Dinosaurs and Theology

[MoNiCa4316]

What do you guys think about dinosaurs? Here is my dilemma. According to Christianity, death came into the world with the original fall...so theologically, it makes no sense that dinosaurs would die before Adam and Eve. Or did animals die, just not humans?
Maybe the dinosaurs existed at the same time as Adam and Eve, and died in the Flood...that's what some YECers think.
And if you don't believe that, how do you explain the theology of it?

 

[Mallon]

A few things to consider:
-Genesis 1:29-30 says we must eat. Why eat if we were created immortal?
-Genesis 3:22-23 says that the Tree of Life was created so that man could live forever. What purpose would it have served if man was created immortal?
-More often than not, the death spoken of in the Bible is spiritual death, rather than physical death (e.g., Rom 5:18; Rom 6:13).

Here are some select articles written by pensive evolutionary creationists re: death and the Fall:

www.asa3.org/asa/PSCF/2006/PSCF6-06Phillips.pdf
www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2004/PSCF6-04Snoke.pdf

P.S. What do I think of dinosaurs? I think they're awesome!

 

[SpiritMeadow]

What do you guys think about dinosaurs? Here is my dilemma. According to Christianity, death came into the world with the original fall...so theologically, it makes no sense that dinosaurs would die before Adam and Eve. Or did animals die, just not humans?
Maybe the dinosaurs existed at the same time as Adam and Eve, and died in the Flood...that's what some YECers think.
And if you don't believe that, how do you explain the theology of it?

The simple answer is that the bible was not written by people who had any scientific ability to explain either where the earth came from or themselves. The created stories to explain these events occurred at the direction of God. The fact that they had no idea how God did it and therefore were incorrect in their presentation, is of no matter.

Dinosaurs existed millions of years before the first humans walked the earth. This is well documented in the fossil record. YEC folks say a lot of things, they can prove exactly NONE of them.

God and evolution are perfectly compatible as long as you understand the usage of metaphor, analogy, and allegory in the bible.

 

[Assyrian]

Dinosaurs and Theology

Dinosaurs were not renowned for their theology, brains too small really.

What do you guys think about dinosaurs? Here is my dilemma. According to Christianity, death came into the world with the original fall...so theologically, it makes no sense that dinosaurs would die before Adam and Eve. Or did animals die, just not humans?
Maybe the dinosaurs existed at the same time as Adam and Eve, and died in the Flood...that's what some YECers think.
And if you don't believe that, how do you explain the theology of it?

But seriously.

Dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago, long before man arrived on the scene. I know that YECs say that all death, spiritual and physical, human and animal is the result of the fall. The bible talks about human death coming from the fall, and even there it is open to interpretation whether this is talking about physical or spiritual death. I would say the picture of the tree of life in the garden tells us man was created not immortal, but able to receive immortality as a gift from God, if he ate the fruit he would live forever. That was, until we lost our relationship with God and were cut off from eternal life. But Genesis says nothing at all about animals living forever.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

A few things to consider:
-Genesis 1:29-30 says we must eat. Why eat if we were created immortal?

Why not? Did not Christ eat when He appeared to His disciples?

Or are you asking something like..."doesn't eating animals involve killing them, so there was death then too"? To that, I would say that the Bible implies that we were all to eat plants...

Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food." And it was so.

-Genesis 3:22-23 says that the Tree of Life was created so that man could live forever. What purpose would it have served if man was created immortal?

In Revelation, it mentions tree(s) of life..doesn't it? And we'll be immortal then. I personally think that Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Life...it only says they were forbidden to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. I don't know..

-More often than not, the death spoken of in the Bible is spiritual death, rather than physical death (e.g., Rom 5:18; Rom 6:13).

Yes, but God does tell Adam that one of his punishments is that he will descend back to dust, from which he was made....implying that he was immortal before...personally I think that physical death is a sort of a 'symptom' of spiritual death...currently we are made spiritually alive by Christ, but our bodies will become immortal in the resurrection of the dead..."it is sown a natural body, and raised a spiritual body".

Here are some select articles written by pensive evolutionary creationists re: death and the Fall:

www.asa3.org/asa/PSCF/2006/PSCF6-06Phillips.pdf
www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2004/PSCF6-04Snoke.pdf

P.S. What do I think of dinosaurs? I think they're awesome!

Oki cool, I'll read them

I agree that dinosaurs are pretty awesome.

 

[gluadys]

What do you guys think about dinosaurs? Here is my dilemma. According to Christianity, death came into the world with the original fall...so theologically, it makes no sense that dinosaurs would die before Adam and Eve. Or did animals die, just not humans?
Maybe the dinosaurs existed at the same time as Adam and Eve, and died in the Flood...that's what some YECers think.
And if you don't believe that, how do you explain the theology of it?

