Dinosaurs on a boat cruise

[icamewithasword]

My proposal that God does not create chaos was only in reference to His creating the heavens and the earth, as is specifically mentioned in Isa.45:18, the verse I specifically quoted. It was not in reference to the calamity God brings on the earth as an expression of His judgment on sin, as is the case in Isa.45, including verse 7.

That God created the earth to be inhabited and not empty is undeniable. That God brings calamity on that same earth as a judgment on sin is also undeniable. There is no conflict here.

In fact, your reference seem to support my theory rather than deny it: that God created the ancient earth to be inhabited and not empty, but because of some pre-historic sin God brought calamity on that ancient earth as an expression of his judgment on that sin, resulting in the chaotic conditions found in Gen.1:2.

Aahhh.....An "old-earth" believer! I posted down a bit further, but i'll say it here, too. Start with Gen 1:1 .....you know, like taught in Sunday school.....
Is your Bible missing a page?

 

[Assyrian]

We probably don't know what God really wants i.e. these verses just before vs 36:
:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
owg

It is true. We will never understand the depths of God's wisdom and knowledge. But then again, if God tells us something of his purpose, doesn't it give us a glimpse of his plans? We will never begin grasp the fullness of why God wanted to create all things for Christ, but if God tells us all things were created for Christ doesn't that means in a very real sense, they were?

Romans 11 is all about the redemption of the chosen, concluding with the "all things" reference, which means all that God has chosen to redeem from the world.

Don't forget though that this is a doxology a cry of praise to God that goes way beyond the confines of the chapter context. If you look at it in context, after looking at God plan of redemption, Paul says 'who can pay him back for all this who can give him gift?' Why can't we ever pay God back? Because all things come from him and through him, and they are all for him anyway. The all things here is the entire creation which was made for Christ. When I first read this thread my thoughts immediately went to Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. The context here is clearly the entire creation, and again we have the litany of by him, through him and for him.

 

[Assyrian]

Doveaman,

How long did it take you to come up with this? If your going to state that God only improved upon an Earth that was already formed..... It would have taken much less time for you to just type "god is a liar" and been done with it.

You can't work backwards in Genesis and expect to see truth.
Verse three is the creation of light. Verse two talks of the formless earth, just like you stated.....
NOW......wait for it, because the timeclock hasn't started yet......
Verse ONE: IN THE BEGINNING (now you can start your stopwatch) God created the heavens and earth.
START at the first verse.
FINISH at the end of verse five.
Your stopwatch should read 24hrs. If it doesn't, then your watch lies; not God!

The problem is, my stopwatch runs to the Hebrew calendar, and wants to change the date counter every evening.
Every time I get half way through verse 5 to where it says ''and the was evening...'' the date counter automatically rolls forward.
If it set it at to [ 1 ] back in Gen 1:1, it reads [ 2 ] by the time Genesis gets to ''...and there was morning the first day''
The only way I can get it to read [ 1 ] when Genesis says ''...the first day'' is to set it to [ 0 ] for the first four verses. Is my Hebrew calendar watch broken or did the six days of creation start with a day zero?

 

[Hismessenger]

A small glitch in some thinking. If you go back and look at the creation in Genesis you should see that the sun and the moon were not created until the fourth day. It says that they were given to be signs to mark off the seasons, the days and the years. Prior to this there is no relating how long the first three days were. Given that each one could have been as we know them but then each one could have been a thousand years or more. No one knows for sure but God. He is not governed by time and could have taken eons to bring the earth to the place he wanted it to be before introducing man into it.

hismessenger

 

[icamewithasword]

The problem is, my stopwatch runs to the Hebrew calendar, and wants to change the date counter every evening.
Every time I get half way through verse 5 to where it says ''and the was evening...'' the date counter automatically rolls forward.
If it set it at to [ 1 ] back in Gen 1:1, it reads [ 2 ] by the time Genesis gets to ''...and there was morning the first day''
The only way I can get it to read [ 1 ] when Genesis says ''...the first day'' is to set it to [ 0 ] for the first four verses. Is my Hebrew calendar watch broken or did the six days of creation start with a day zero?

my understanding is that you start at [0], as that would be the beginning of time. By the "time" we would reach 24hrs, we would be nearing the end of verse 5.

