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Dinosaurs?! Leviathan

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humbledbyhim

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In Job chapters 41+42, God is telling Job off, and giving him examples of things in nature that Job does not understand but God does. In the middle of putting Job in his place, God talks about leviathan, a huge creature that sounds like a dinosaur or a dragon. some will say that this is an imaginary creature, but think about this: If God is using real examples from nature to discuss how Job does not have God's understanding, why would he all fo a sudden go off into fairy land and start talking about things that don't exist? Think about it, and post your thoughts. Job 41 is printed below.



Job 41


1Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?
2Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn?
3Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee?
4Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?
5Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens?
6Shall the companions make a banquet of him? shall they part him among the merchants?
7Canst thou fill his skin with barbed irons? or his head with fish spears?
8Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more.
9Behold, the hope of him is in vain: shall not one be cast down even at the sight of him?
10None is so fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able to stand before me?
11Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine.
12I will not conceal his parts, nor his power, nor his comely proportion.
13Who can discover the face of his garment? or who can come to him with his double bridle?
14Who can open the doors of his face? his teeth are terrible round about.
15His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal.
16One is so near to another, that no air can come between them.
17They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered.
18By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.
19Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.
20Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.
21His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.
22In his neck remaineth strength, and sorrow is turned into joy before him.
23The flakes of his flesh are joined together: they are firm in themselves; they cannot be moved.
24His heart is as firm as a stone; yea, as hard as a piece of the nether millstone.
25When he raiseth up himself, the mighty are afraid: by reason of breakings they purify themselves.
26The sword of him that layeth at him cannot hold: the spear, the dart, nor the habergeon.
27He esteemeth iron as straw, and brass as rotten wood.
28The arrow cannot make him flee: slingstones are turned with him into stubble.
29Darts are counted as stubble: he laugheth at the shaking of a spear.
30Sharp stones are under him: he spreadeth sharp pointed things upon the mire.
31He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment.
32He maketh a path to shine after him; one would think the deep to be hoary.
33Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear. 34He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.
 

humbledbyhim

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PaladinValer said:
Crocodile.

Dinos have been gone for ~65 million years.

"19Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.
20Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.
21His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth. "
"31He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment.
32He maketh a path to shine after him; one would think the deep to be hoary. "

You must be right, because there are clearly many crocs with fiery breath and swimming in the deep! Way to go!:sorry:
 
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Mallon

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humbledbyhim said:
Does anyone know if dragons existed? Can you say for sure that we found fossils for every type of dinosaur that ever was and that there was never one that breathed fire? Until the answer to that question is an undeniable and unmistakable no, don't sound so arrogant.
So... you're basing your conclusion on missing evidence?
Don't count your chickens before they hatch.
 
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Paladin Dave

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A metaphor of WHAT, just out of curiousity? And maybe its just me, but I don't think a metaphor would be so convincing compared to describing a real creature, don't you think? And what of Behemoth? Whats Behemoth supposed to be? Sounds an awful lot to me like a brachiosaurus. I actually read a book on biblical support of the possibility that dinosaurs existed at the same time as man, and Behemoth and Leviathan were both mentioned. And what about that carcass that the Japanese fishermen saw, that looked like a plesiosaur carcass? Come on, we really have no idea what all still lives in our oceans. Leviathan could have really existed, and it could still exist.

We don't know that dinosaurs couldn't have contained some form of internal biochemical mechanism to produce a kind of natural napalm of sorts. Look at the bombardier beetle, for example. All we find of dinosaurs is skeletons. You cannot say for sure that they could never breathe fire, any more for sure than you can say that Brachiosaurus was could never be covered in polkadots(ridiculous, I know, but its true. The ability to produce exothermicly reacting chemicals and spray them from the mouth is a lot more useful, and thus more probable, than polkadots, if you think about it.)
 
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Gwenyfur

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PaladinValer said:
Dragons never existed.

Dinosaurs died out ~65 million years ago.

The Hebrews never even knew of beasts like the dinosaurs. Not even in their widest dreams.

Get out your apocryphah...

Those extra 2 chapters in Daniel that's there....

post 'em ;) read 'em too ;)

What else would you call it?
 
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Mallon

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Paladin Dave said:
Whats Behemoth supposed to be? Sounds an awful lot to me like a brachiosaurus.
Except Brachiosaurus was likely bigger than the willows they were supposed to have been shadowed by. And why no mention of the animal's most impressive feature -- it's long neck?
And what about that carcass that the Japanese fishermen saw, that looked like a plesiosaur carcass?
Basking shark. Even creationists will admit to this one.
All we find of dinosaurs is skeletons. You cannot say for sure that they could never breathe fire
Soft tissue tends to scar bones at attachment sites. If these dinosaurs had pouches containing separate chemicals for fire breathing, we could likely detect it on a fossil.

The Bible also refers to unicorns, for that matter. How many creation scientists do we have out there in the field right now looking for one?
 
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WAB

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Paladin Dave said:
A metaphor of WHAT, just out of curiousity? And maybe its just me, but I don't think a metaphor would be so convincing compared to describing a real creature, don't you think? And what of Behemoth? Whats Behemoth supposed to be? Sounds an awful lot to me like a brachiosaurus. I actually read a book on biblical support of the possibility that dinosaurs existed at the same time as man, and Behemoth and Leviathan were both mentioned. And what about that carcass that the Japanese fishermen saw, that looked like a plesiosaur carcass? Come on, we really have no idea what all still lives in our oceans. Leviathan could have really existed, and it could still exist.