Why the focus on dinosaurs? What about trilobites? They existed even before dinosaurs and became extinct before dinosaurs did. What about Anomalacaris?

http://www.trilobites.info/gallery2.html

And do you have any idea how many different species of dinosaurs there were?

There was lots of extinction of many kinds of plant and animal life before humanity existed. That is simply a fact. Remember, theology does not get to say what reality is. God determines reality; theology is a believers' response to that reality. Denying the reality is not doing theology. It is calling God a liar.

What is an appropriate theological response to the fact of death before human existence? There are several. One is that death was not a curse until it was entangled with sin. Another is that the death associated with the fall is spiritual and not relevant to animal death. After all, Adam did not literally die physically in the day he ate the fruit. He lived, according to the text, another 930 years. But he did, immediately, die spiritually, for now he was cut off from God.

Here is still a third take on the theological possibilities.

http://www.asa3.org/asa/PSCF/2006/PSCF6-06Phillips.pdf

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Dinosaurs were not renowned for their theology, brains too small really.

haha...indeed, they were lacking in that area.

But seriously.

Dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago, long before man arrived on the scene. I know that YECs say that all death, spiritual and physical, human and animal is the result of the fall. The bible talks about human death coming from the fall, and even there it is open to interpretation whether this is talking about physical or spiritual death. I would say the picture of the tree of life in the garden tells us man was created not immortal, but able to receive immortality as a gift from God, if he ate the fruit he would live forever. That was, until we lost our relationship with God and were cut off from eternal life. But Genesis says nothing at all about animals living forever.

That is a possibility....my only objection to that would be that God intends to give us eternal life, which I've always taken to mean that He did not design the world with death in it...and that death came as a result of sin. I don't know. All I know for sure is that Christ died and rose again, and will come back again and give us eternal life. Maybe that is different than what the 'original plan' was with Adam.

 

[gluadys]

All I know for sure is that Christ died and rose again, and will come back again and give us eternal life. Maybe that is different than what the 'original plan' was with Adam.

Yet according to Revelation, Christ is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world". Maybe it was very much the original plan.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

The simple answer is that the bible was not written by people who had any scientific ability to explain either where the earth came from or themselves. The created stories to explain these events occurred at the direction of God. The fact that they had no idea how God did it and therefore were incorrect in their presentation, is of no matter.

Dinosaurs existed millions of years before the first humans walked the earth. This is well documented in the fossil record. YEC folks say a lot of things, they can prove exactly NONE of them.

God and evolution are perfectly compatible as long as you understand the usage of metaphor, analogy, and allegory in the bible.

hmm..if they just made up the Biblical stories, what's stopping us from saying that everything in the Bible is made up, including the New Testament?

But even if you are right, that still leaves the theological problem...even if the Bible is not historically or scientifically correct, it must still be theologically correct...and if that is the case, how can dinosaurs die before there was death? I guess it also depends on how you define death ah this is so confusing!!

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Yet according to Revelation, Christ is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world". Maybe it was very much the original plan.

Maybe so! After all, God is outside of time. wow..that is amazing that He still made us, knowing that He would die for us one day!!!

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Why the focus on dinosaurs? What about trilobites? They existed even before dinosaurs and became extinct before dinosaurs did. What about Anomalacaris?

http://www.trilobites.info/gallery2.html

And do you have any idea how many different species of dinosaurs there were?

There was lots of extinction of many kinds of plant and animal life before humanity existed. That is simply a fact. Remember, theology does not get to say what reality is. God determines reality; theology is a believers' response to that reality. Denying the reality is not doing theology. It is calling God a liar.

What is an appropriate theological response to the fact of death before human existence? There are several. One is that death was not a curse until it was entangled with sin. Another is that the death associated with the fall is spiritual and not relevant to animal death. After all, Adam did not literally die physically in the day he ate the fruit. He lived, according to the text, another 930 years. But he did, immediately, die spiritually, for now he was cut off from God.

Here is still a third take on the theological possibilities.

http://www.asa3.org/asa/PSCF/2006/PSCF6-06Phillips.pdf

maybe...but do you believe that we shall one day have eternal life, as promised in the Bible? That would mean that the 'new earth and new heaven' would not be a return to the 'way it was' before the fall, but would be a completely new reality....that is a possibility too.

 

[gluadys]

maybe...but do you believe that we shall one day have eternal life, as promised in the Bible? That would mean that the 'new earth and new heaven' would not be a return to the 'way it was' before the fall, but would be a completely new reality....that is a possibility too.