 

[icamewithasword]

A small glitch in some thinking. If you go back and look at the creation in Genesis you should see that the sun and the moon were not created until the fourth day. It says that they were given to be signs to mark off the seasons, the days and the years. Prior to this there is no relating how long the first three days were. Given that each one could have been as we know them but then each one could have been a thousand years or more. No one knows for sure but God. He is not governed by time and could have taken eons to bring the earth to the place he wanted it to be before introducing man into it.

hismessenger

This is a good point... but just looking at the word "day" at the end of each verse containing a passage like "there was evening and there was morning, the ____ day"; aren't they all written in original text using the same word? I think the word is "yom" or something like that, and translated to english refers to a 24 hr event or length of time.
I agree that no one knows for sure but God, as He was there, and He is timeless and is not bound by our "rules" of time. But by saying that he is not bound by time, then stating he could have taken eons (a measurement of time) would we not then be saying something like..."yeah, the Bible tells us all things were created by God in six days. But I don't believe they could have been. They probably took a lot longer than that; because I just can't believe that it could be done."
If we're going to start reading scripture at Gen 1:1 and by the time we get to Gen 1:20 we're saying..."naaawww, no way..." well, we're gonna have a VERY hard time believing anything else written in the Bible. Things like walking on water/ water to wine/ rising from the dead......
This is (to me) a leap of faith. And to me, either we believe it all whole-heatedly or else none of it can be believed.

 

[Doveaman]

Doveaman,

How long did it take you to come up with this? If your going to state that God only improved upon an Earth that was already formed..... It would have taken much less time for you to just type "god is a liar" and been done with it.

You can't work backwards in Genesis and expect to see truth.
Verse three is the creation of light. Verse two talks of the formless earth, just like you stated.....
NOW......wait for it, because the timeclock hasn't started yet......
Verse ONE: IN THE BEGINNING (now you can start your stopwatch) God created the heavens and earth.
START at the first verse.
FINISH at the end of verse five.
Your stopwatch should read 24hrs. If it doesn't, then your watch lies; not God!

I try as much as possible not to seek to comprehend the works of an INFINITE God using TIMECLOCKS and STOPWATCHES. The hands always tend to work BACKWARDS.

Base on my observations I am somewhat led to conclude that you were PRESENT in the beginning when God was constructing His planet. Where you there?

Am I to conclude that God has given us FULL knowledge of His planet? Or is it safe to say that HE DIDN'T? After all, it is His planet. He can do as He PLEASE with it.

Does He want us to know EXACTLY how old His planet is? Does it even MATTER that we know how OLD His planet is? Or should we just be THANKFUL that He allowed us to live on it, cause I don’t think we have another planet to go to. Even though we are presently trying to get to Mars. But, isn’t that HIS planet too?

Yes, there WAS or IS a beginning, but do we really know WHAT or WHO the beginning is. There is no doubt a beginning of creation, but do we know WHEN that beginning BEGAN? Or even if there was a beginning BEFORE that beginning BEGAN?

Were you PRESENT in the beginning?
Do you know WHAT the beginning was?
Did you SEE what took place in the beginning?
Do you even know WHERE the beginning is?
Did God exist FROM the beginning?
Or did He exist BEFORE the beginning?
Do you know what He BEGAN BEFORE the beginning?
Or even WHEN the beginning began?
Do you know if the beginning has ENDED?
Or if the beginning even HAS AN END?
Should we only ask ‘WHAT’ is the beginning?
Or can we also ask ‘WHO’ is the beginning?
Do you know if we are STILL IN the beginning?
Or if the beginning HAS EVEN BEGUN?

Do you KNOW?

“I am the...Beginning...” (Rev 1:8).

Is the “beginning” a ‘WHAT’ or a “WHO”? Looks like a ‘WHO’ to me.

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Gen 1:1).

Is this “beginning” a ‘WHEN’ or a ‘WHO’? Maybe it was a ‘WHO”. WHO knows?

Was the creation created AT the “beginning”? Or was it created BY the “beginning”?

Was the creation created IN the “beginning”? Or was it created INSIDE the “beginning”?

