Dinosaurs and People

[simplyg123]

Creation Science Evangelism - Creation, Evolution, Dinosaurs, and the Bible.

Kent Hovinds site, very interesting, yes those of you that do not aprove of kent, i know your feeling, but i simply just dont agree with you

 

[mumluvsherboys]

Amen to that...

Here's a hug for you! God bless!

 

[BlueJ]

This topic is interesting. Did Dinosaurs and human coexist, in my opinion no. However, many of you guys have made some interesting points. Strange creatures are mentioned in the old Testament, like creatures in the sea. It's strange that those creatures weren't mentioned in the new Testament.

God is not a God of confusion.

 

[artybloke]

I believe your response was "your" interpretation and not the original authors'.

You can believe all you want, it doesn't make it true. You, in common with both fundamentalists and traditional liberals, are reading the Bible as if it is the same kind of literature as anything that was written in the 19th-20th century. You are reading in a Modernist way - the fact is that no ancient literature from anywhere was written in this way, where truth = fact. This is a Modernist notion not a Biblical notion.

"There is no poetry" here just shows how little you know of poetry, incidentally. And probably the reason that no fundamentalist has ever produced great art.

I continue to believe God's word is the Truth as it is imprinted on my heart and is revealed to me everyday.

As do I. But truth does not equal fact; and though there is great, and beautiful, truth in Genesis, it is not a factual account.

Otherwise, the other great witness to God's work in the world, the Creation itself, is a lie in itself. The Creation itself bears all the hallmarks of ancient age, of evolutionary change, and of all those things your Modernist/Materialist interpretation of Genesis tells you isn't true. But it's your Modernist/Materialist interpretation that is wrong; not the scripture. The Book of Genesis contains great and universal poetic/symbolic/spiritual truths; and clinging to a materialist reading only obscures them.

It's only your Modernist/Materialist inability to move from the untrue assertion that Truth=fact that stops you from seeing that. Ask God to remove the scales from your eyes. He who has eyes to see let him see!

 

[Mick116]

I believe your response was "your" interpretation and not the original authors'. Moses was very clear that God made everything in six literal days, Gen. 1, Ex.20:11, etc...There is no poetry here...bara (created)means to bring into existence from nothing. So, I guess you're faced w/ the question, is Moses a liar? or did God actually do what he said? There is absolutely no evidence for evolution taught in the bible so why would we try to explain bible w/ man's fallible theories? Do we get to pick and choose what we want to believe in the bible? Man's theories have been proven wrong throughout the years (flat earth, spontaneous generation, etc...)
By the way, if a fact was proven wrong...then obviously it wasn't a fact. Or am I totally wrong about that?

The main problem with relying on the "Word of God" rather than man's "fallible theories" is this paradox: that the infallible word of God was written by fallible human beings.

Indeed, what is the notion of an "infallible Scripture" other than a "fallible theory" of man?

 

[artybloke]

So, I guess you're faced w/ the question, is Moses a liar?

I missed this bit. Apart from the questionable notion that Moses wrote any of the Penteteuch, ask yourself:

When Dickens wrote Great Expectations, was he lying? Or was he just using fiction as a way of conveying truth in an imaginative and engaging way to a readership used to the notion of fiction?

Was Jesus lying when he invented an imaginary shepherd or a woman who lost a coin? Or was his audience aware that he was conveying truth through imagery?

Was the Psalmist lying when he said that the earth had four corners; or was he and his audience aware of the use of metaphor and symbol in poetry and song?

By the way, if a fact was proven wrong...then obviously it wasn't a fact. Or am I totally wrong about that?

It was a fact at the time. It is no longer a fact.

 

[mumluvsherboys]

You can believe all you want, it doesn't make it true. You, in common with both fundamentalists and traditional liberals, are reading the Bible as if it is the same kind of literature as anything that was written in the 19th-20th century. You are reading in a Modernist way - the fact is that no ancient literature from anywhere was written in this way, where truth = fact. This is a Modernist notion not a Biblical notion.

"There is no poetry" here just shows how little you know of poetry, incidentally. And probably the reason that no fundamentalist has ever produced great art.

As do I. But truth does not equal fact; and though there is great, and beautiful, truth in Genesis, it is not a factual account.

Otherwise, the other great witness to God's work in the world, the Creation itself, is a lie in itself. The Creation itself bears all the hallmarks of ancient age, of evolutionary change, and of all those things your Modernist/Materialist interpretation of Genesis tells you isn't true. But it's your Modernist/Materialist interpretation that is wrong; not the scripture. The Book of Genesis contains great and universal poetic/symbolic/spiritual truths; and clinging to a materialist reading only obscures them.