I think scripture is clear that the new creation will not be made out of nothing like the original creation, but will have a continuity with this creation. Why would Paul, in Romans, speak of the current creation eagerly anticipating the revealing of the sons of God if it just meant that all of this creation would pass into oblivion?

Peter speaks of the new creation to come as similar to the new earth after the flood. Much is destroyed---all wickedness is destroyed--but a remnant is saved. And the new purified earth continues on.

So yes, I believe in eternity and a new heaven and earth, but I also believe that in that new heaven and earth there is a place for all of the good and beautiful and lovely things of this creation.

Since you like C.S. Lewis, you have probably read the Narnia Tales. (If not, by all means go get them and enjoy!) I think of the new creation much as he describes it at the end of The Last Battle.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

when I meant 'completely new reality', I did not mean that it would be made from nothing, but just different than the Garden of Eden...I believe - it sounds like you do too - that the 'new creation' would be a renewal of this one.

I love the Narnia books! I've always liked the end of the 'Last Battle' too...it sure sounds like it contains an element of truth.

 

[Assyrian]

yup.

 

[Mallon]

Why not? Did not Christ eat when He appeared to His disciples?

Or are you asking something like..."doesn't eating animals involve killing them, so there was death then too"? To that, I would say that the Bible implies that we were all to eat plants...

Nope. You understood me right the first time. Why would an immortal human need to eat? I'm not so sure your analogy of Christ works, because (apart from the fact that Jesus did die... temporarily) even he felt hunger, which is a physiological response to keep the body alive and energized.

In Revelation, it mentions tree(s) of life..doesn't it? And we'll be immortal then. I personally think that Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Life...it only says they were forbidden to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. I don't know..

Of course they ate from the Tree of Life! They had to in order to stay alive! Genesis tells us this much. What purpose would it have served otherwise?

Yes, but God does tell Adam that one of his punishments is that he will descend back to dust, from which he was made....implying that he was immortal before...

... because he was eating from the Tree of Life.
God also told Adam that he would surely die on the day that he ate of the Tree of Knowledge. Yet he didn't die for another ~940 years! Likely more evidence that the death God was speaking of was not simply physical death, but spiritual separation from God.

 

[gluadys]

hmm..if
ah this is so confusing!!

That's good. That's enough reason to allow for a variety of interpretations and not insist on a single one as the right one.

 

[busterdog]

maybe...but do you believe that we shall one day have eternal life, as promised in the Bible? That would mean that the 'new earth and new heaven' would not be a return to the 'way it was' before the fall, but would be a completely new reality....that is a possibility too.

We always end up splitting hairs the wrong way on this one.

You are right. What exactly is the point of Genesis if not to elucidate what we were before the fall and how things will be after the final redemption.

People split hairs about whether things will be the exactly the same, as if that disproves the idea that death entering at the fall and death being cast into the Lake Fire aren't essential mirror images of our biggest predicament in this life.

IN both the before and the hereafter, God is the life and sustainer of his people in his way. The BIble implies that God did not kill his genetically imperfect sons in Eden (evolution), nor will He kill any who inherit his eternal life. There is a way of living pre-fall and post-wedding feast where God is absolutely back in first place in human life.

Yes you can argue against this position. There are logical bases to do so. But, it makes no sense to say this isn't a worthy argument that people need to consider, even if a person disagrees with it. It is in the plain text of the Bible. Paul is adamant about how death enters and how death is defeated. Every Christian must consider this key doctrinal point.

 

[shernren]

You are right. What exactly is the point of Genesis if not to elucidate what we were before the fall and how things will be after the final redemption.

So is the tree of knowledge of good and evil going to be there after the fall as well?

If God thought His perfect creation could do with a tree of knowledge of good and evil right at the start, what makes you think He won't put one in at the end of things?

Your own logic be a rather dangerous thing.

 

[JesusChrist24]

666

 

[SpiritMeadow]

hmm..if they just made up the Biblical stories, what's stopping us from saying that everything in the Bible is made up, including the New Testament?

But even if you are right, that still leaves the theological problem...even if the Bible is not historically or scientifically correct, it must still be theologically correct...and if that is the case, how can dinosaurs die before there was death? I guess it also depends on how you define death ah this is so confusing!!

You have to remember the bible is composed of dozens of writers, hundreds of redactors, copyists. God inspired them to write to the best of their ability the truth. The bible is quite factual at many points, verifed by documents and archeology.

I'm not sure where you get the idea there was no death before "Adam" sinned. Evolution shows that not all animals before man were herbifores, some were carnivores. Sin entered the world, I would argue the moment the first human harmed or allowed harm to come to another human, for selfish reasons.

You must understand the bible is composed of many many types of literary genre. Some of them are not meant to be taken literally. They point to theological truths, but the means are not always meant to be taken as having been real.