These questions always puzzle me.

Maybe you know the answers.

Do you?

This much is certain, and I’m sure we all would agree, that God created the earth with the ABILITY to be RENEWED over and over and over again. Life on earth may be REMOVED, but planet earth itself REMAINS, and that planet earth can be ‘RESURRECTED’ over and over and over again to NEW LIFE (This much is true, I’m sure), as was the case after Noah’s FLOOD; a watery DEATH, a watery BURIAL, and a “glorious” RESURRECTION to ‘NEW LIFE’.

This could have also been the case between the beginning of the “beginning” (verse 1) and the beginning of “light” (verse 3) found in Genesis 1, in that in verse 2 we see an earth DEAD and BURIED in water, then GIVEN LIFE in the following verses.

One might ask “then WHY did God not REVEAL this in scripture.” But the simple answer maybe that such REVELATIONS are not ESSENTIAL to our salvation, and, therefore, NOT NECESSARY to be revealed from a biblical PERSPECTIVE.

However, God did not LEAVE US in the DARK about such POSSIBILITIES. He GAVE us SCIENCE, which is to be RESPECTED if applied CORRECTLY, because there is much in science that REVEALS the glory of God. After all, the ENTIRE “heavens” reveal the glory of God, not just from a biblical perspective, but also from a scientific one as well.

The FOSSILS cry out and cannot be DENIED, nor can their ORIGINAL owners FIT on a forty-five foot high WOODEN boat. They were just too BIG and HEAVY, and too MANY.

But maybe you know how to make them FIT. Do you?

 

[Assyrian]

my understanding is that you start at [0], as that would be the beginning of time. By the "time" we would reach 24hrs, we would be nearing the end of verse 5.

If you start at [0] that gives an extra day of creation to add to the six numbered days, and the seventh day when God rested is actually the eighth day that has passed.

 

[icamewithasword]

I try as much as possible not to seek to comprehend the works of an INFINITE God using TIMECLOCKS and STOPWATCHES. The hands always tend to work BACKWARDS.

I don't really seek to comprehend His works, as in that frame of mind I would then ask why. I do seek to comprehend His Word.

Base on my observations I am somewhat led to conclude that you were PRESENT in the beginning when God was constructing His planet. Where you there?

No.
Am I to conclude that God has given us full knowledge of His planet? Or is it safe to say that HE DIDN'T? After all, it is His planet. He can do as HE PLEASE with it.

I conclude God has given us full knowlege (thru scripture) and that we are to believe his word.

Does He want us to know EXACTLY how old His planet is? Does it even MATTER that we know how OLD His planet is? Or should we just be THANKFUL that He allowed us to live on it, cause I don’t think we have another planet to go to. Even though we are presently trying to get to Mars. But, isn’t that HIS planet too?

If he didn't want us to know how old His earth is, He would not have told us it was created in six days. And, Yes!, we should be thankful.

Yes, there WAS or IS a beginning, but do we really know WHAT or WHO the beginning is. There is no doubt a beginning of creation, but do we know WHEN that beginning BEGAN? Or even if there was a beginning BEFORE that beginning began?

I don't know when the beginning began, but I do know (through faith) that there was nothing before the beginning. To say that there was would infer that God was not the creator.

Were you PRESENT in the beginning?No
Do you know WHAT the beginning was?Only through scripture
Did you SEE what took place in the beginning?Only by faith.
Do you even know WHERE the beginning is??
Did God exist FROM the beginning? Is the beginning
Or did He exist BEFORE the beginning?
Do you know what He BEGAN BEFORE the beginning?Nothing in scripture (that I know of), so nothing.
Or even WHEN the beginning began?
Do you know if the beginning has ENDED??
Or if the beginning even HAS AN END??
Should we only ask ‘WHAT’ is the beginning??
Or can we also ask ‘WHO’ is the beginning??
Do you know if we are STILL IN the beginning??
Or if the beginning HAS EVEN BEGUN??

Do you KNOW?

“I am the...Beginning...” (Rev 1:8).

Is the “beginning” a ‘WHAT’ or a “WHO”? Looks like a ‘WHO’ to me.

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Gen 1:1).

