Dinosaurs/Dragons

[pthalomarie]

Sometimes

"Sometimes one must apply Occam's Razor." = sarcasm

Okay, so apologies will be forthcoming if you declare that you don't agree with the article from the link, because I mistakenly thought you had written the article ( my bad).

Otherwise you must then agree with the article's woeful attempt at interpreting scripture, which was done to "prove" something thus meaning that if you agree with it then you pasted the link to "prove" your point.

Or, the third option, you don't care about anything in this thread and are merely in here to post relevant information for people.

As I stated before, my original intent was simply to provide a service and be done with the thread. I'm a big believer in the idea that messageboards should provide information. Few things drive me crazier than watching an active thread where people constantly ask for information on something, and no one gives it to them. So I did a search on Google to find some crazy flat-earth site, and pasted it. The drama ends there.

Like I said before, this is not complex. The third option you gave is in fact the whole point.

As for the whole debate over whether the flat earther is a literalist, that (to me) is not the point. All that mattered to me was finding a typical representative of a flat-earther, and simply post their explanations. They could have argued that the earth is flat because of cornfields, for all I cared. So long as they represented the mainstream of their ideology, the link fulfilled the request.

 

[pthalomarie]

Dude, God is OUTSIDE time, space, matter. There is no time in heaven. When you enter heaven, you are just there. There is no advancement in time in heaven.

Then why did you say that a God who created the universe over billions of years would have to be (in your words) "a retarded god who can't get it right in the first place"?

If time doesn't matter, then the demands for fast creation also don't matter. And you know, you've also opened the door for how the Bible could speak this happening in "days," and in our reality, it's millions of years. If time is outside of heaven, then there is no argument for a literalistic reading of time in Genesis 1 & 2.

You see? You have to assume that there was death. There was no sin before Adam sinned (by the way, that's my name!) haha....so anyways, here is a verse to back it up. "For by one man sin entered the world, and death by sin; for in Adam all die..." 1 Corinth. 15:21-22a

This verse is more abstract than you realize. For one, it's talking strictly about humans - there's nothing there about cows being immortal until Adam. In addition, Matthew Henry (who was a very famous theologian born in the 17th century) says about this passage:

"As through the sin of the first Adam, all men became mortal, because all had from him the same sinful nature, so, through the resurrection of Christ, shall all who are made to partake of the Spirit, and the spiritual nature, revive, and live for ever. "

In other words, even before Darwin, even before evolution, Christians read scripture as though Adam wasn't a real person. "The first Adam" simply means whomever was the first human; no matter who it was, that person had a sinful nature, and our sinful nature is inhereited from that descendant.

I never said that and I don't assume it. I'm just saying that there are some parts of scripture where I don't see why there is a need of an allegorical interpretation.

And you're right; a lot of it isn't allegorical. But much of the Old Testament in particular is.

And light is not constant. In fact light has been slowing down over the years. If you want some proof for this, let me know.

That's not true. But even if it were, then that only proves my point even more. Because that would mean that starts that are a million light years away are actually even further away, because light is slowing down!

I'm sorry, but evolution has never occurred. Now, if you are talking about MICROevolution, then I'll agree with you, but anything other than that I'd say no.

If microevolution exists, then macroevolution by definition also exists.

So....are you kinda admitting that there is no person in the bible that reads off the scripture in an allegorical way?

As other have said, there is no clear cut example for either side, so the question is pointless.

Okay. But I have a question. Since you think Genesis is perhaps a myth and there are some things of the bible that are wrong, and there is a great many parts of the bible where you allegorize, then what about the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John? What if all those books are myths?

We know which parts are allegory and which parts are not based on the structure of the original texts. Hebrew allegory had specific structure and rhythm, which Genesis has. The Gospels have a more straightforward structure, so the events are true.

 

[Alternate Carpark]

First, sincere apologies to pthalomarie for assuming you were the author of the ridiculously misinterpreted "flat earth" article. and my subsequent disrespectful attitude toward you.

Paladin, your last post was really well written, thanks for showing me what you guys believe in. Am in the process of writing a lengthy and final response....~~plays elevator music~~

 

[tryptophan]

If dinosaurs had lived during the Middle Ages, I would think that there would be better evidence of their existence than tales of knights fighting them. Wouldn't scribes or clergymen write something about giant creatures that walked around and attacked people? And why are they now gone? I think that the dragons they were referring to were not dinosaurs.

By the way, I had thought that the general consensus of creationists with regard to dinosaurs was that they had not been on the ark and had drowned in the great flood. Wouldn't the dinosaurs be gone then by the Middle Ages?

 

[Alternate Carpark]

Final Response: Slightly modified because as I was writing it I had two insights about the whole thing, so I may break it into two posts.