It's only your Modernist/Materialist inability to move from the untrue assertion that Truth=fact that stops you from seeing that. Ask God to remove the scales from your eyes. He who has eyes to see let him see!

I would think "proof" would completely cancel out faith. I know it's my belief, doesn't make me wrong because you say so. Doesn't make you wrong because I say so. I am saying and I'm sure others agree it is not wise to say things in the Bible are a lie. That is very dangerous. God bless.

 

[jds1977]

wow...I'm surprised at the "Christians" who don't believe the bible.

The main problem with relying on the "Word of God" rather than man's "fallible theories" is this paradox: that the infallible word of God was written by fallible human beings.

Indeed, what is the notion of an "infallible Scripture" other than a "fallible theory" of man?

ok...so, when I sit down and write a letter, am I writing the letter or is my pen actually writing the letter? That's the same w/ God...He wrote it through man. He was moving the pen (prophets, priests, kings,apostles, etc..)

Here's a question...do you believe Romans 5:12-14? Man caused sin and death is a result of sin. If you say that animals lived and died before man was ever around, then Paul was a liar and the gospel is of no use. death before sin is heresy.

Was Jesus lying when he invented an imaginary shepherd or a woman who lost a coin? Or was his audience aware that he was conveying truth through imagery?

No...He made it clear that He was speaking in parables: Mat. 13:34 and numerous other verse refferences.

Apart from the questionable notion that Moses wrote any of the Penteteuch

Jesus Himself and all major Hebrew scholars give credit to Moses for the Pentetuch.

And probably the reason that no fundamentalist has ever produced great art.

Your proof is where? I am a fundamentalist and I get paid to produce art...I'm an artist by career not hobby, this statement is your opinion not based on any fact.

the fact is that no ancient literature from anywhere was written in this way, where truth = fact. This is a Modernist notion not a Biblical notion.

Again, this is "your" opinion not based on proof. Did Adam sin or is that just a poem? Did God judge Soddom or is that just a poem? Did Abraham and Sarah bear Isaac or is that just a poem? Looking at Genesis as a poem or just a fable is very weakening to Christianity. It is the very foundation to Christianity.

It's strange that those creatures weren't mentioned in the new Testament.

Possibly, it's because these weird creatures were becoming more rare and extinct by the time of the New Testament writers. Jesus does mention the "whale"(Gr. ketos) in Mat. 12:40 which means a huge fish and the Old Test. whale is tanniym which means sea monster. Or, if God wanted, it could've been a little goldfish lol. Can science ever be able to fully explain the supernatural? I don't think so. Can science ever explain a bodily resurrection of Jesus? I doubt it. However, there were those in the bible who didn't believe in the supernatural, they were called Sadducees. I hope we're not modern-day sadducees.

 

[simplyg123]

It's strange that those creatures weren't mentioned in the new Testament.

Some Examples




Neh 2:13 And I went out by night by the valley gate, even toward the jackal's well, and to the dung gate, and viewed the walls of Jerusalem, which were broken down, and the gates thereof were consumed with fire.

Jackal's = H8577
תּנּים תּנּין
tannîyn tannîym
tan-neen', tan-neem'
(The second form used in Eze_29:3); intensive from the same as H8565; a marine or land monster, that is, sea serpent or jackal: - dragon, sea-monster, serpent, whale.


Psa 91:13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: The young lion and the serpent shalt thou trample under foot.

Isa 27:1 In that day Jehovah with his hard and great and strong sword will punish leviathan the swift serpent, and leviathan the crooked serpent; and he will slay the monster(not fish) that is in the sea.

 

[artybloke]

I would think "proof" would completely cancel out faith.

"Proof" is for alcohol and maths. Science deals with evidence, and theories that explain that evidence. Not even the most solidly evidenced theory (like evolution) is ever "proven."

Theories, however, can be disproven. The 6000 year old earth was disproven by 1830 and the Genesis creation account was disproven by the end of the 19th. By Christian scientists, by the way. Such as Darwin.

I know it's my belief, doesn't make me wrong because you say so.

Quite agree. But then it's not me that says that your MODERNIST/MATERIALIST interpretation of the Bible is wrong; it's the evidence that God himself left in the world for us to find that makes you wrong. You make choose to avoid the real world for as long as you like, it doesn't stop you living in fantasy and wish-fullfillment land.

Jesus Himself and all major Hebrew scholars give credit to Moses for the Pentetuch.

All major Hebrew scholars do no such thing.