Is this “beginning” a ‘WHEN’ or a ‘WHO’? Maybe it was a ‘WHO”. WHO knows? The One True God knows.

Was the creation created AT the “beginning”? Or was it created BY the “beginning”?

Was the creation created IN the “beginning”? Or was it created INSIDE the “beginning”?

These questions always puzzle me.

Maybe you know the answers.

Do you?Some questions I can't answer, as I either don't know or don't understand what you're asking. But I ask that the Holy Spirit be with me and help me understand the Word. I don't look to the Science Channel.

This much is certain, and I’m sure we all would agree, that God created the earth with the ABILITY to be RENEWED over and over and over again. Life on earth may be REMOVED, but planet earth itself REMAINS, and that planet earth can be ‘RESURRECTED’ over and over and over again to NEW LIFE (This much is true, I’m sure), as was the case after Noah’s FLOOD; a watery DEATH, a watery BURIAL, and a “glorious” RESURRECTION to ‘NEW LIFE’. Rev 22:18-19 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

unless I have missed something, we are told this is the first earth. and yes, there will be another new earth. But not over and over and over again, as God will dwell with the righteous man and there will be no more death.

This could have also been the case between the beginning of the “beginning” (verse 1) and the beginning of “light” (verse 3) found in Genesis 1, in that in verse 2 we see an earth DEAD and BURIED in water, then GIVEN LIFE in the following verses.

One might ask “then WHY did God not REVEAL this in scripture.” But the simple answer maybe that such REVELATIONS are not ESSENTIAL to our salvation, and, therefore, NOT NECESSARY to be revealed from a biblical PERSPECTIVE.

However, God did not LEAVE US in the DARK about such POSSIBILITIES. He GAVE us SCIENCE, which is to be RESPECTED if applied correctly, because there is much in science that reveals the glory of God. After all, the entire “heavens” reveal the glory of God, not just from a biblical perspective, but also from a scientific one as well.

I agree God gave us science, or rather a mind to understand. And the heavens do reveal the glory of God. But "RESPECTED if applied correctly, because there is much in science that reveals the glory of God" used in this context is meaning, to me, to say we use science to justify or fortify scripture. And if science (or rather scientific theory) doesn't hold up scripture, then it's scripture that is wrong and we must interpret the scripture to hold up the scientific theory.
To that I will NEVER agree.

The fossils cry out and cannot be denied, nor can there original owners fit on a forty-five foot high wooden boat. They were just too big and heavy, and too many.
I will guess you are referring to dinosaurs here. God told Noah to take two of each kind of creature, not two of each type. And would the dinosaurs (two of them, male and female) have to be the largest, adult kind. Or could they have been younger, smaller ones?

But maybe you know how to make them fit. Do you?

Yes, but it would only be known or believed by faith. Do you?

 

[icamewithasword]

If you start at [0] that gives an extra day of creation to add to the six numbered days, and the seventh day when God rested is actually the eighth day that has passed.

Fuzzy math...?
If you start with zero (as before the beginning there was nothing (I belive)) when you get to the end of verse 5 you can count "1" (after evening and morning...this was the first day). I would be counting the days as they ended, you would be counting the days from when they started. Either way, six days.
Anyways,
What I feel is important is that there is no other way to read this part of Gen and come out with an understanding contrary to six days of creation.

 

[Assyrian]

Fuzzy math...?
If you start with zero (as before the beginning there was nothing (I belive)) when you get to the end of verse 5 you can count "1" (after evening and morning...this was the first day). I would be counting the days as they ended, you would be counting the days from when they started. Either way, six days.
Anyways,
What I feel is important is that there is no other way to read this part of Gen and come out with an understanding contrary to six days of creation.

Well you have
Day 0 which ends in the evening in verse 5
Day 1 begins with the evening in verse 5
Day 2 begins with the evening in verse 8
Day 3 begins with the evening in verse 13
Day 4 begins with the evening in verse 19
Day 5 begins with the evening in verse 23
The 6th day begins with the evening in verse 31, this is after all the creation is finished. And then we have
The 7th day when God Sabbathed in Gen 2:2&3
That is 8 days in total.