But first, back to the "flat earth" article. I know , what a waste of time for both of us,
so I'll give it one more try to get a logical and analyical response from you instead of the "sorry ,but it does", responses thus far.

I believe it is now three times I asked for a rebuttal of my analysis of that article, but upon reading your last post I now see it would be in your best interest not to try and refute my findings.

Anyway, because you have refused to refute my findings and now that I fully understand that you believe mankind's wisdom and knowledge above God's, in certain areas,
and how you subtly "interpret" the bible to match the findings of mankind's wisdom and knowledge,

I take back any request that I ask you to attempt to refute my analysis of the grossly misinterpreted flat earth article.
So the flat earth article thing is closed forever. YAY !

I now see why you keep referring to literal interpretation as some kind of illness or evil.
Because a ( supposedly ) literal interpretation of the bible contradicts what you believe in, evolution.

I am not in the slightest bit impressed or intimidated by how much research you have done, how many books you have read on the history of the "church"
and all the other things you can't help to constantly bring to our attention, to show us how knowledgeable you are in these matters.

Because Paladin, there is only ONE person we need to consult to know the complete truth about everything pertaining to life, and that is God Himself.

I mean if I had a choice to inquire about any issue with a bible college graduate or any other learned person, and God, well you guessed it, I'd choose God everytime.
Now having said that...

So whenever I do read something, which I do by the way. I am not one of those types that ignores information from different sources. But if that information contradicts what God says to me, personally, through His Holy Spirit and His word, then I don't accept the information, even if the rest of the world accepts it.
God is the only authority and foundation of my life...anyway....


Now here's the scenario that I see as I read your manifesto, from my view...bare with me it's a bit long and complicated, plus it's quick and rough...sorry about that.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
God makes everything in 6 days. He makes man out of the dust and breathes life into him. He makes man for fellowship. Man makes a mistake and breaks that fellowship.

A few thousand years later, and as many people begin to grow up with little or no obvious knowledge of God,
( I say obvious because god has declared that ALL people have knowledge of God built into them),
people start to say that we evolved from monkeys because humans are always looking for answers to the mysteries of life.

This of course contradicts what God has said in His word.( Plus, if God created us through evolution then He would have written it down. )

Still, many people decide to work out ways to prove this theory. I suspect much for the same reasons why people wanted to build the Tower at Babel.
They then discover "overwhelming" evidence and continue to do so.
Well it seems overwhelming, especially if they use a machine to prove their point. And we all know that mankind's intelligence displayed through machines is infallible.

Now comes the dilemma for Christian, in the face of the "overwhelming" evidence of evolution.
If Christian believes in evolution then that means the bible is wrong and that means there is no God.
But Christian believes in God , but is troubled/confused by the "overwhelming" evidence of evolution, especially the very impressive macroevolution.

So Christian has to choose, God's version of life or mankind's version.
But wait, there's another way to go...compromise.

Christian figures out a way to be able to believe in God and evolution at the same time.
How does Christian do this because if they contradict each other, then logically one has to be wrong.
How can Christian reach compromise within contradiction ? Simple.
Take away the contradiction by interpreting the facts differently.

Christian cannot interpret the facts of evolution differently because science is infallible just as evolution is infallible. The evidence for evolution is "overwhelmingly" infallible.
Plus don't forget the data from the machines.

So the only course of action is to interpret the word of God differently.
That's easy to do because it's just words in a book, and there are no infallible "machine made" facts to refute regarding the bible.

But now another dilemma arises for Christian. How can Christian interpret the word of God differently without making it look like the bible has errors.
Because Christian knows the whole bible to be the inspired word of God, and God is perfect and His word is complete and perfect with no errors in it.

So how does Christian fix this problem.
Oh it's so irresistibly simplistic ! Every time Christian reads something in the bible that contradicts ( otherwise known as a biblical error ) Christian's faith in science and mankind's wisdom,
all Christian has to do is give "error/contradiction" a different name.

So instead of finding error or contradiction in the bible, when it is compared against the wisdom of the world, Christian now just calls it "I just interpreted it wrong."
Thus Christian now doesn't have a bible that has errors in it, he just has error in the process of interpretation.
This now shifts the error away from the bible and God and onto the process of interpretation.

So starts the steady slide into the quagmire of delusion, which is unnoticable because the desired outcome has been achieved,
a belief in both God's version of life and mankind's version, with no contradiction anywhere to be seen. It's an idealistic and perfect world !