We don't know that dinosaurs couldn't have contained some form of internal biochemical mechanism to produce a kind of natural napalm of sorts. Look at the bombardier beetle, for example. All we find of dinosaurs is skeletons. You cannot say for sure that they could never breathe fire, any more for sure than you can say that Brachiosaurus was could never be covered in polkadots(ridiculous, I know, but its true. The ability to produce exothermicly reacting chemicals and spray them from the mouth is a lot more useful, and thus more probable, than polkadots, if you think about it.)

And in addition... your dad was no dumb bell! (slight play on words).:wave:
 
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Paladin Dave

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....What?:confused:

As for Mallon:

Ok, so sauropods(sp?) are out of the question. That does not rule out Iguanadon, Maiasaurus, or the other titanic reptiles that roamed the earth.

That didn't look like a basking shark to me. It was missing the giant mouth, and those things looked a lot more like long flippers than tiny little ventral fins. Sure they aren't so tiny on a basking shark, but seriously. I refuse to believe that thing was a basking shark from just judging on the photo. It looked more like a plesiosaur than a shark of any kind.

Thats only if the pouches were attached to bone, or were even pouches, and not glands of some sort.:p Are a mustelid's musk glands attached to bone? Come on, these things could be located any where from below the jaw/in the neck to in the deepest reaches of the plumbing in their abdomen, with tracts leading up into the mouth.
 
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Mallon

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Paladin Dave said:
Ok, so sauropods(sp?) are out of the question. That does not rule out Iguanadon, Maiasaurus [sic], or the other titanic reptiles that roamed the earth.
Sure, you could make the Behemoth out to be whatever you want, really. I would consider more what it means to have a tail like a cedar, though. Cedars sway in the breeze. Perhaps this is what is meant as comparison?
That didn't look like a basking shark to me. It was missing the giant mouth
It's missing much more than that. Just look at the thing. Conveniently, supposed cryptozoolical finds like this are always thrown away because they're 'too stinky.' In any case, that idea is pretty thoroughly debunked here:
http://paleo.cc/paluxy/plesios.htm
I'm pretty sure AiG doesn't even buy the plesiosaur story.
Thats only if the pouches were attached to bone, or were even pouches, and not glands of some sort.:p Are a mustelid's musk glands attached to bone? Come on, these things could be located any where from below the jaw/in the neck to in the deepest reaches of the plumbing in their abdomen, with tracts leading up into the mouth.
If you want to keep making up "what if" stories, that's cool. But don't pretend you have any support for it beyond pure speculation.
 
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Paladin Dave

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If you want to keep making up "what if" stories, that's cool. But don't pretend you have any support for it beyond pure speculation.

I'm not. Just so long as you don't pick the closest tangible/modern/not extinct lifeform and say that its what God meant, I won't try to pass what ifs off as anything more than what I have been trying to present them as. Possibilities.
 
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jeffweeder

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PaladinValer said:
Dragons never existed.

Dinosaurs died out ~65 million years ago.

The Hebrews never even knew of beasts like the dinosaurs. Not even in their widest dreams.


So genesis is about metaphor? The geaneologies (family tree) is a metaphor?

Genesis is historical fact and 6500000000 years is a lie.

http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/3042
 
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FreezBee

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johnlf said:
What puzzles me is why are so many who don't believe the Bible posting on a Christian board? Millions of years, evolution, alligators? Just go over to a new age or Hindu board where you will find views more similar to your own.

Now, now, johnlf, being a Bible-worshipper and being a Christian doesn't mean the same (except in the mind of a Bible-worshipper :sigh: ).


Gwenyfur said:
Get out your apocryphah...

Those extra 2 chapters in Daniel that's there....

post 'em ;) read 'em too ;)

What else would you call it?

Ooh, there's the story about the dragon, but which is the other one?


Anyway, as for the OP: Leviathan is a mythological monster, the monster of the sea (read Isaiah 27:1). It was thought that although God had tied Leviathan at the bottom of the sea, he could still stamp his tail against the sea-floor causing floods.

So we should not look for any particular animal, it's simply a mythological beast, though the decsription in Job may be based on the crocodile and some other stuff. The creation story in Job is poetic and should not be read as something literal.


- FreezBee
 
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BlueJ

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Leviathan is a name of a demon, not a literal physical sea creature. Leviathans main demonic influence is with spititual pride and stopping deliverance.
Leviathan stops spiritual growth in people. They cannot pray, read their bible, they go to sleep during services. This may explain why some pleople have a strange tendency of falling a asleep in church during service. Even after a good night sleep!
Leviathan also works closely with "THE QUEEN OF HEAVEN," named Jezebel.
Here are a few words and meanings Levianthan stands for and controls.
Pride, King of the children of pride, false gifts, spiritual pride, darkness, arrogance, using logic, ego, rationlization to know thing of God, blocks the mind, hinders spiritual growth, distraction, deception, and jealousy.


 
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Gwenyfur

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Bel and the Dragon 1:26But give me leave, O king, and I shall slay this dragon without sword or staff. The king said, I give thee leave.
Bel and the Dragon 1:27Then Daniel took pitch, and fat, and hair, and did seethe them together, and made lumps thereof: this he put in the dragon's mouth, and so the dragon burst in sunder : and Daniel said, Lo, these are the gods ye worship.


Whole Chapter HERE
 
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