If you take these as literal Hebrew Calendar days it just doesn't fit. What Genesis calls the sixth day, is actually the seventh day and the the seventh day when God rested is the eighth day in the account. It does not fit Exodus 20:11 either For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. The six days God created the world in are not, as you would expect, the six numbered days in Genesis. In Genesis God created on days 0-5. And instead of being the model for a seven day week, Genesis covers eight days, six days of creation on days 0-5 and then a proper weekend; day six (really the seventh day ever) not doing anything in particular and then the Sabbath on the seventh day (which was really the eighth day ever). Given that Genesis does not fit the Hebrew calendar, is it possible they were just not meant to be understood as Hebrew calendar days?

 

[icamewithasword]

Well you have
Day 0 which ends in the evening in verse 5
Day 1 begins with the evening in verse 5
Day 2 begins with the evening in verse 8
Day 3 begins with the evening in verse 13
Day 4 begins with the evening in verse 19
Day 5 begins with the evening in verse 23
The 6th day begins with the evening in verse 31, this is after all the creation is finished. And then we have
The 7th day when God Sabbathed in Gen 2:2&3
That is 8 days in total.

If you take these as literal Hebrew Calendar days it just doesn't fit. What Genesis calls the sixth day, is actually the seventh day and the the seventh day when God rested is the eighth day in the account. It does not fit Exodus 20:11 either For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. The six days God created the world in are not, as you would expect, the six numbered days in Genesis. In Genesis God created on days 0-5. And instead of being the model for a seven day week, Genesis covers eight days, six days of creation on days 0-5 and then a proper weekend; day six (really the seventh day ever) not doing anything in particular and then the Sabbath on the seventh day (which was really the eighth day ever). Given that Genesis does not fit the Hebrew calendar, is it possible they were just not meant to be understood as Hebrew calendar days?

I believe they were actual days. I am not a scholar by any means, but as i understand it in the original text the word "yom" (?) is used when expressing each day. And that word can have diff meanings when used in diff context, just as "day" can have diff meaning when used in diff context. But when that word "yom" is used in the original text, it can only mean a measurement of time which was "one day" or what we know to be a 24hr day.
You aren't understanding what I was trying to say.
So lets look at it like a NASCAR race....
when the cars get the gren flag-0
then 0.1, 0.2, 0.3 and so on.....
til they come around the full first lap-1
meaning one lap finished
then 1.1, 1.2, 1.3......and so on...

Start at "0" In the beginning...created heaven and earth..Let there be light...separate light from dark...evening and morning, the first day.
Separate waters above expanse from waters under expanse and call the expanse Heaven...evening and morning, the second day.
Gather water to one place...let dry land appear, and call it Earth. Let earth sprout vegetation..trees bearing fruit...evening and morning, the third day.
Lights in heavens (sun and moon), stars...evening and morning, the fourth day.
God made all that moves in the waters and every bird...evening and morning, the fifth day.
God made beasts of the earth, livestock, and every living thing that creeps on the ground....God made man in his own image, male and female...be fruitful and multiply..have dominion over fish, birds, and every living thing that moves on earth...this was very good...evening and morning, the sixth day. (the end of the sixth day)
On the seventh day, God rested, and made that day holy.

Thats my understanding, anyways. Therefore, I believe all creation was completed at the end of day 6, and day 7 was made holy. Now, I don't know if day 1 was a Sunday or a Monday, so I don't know if the 7th day would be a Saturday or Sunday. But since I go to worship service on Sunday (no Saturday service), I try to keep that day holy...And I'm sure that is up for debate somewhere also....
God Bless!

 

[Assyrian]

I believe they were actual days. I am not a scholar by any means, but as i understand it in the original text the word "yom" (?) is used when expressing each day. And that word can have diff meanings when used in diff context, just as "day" can have diff meaning when used in diff context. But when that word "yom" is used in the original text, it can only mean a measurement of time which was "one day" or what we know to be a 24hr day.

It is the same word yom whether the day is literal or figurative.

You aren't understanding what I was trying to say.
So lets look at it like a NASCAR race....
when the cars get the gren flag-0
then 0.1, 0.2, 0.3 and so on.....
til they come around the full first lap-1
meaning one lap finished
then 1.1, 1.2, 1.3......and so on...