Again, this is "your" opinion not based on proof.

My evidence is there for all to see. Stop believing liars and frauds and criminals like Hovind and open your eyes.

Your proof is where?

In the total absence of any great fundamentalist artists.

 

[jds1977]

Stop believing liars and frauds and criminals like Hovind and open your eyes

If you can't disprove the message, attack the messenger...nice one
I'm still waiting for an answer to the question of death before sin in Romans 5:12 or is Adam and sin just a poem too?

In the total absence of any great fundamentalist artists

So, in order for you to make a statement like that, you would have to know EVERYTHING about art and artists. Again, it's your opinion and not fact.

 

[jds1977]

Stop believing liars and frauds and criminals like Hovind and open your eyes.

If you can't disprove the message, attack the messenger...nice one
I'm still waiting for an answer to the question of death before sin in Romans 5:12. Or, is Adam and sin just a poem too?

In the total absence of any great fundamentalist artists.

For you to make a statement like that you have to have ALL knowledge of art and artists, which of course you don't. Again, a good example of "your opinion" and not facts.

 

[artybloke]

If you can't disprove the message, attack the messenger...nice one

Evidence? www.talkorigins.org is all you need. 'Course I don't expect you to understand it. If you think Hovind has any integrity, you obviously can't handle real facts.

I'm still waiting for an answer to the question of death before sin in Romans 5:12.

Oh come off it! You really think he was refering to physical rather than spiritual death? Or isn't St Paul allowed to use metaphorical language as well as the authors of Genesis?

And, by the way, you haven't even tried to deal with the main problem with creationism - which is that it is a modernist/materialist interpretation imposed on the Bible by people who have accepted the atheistic lie that truth always equals fact.

That's what's wrong with creationism - that it can't handle metaphor, analogy, symbol as a vehicle for truth but has to reduce everything to "fact." That, of course, and the lies it tells.

 

[mumluvsherboys]

"Proof" is for alcohol and maths. Science deals with evidence, and theories that explain that evidence. Not even the most solidly evidenced theory (like evolution) is ever "proven."

Theories, however, can be disproven. The 6000 year old earth was disproven by 1830 and the Genesis creation account was disproven by the end of the 19th. By Christian scientists, by the way. Such as Darwin.

Quite agree. But then it's not me that says that your MODERNIST/MATERIALIST interpretation of the Bible is wrong; it's the evidence that God himself left in the world for us to find that makes you wrong. You make choose to avoid the real world for as long as you like, it doesn't stop you living in fantasy and wish-fullfillment land.

All major Hebrew scholars do no such thing.

My evidence is there for all to see. Stop believing liars and frauds and criminals like Hovind and open your eyes.

In the total absence of any great fundamentalist artists.

I resent what you have sadi about creationists, it's amazing to me how people who turn away from the word of God try to get others to follow. It is usually by insults. I see clearly what is going on with you Artybloke, and it's not the Lord's work. If it was, perhaps you would approach this like Christ would. We do not believe you, because we believe God. We do not trust the world because the world lies, not God. Did you think perhaps satan put those things before your eyes to help discredit God. In the flood, God wiped out all things except he kept those of which He created (at least two of each). Perhaps there are things ceated by the devil that were wiped out in the flood. Perhaps these are the things you call "facts". I would think believing in something like evolution and such would take a large amount of faith as well. I trust the word of God, not the world. And I'm sorry to say, I don't trust a thing you are saying. Plus, you haven't been too respectful in your posts which doesn't help. God bless.

 

[jds1977]

atheistic lie that truth always equals fact.

speaking of atheism, lets see the real issue of evolutionary thinking as told by Richard G. Bozarth in "The Meaning of Evolution" from American Atheist (Feb.1978)
It becomes clear now that the whole justification of Jesus' life and death is predicated on the existence of Adam and the forbidden fruit he and Eve ate. Without the original sin, who needs to be redeemed? Without Adam's fall into a life of constant sin terminated by death, what purpose is there to Christianity? None...evolution destroys utterly and finally the very reason Jesus' earthly life was supposedly made necessary. Destroy Adam and Eve and the original sin, and in the rubble you will find the sorry remains of the son of god. It takes away the meaning of his death. If Jesus was not the redeemer who died for our sins, and this is what evolution means, then Christianity is nothing! --Richard Bozarth
And, speaking of a modernist interpretation...your evolutionary thinking is extremely modernistic...name one bible character or early church father who believed in anything but creation. evolutionism is man's way of trying to explain away the supernatural. Evolution's god is time...the God of the bible is the Supreme Creator who created all things by Him and for Him...not created "some" things and then they evolved and somehow defeated the laws of thermodynamics and spontaneous generation and became "scientists". Even the laws of thermodynamics proclaim the facts that everything is running down, the universe, our bodies, and even the old car in my driveway. Maybe if I give it enough time, it will evolve into a Rolls Royce. See the stupidity of evolution? even a child can see it, why can't we? maybe it's because we're willingly ignorant. People might think they know a lot about the Word of God, but they don't know the God of the Word. It's time we examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith.

