erodes, cools off, etc, etc.

The fact that so much of evolution is predicated on reverse engineering of physical laws, is curious.


Psa 102:25 "Of old You founded the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

Psa 102:26 "Even they will perish, but You endure; And all of them will wear out like a garment; Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed.

Psa 102:27 "But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end.

 

[LilAngelHeart]

if we where "created" than what about fossils of prehistoric life?????

Ummmm.....God created them too.

 

[seebs]

The Bible never says it's literal, either.

For a long time, the Jews knew exactly how to understand the Torah; very carefully, building on the understanding of those who have gone before, and always with an eye to the possibility that you were wrong previously and are just catching on now.

This worked.

Taking it as a history text at face value doesn't.

 

[Mish]

the Bible is highly complementary to dinosaurs.

except that the bible dates the earth to a recent creation, whereas dinasaurs traditionally appear on our timelines before the earth even existed according to the bible.

Nowhere, and I mean absolutely nowhere in the Bible does it claim allegorical application

Two words: Jesus Parrables, can we put them together, doesn't that suggest God can use metaphors?

Things do not get better, stronger, or more organized.

entropy (as i understand) is the movement from choas to order, hence the movement from hot and cold to lukewarm all over.

The Bible never says it's literal, either.

interesting idea, but im pretty sure it does.

Just for the record, YES im a christian, YES, i believe in evolution, YES, im a liberal. Phantom_Llama can vouch for me.

 

[Ark Guy]

I don't think the last 200 years of science has done much to improve the already falsified theory of a young earth.

Now your ignorance on the subject is shinning through.

 

[Ark Guy]

The Bible never says it's literal, either.

For a long time, the Jews knew exactly how to understand the Torah; very carefully, building on the understanding of those who have gone before, and always with an eye to the possibility that you were wrong previously and are just catching on now.

This worked.

Taking it as a history text at face value doesn't.

The bible may not come out and in black and white say...Genesis is literal. BUT, it sure does present Genesis as literal which gives us no reason to think otherwise...unless of course you filter your bible through evolutionISM.

 

[LilAngelHeart]

What we know is that the Bible says In the Beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth. Period. That part is true, then it says the earth was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the earth. That part is true too, it's what happened between God creating the Heavens and the earth and the earth becoming without form and void that the fossils and dinasours come in. As far as the earth being created in 6 days, the Bible also says to God a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years are as a day. Plus we know that there were inhabitants on the planet before God made Adam & Eve because God told them to replenish or refill the earth. So the Bible is true, and science just fills in the gaps between the scriptures. The Bible is not a history book, it's simply God's word to us, it does not contain every single thing that ever happened in history it's purpose is to tell us about God and some of His interactions with humans. Period. I'm sure God did a lot more with a lot more people than just what's written in the Bible and I'm also sure that there's a lot more things that went on on planet earth than just what's in the Bible. People make the mistake of thinking if it's not in the Bible, then it's not true or didn't exist or something. Which isn't true. You have to remember what the purpose of God's word is.