Christian is happy now because Christian has no worrying feelings and thoughts about all those conflicting facts.
And if someone comes along to show Christian the contradiction, Christian just says," You are interpreting it wrong, there is no contradiction."
Can anyone defeat this amazing new concept ? No ! It's perfect.
Anytime someone shows Christian to be wrong, Christian just points to that wonderful concept of "You are interpreting it wrong "

Although the reality is that there is a contradiction, but Christian can't see it anymore because Christian has spent a long time developing this deceptive thought pattern of---

---Wrong interpretation is the reason why there seems to be errors in the bible.
---And the only reason there seems to be error in the bible is because it contradict's what mankind says is correct.
---But there is no error in mankind's wisdom or god's wisdom, there is only error in how we interpret the bible, when the bible is wrong about something.
---Because we all know there is never anything wrong with mankind's facts, only God's, which is written in the bible.

And around and around it goes.
Okay now I'm working on the second part ~~plays elevator music again ~~

 

[Alternate Carpark]

Final Response...part 2

zoink posted a whole slab of scriptures showing "literally" all sorts of things about the earth and stuff.
To be quite honest and I am not wishing to come across as bragging, but a quarter to a third of them are invalid just by looking at them.
Upon a quick flick through my concordance, another 50% or more can be considered invalid when looking at them in their original context,
as "Earth" can also mean "land" in many of those references, which changes the whole gist of the scripture doesn't it.
Plus , as I am a quick learner, it is pointless for me to post any refutations of these scriptures as the old
" No they're not" argument will be used , plus no one seems to want or can't refute any of my analysis' anyway.

But as I was pondering the thought processes of the people here in this thread I came across these um ..things---

Let's look at two scriptures from the Word of God.
Isaiah 40:22 (KJV)
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain,
and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Rev. 7:1 (KJV)
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Oh look ! One scripture refers to the earth being a "circle" and the other says it isn't. ERROR ! CONTRADICTION ! WARNING!
I hope some of you aren't saying where is the contradiction ? Where does it say the earth is not a circle ?
But just in case there are some who can't see it...
In Rev7:1 the angels are holding the four CORNERS of the earth, logic states that CIRCLES don't have corners.

So, here we have a blatant contradiction in the so called perfect word of God.
Now I don't know about you, but I see these kind of things all the time, these contradictions or errors if you like to call them that.
So this is what I do when I come across a "contradiction" in God's word.
Q: Do I really see a contradiction ?
A: Yes.
Q: Does this contradiction show that the bible has an error ?
A: Yes.
Q: Is God perfect ?
A: Yes.
Q: Is the complete bible wholely inspired by god ?
A: yes.
Q: Would God put an error in His word ?
A: No.
Q: Why can I see an error then ?
A: I am fallible and the error is in how I understand what is written.
Q: How do I get to the place where I see clearly what God is saying so I don't misread it as error ?
A: Ask God, He is perfect and knows everything.

I asked Him and he pointed me to
2 Tim. 3:16 (MsgB)
Every part of Scripture is God-breathed and useful one way or another—showing us truth, exposing our rebellion, correcting our mistakes, training us to live God's way.
So the answer is in His word. It even says life is in His word.
So I need to find out how to read/see/interpret His word correctly without using my limited understanding, because it is fallible.
So who will teach me or show me the correct way to interpret His word ?
The answer is in His word of course, so I ask God to show me where it says what is the correct way to interpret the bible, and He leads me to these...
Ephes. 1:17 (KJV)
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

John 1:1-3 (KJV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [2] The same was in the beginning with God. [3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

1 Cor. 2:10-16 (KJV)
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. [11] For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. [12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. [13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. [14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. [15] But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. [16] For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

I'm sure you will agree with me , from the above scriptures, that the bible and how to truthfully and correctly interpret it comes solely from us inquiring of God, being shown what His word is really saying. etc etc.

So you can cast off your literal and allegorical or whatever ways of interpreting because, God's word says we interpret with and by and through the Spirit of God.
Not through our own abilities, amazing that they are.
You see, what people do when they come up to an "error" in the bible is instantly think there really is an error,
instead of the more biblically obvious one that we are the ones who are looking at it the wrong way.
The word of God is not just words, they are spirit and they cannot be interpreted by minds of flesh. God has written His word in such a way that people can understand it to a certain depth, enough for the reader to realise certain things.
But the hidden truths and deeper things of God can only be understood through the Spirit.
So you see, there are no errors. It only looks that way to our natural minds, but we are either too proud, stupid, lazy, ignorant, to admit that we have the error and not God.

Now, about the "literal" thing that some of you don't like as a way of interpreting the bible.
You do realise it is you who is interpreting the bible "literally" that makes you see all the errors.
Pretty ironic huh ! The thing you judge people of doing you do even more.

I mean look at my example up there, two scriptures that contradict each other.
How do we see that they contradict each other ? By interpreting them literally with our limited and unspiritual minds.