Sorry the only thing I know about NASCAR is that it featured on West Wing, something about cars and kissing Abbey Bartlett.

Start at "0" In the beginning...created heaven and earth..Let there be light...separate light from dark...evening and morning, the first day.
Separate waters above expanse from waters under expanse and call the expanse Heaven...evening and morning, the second day.
Gather water to one place...let dry land appear, and call it Earth. Let earth sprout vegetation..trees bearing fruit...evening and morning, the third day.
Lights in heavens (sun and moon), stars...evening and morning, the fourth day.
God made all that moves in the waters and every bird...evening and morning, the fifth day.
God made beasts of the earth, livestock, and every living thing that creeps on the ground....God made man in his own image, male and female...be fruitful and multiply..have dominion over fish, birds, and every living thing that moves on earth...this was very good...evening and morning, the sixth day. (the end of the sixth day)
On the seventh day, God rested, and made that day holy.

That would be fine if morning marked the completion of the first day. But in the Hebrew calendar, one day ended and the next began in the evening. So by the time you get to '...morning day one' you are half way into the second day. That is assuming Gen 1:1-4 takes an actual day. Either way this whole great work of creation takes place before day one of the six Genesis days even begins. But if Moses is talking Day Age then the problem disappears. They are not meant to be literal calendar days.

Thats my understanding, anyways. Therefore, I believe all creation was completed at the end of day 6, and day 7 was made holy. Now, I don't know if day 1 was a Sunday or a Monday, so I don't know if the 7th day would be a Saturday or Sunday. But since I go to worship service on Sunday (no Saturday service), I try to keep that day holy...And I'm sure that is up for debate somewhere also....
God Bless!

I go with the sabbath was made for man not man for the sabbath and just think it is a good idea to take a break once a week.

 

[icamewithasword]

Assyrian,
Just to keep from having to type too much....
Are you saying that creation didn't/ couldn't have been done in 6 days; or are you saying that my understanding of when the six days started and ended is flawed?

 

[Assyrian]

I am saying the Genesis account does not fit the Hebrew calendar and was probably not meant to describe a literal six day creation.

 

[Hismessenger]

I simply used a term with which we could relate. Eon. God is not governed by time nor is His creation as we understand it. The day could have been a thousand years or twenty four hours. To God it was all everlasting. yesterday today and tomorrow, all in the same breath.

You still believe it was a day for the word said so. But you have no idea how long for until the sun and moon came in to set the seasons, the days and the years, define what then was a day before this since there was light and the light was separated from the darkness. This is not talking about literal light but truth verses lies.

hismessenger

 

[icamewithasword]

I simply used a term with which we could relate. Eon. God is not governed by time nor is His creation as we understand it. The day could have been a thousand years or twenty four hours. To God it was all everlasting. yesterday today and tomorrow, all in the same breath.

You still believe it was a day for the word said so. But you have no idea how long for until the sun and moon came in to set the seasons, the days and the years, define what then was a day before this since there was light and the light was separated from the darkness. This is not talking about literal light but truth verses lies.

hismessenger

So, we should finish this sentence: For in God all things are possible.
with this: (except for being able to create all things in six days, because that would probably be hard to do).
I must admit, your way of understanding would be so much easier. We simple men cannot grasp the immeasurable powers of the One True God, so we look for answers for what we don't understand from other simple men that place their theories and suppositions in higher regard than The Word. In doing this, man limits the power of God.
I don't know the Hebrew words for "eon" or "millenium" or "more than can be counted". But I'm pretty sure there were other words than "yom" that could have been used to describe the "days" in Gen.
As you cannot believe in the creation as accounted for Genesis, I would then suppose you cannot believe the whole virgin birth, walking on water, water into wine, feeding 5000, healing lepers, resurrection thingies.....
What does science say about these? Or have scientists not theorized on this sufficiently for you to form an opinion?
I cannot believe that you don't see yourself as a "debunker of scripture". God is either providing us with Truth, or lies. There is no gray area, here. Has the Holy Spirit lead you to believe God lies? Or has the Holy Spirit lead you to believe you are above the Word? Is the Holy Spirit there?