So what do you do instead of admitting you misinterpreted the bible, you go and state that God's word is only correct in dealing with spiritual matters.
Anything in the bible pertaining to what science reveals is error.
Which amounts to you saying God speaks truth and lies, which of course is very untrue.
And the only reason you come to this conclusion is because you believe science more than what God says.
Well science is made up of fallible people postulating how life came about.
But I know, the evidence is OVERWHELMING. To you maybe, But I find the only time I am overwhelmed is when I'm with God.
Have a think about this though, let's say there never was a theory of evolution, being a Christian, how would you spend your time now. How would your relationship to God be and the relationship to your rellies in Christ be, and last but not least, you relationship to the unsaved ?

Now , with all that said and done. I don't care at all if you want to believe in evolution or anything else you want to believe about God and His word.
Sadly and foolishly I have wasted enough of your time and mine and everyone elses that has looked at this thread.
I'm off to the edification section. Sorry to have interrupted you, carry on as if I was never here.

 

[Alternate Carpark]

I would just like to correct an error in my last post.
God, oh He is so wonderful isn't He, by His Spirit and through a few wonderful rellies over the last 24 hours has shown me my posts have not been a foolish waste of time.
So I take that back and give, as usual, all glory to God my precious and loving heavenly Father.

Okay Now I am done.

 

[Marshall Janzen]

SO GIVE ME THE SCRIPTURE! Where is a person in scripture reading off scripture and interpreting it in an allegorical way? Book, chapter, and verse. Where? In fact, all you'll find is Daniel, Jesus, etc. reading the scripture then taking it very literally.

"Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.

"These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother." (Galatians 4:21-26)

 

[GenemZ]

There have been drawings of them. Have you seen the Inca Stones? They have drawings of dragons/dinosaurs on them. There was also a mummy found that the clothes she had on had designs of a dinosaur-like creature (long neck, long tail). There is a lot more I could tell you, but like I said, get Dr. Kent Hovind's Creation Seminar DVD #3. And by the way Late_Cretaceous, some guy did find and stuff a dinosaur looking creature. It is on display now in the Creation Evidences museum in Glen Rose, TX. The guy who found it was Pete Peterson from L&D Bait Shop 18508 Detroit Ave., Lakewood, OH 44107 216-226-3474. He sold it to Carl Baugh 254-897-3200. You can call them all up if you don't believe me.

Funny... the Bible mentions the lion. The elphant. The cobra. Etc...

One would think, that if T-Rex was on this earth at the time of man, that we would see the words for T-Rex ten times more often than that of the lion. After all, it would have struck terror in the hearts of all men.

Dragons represent Satan. Serpents represent Satan. In prehistoric creation the functions of these animals represented to the angels the way Satan's mind works. His thinking wants to tear you apart and devoir you... Or, to strangle you (with evil thoughts) so you can't move... then swallow you whole. Creatures can represent mental attitudes in the Bible. Certain creatures are mentioned only to show what kind of mental attitude someone chooses to have.

"He replied, "Go tell that fox, 'I will drive out demons and heal people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.' " Luke 13:32 niv

"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

The prophetic Spirit brought Moses to the very creation of our present world. Was Moses there at the time? No. Yet, he writes as if he were an eye witness!

Dragons , like Satan, existed in prehistoric times.

Likewise, the prophetic Spirit will give us glimpses into prehistoric times. That is why we have confusion when we do not realize that the prophetic Spirit can transport us into the past, and future, as if it were the present. That is why we are told we need to "rightly divide" the Word of God. It takes knowledge and understanding to do so. Not impulse and taking too many things literally. Then, we end up with confusion and false doctrines.

Just as there will be a New Heavens and New Earth in the future... this present creation followed a prior creation. One where Satan and his angels had dominion over the earth.

This creation was originally assigned to Adam, but when Adam fell the authority was defaulted back to Satan. That is why Satan is now the ruler of this world. But, in the beginning of this creation, Adam was to have dominion over the world.

Always remember this, the prophetic Spirit can speak of a past event, or a future event, as if it were taking place in our day. For God sees the past as clearly as he sees the present. Ditto, for the future, as well.

And... if great dragons really existed during this creation? They would be mentioned at least ten times more often than the lion in the Bible. But, we only see a few obscured references. Look up in your concordance how many times the lion and snakes are mentioned. Then, look up "dragon." Seems odd to see dragon mentioned so few times if they really co-existed with men of this present creation. If they did, it makes no sense. For we still see lions and snakes. Which could survive better? Makes no sense to think Adam walked with dinosuars without seeing them mentioned in many places throughout the Bible.


Grace and peace, GeneZ