 

[mumluvsherboys]

speaking of atheism, lets see the real issue of evolutionary thinking as told by Richard G. Bozarth in "The Meaning of Evolution" from American Atheist (Feb.1978)
It becomes clear now that the whole justification of Jesus' life and death is predicated on the existence of Adam and the forbidden fruit he and Eve ate. Without the original sin, who needs to be redeemed? Without Adam's fall into a life of constant sin terminated by death, what purpose is there to Christianity? None...evolution destroys utterly and finally the very reason Jesus' earthly life was supposedly made necessary. Destroy Adam and Eve and the original sin, and in the rubble you will find the sorry remains of the son of god. It takes away the meaning of his death. If Jesus was not the redeemer who died for our sins, and this is what evolution means, then Christianity is nothing! --Richard Bozarth
And, speaking of a modernist interpretation...your evolutionary thinking is extremely modernistic...name one bible character or early church father who believed in anything but creation. evolutionism is man's way of trying to explain away the supernatural. Evolution's god is time...the God of the bible is the Supreme Creator who created all things by Him and for Him...not created "some" things and then they evolved and somehow defeated the laws of thermodynamics and spontaneous generation and became "scientists". Even the laws of thermodynamics proclaim the facts that everything is running down, the universe, our bodies, and even the old car in my driveway. Maybe if I give it enough time, it will evolve into a Rolls Royce. See the stupidity of evolution? even a child can see it, why can't we? maybe it's because we're willingly ignorant. People might think they know a lot about the Word of God, but they don't know the God of the Word. It's time we examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith.

Thank you thank you thank you!!!! I could just cry! God bless you!

 

[RegularGuy]

speaking of atheism, lets see the real issue of evolutionary thinking as told by Richard G. Bozarth in "The Meaning of Evolution" from American Atheist (Feb.1978)
It becomes clear now that the whole justification of Jesus' life and death is predicated on the existence of Adam and the forbidden fruit he and Eve ate. Without the original sin, who needs to be redeemed? Without Adam's fall into a life of constant sin terminated by death, what purpose is there to Christianity? None...evolution destroys utterly and finally the very reason Jesus' earthly life was supposedly made necessary. Destroy Adam and Eve and the original sin, and in the rubble you will find the sorry remains of the son of god. It takes away the meaning of his death. If Jesus was not the redeemer who died for our sins, and this is what evolution means, then Christianity is nothing! --Richard Bozarth

Richard Bozrath and Christian Fundamentalists seem to have this in common: they both believe that the Christian faith stands or falls on the facticity of Scripture.

 

[mumluvsherboys]

Richard Bozrath and Christian Fundamentalists seem to have this in common: they both believe that the Christian faith stands or falls on the facticity of Scripture.

If not for scripture, how we would know God as personally as we do? WE know God through His Works, his creations and his Word. In the Bible it tell explicity what God created. The world tells of other creations.... perhaps these are not God's creations.

 

[artybloke]

We do not trust the world because the world lies, not God.

This is Gnosticism. The universe was created by God. It does not lie. How can an inanimate object lie?

I see clearly what is going on with you mumluvsherboys, and it's not the Lord's work. When so-called Christian "scientists" stop lying, I'll be nice to them. But while they continually misrepresent science as supporting them when it quite plainly does not, then don't expect me to respect them. If they can't respect truth and integrity, why should I respect them?

our evolutionary thinking is extremely modernistic...name one bible character or early church father who believed in anything but creation

The ancient people who wrote the Bible were pre-modernist - they had no concept of science, of historical accuracy, or of evidence-based knowledge and they lived in a world full of stories, myths and poetry. the same people who heard these stories would have heard the stories of Babylon, Sumeria and the surrounding culture. Most of the hearers couldn't read or write, and could assess the story by how authotitative it sounded to them. Of course they believed it; but they couldn't care and couldn't know if it was factual or not. They believed it like they believed in monsters, in illness being caused by God, in divine bolts of lightening - because it was the only way of explaining the world available to them.

That is why we have to read the Bible accounts non-literally - because now we know the facts do not match up to a literalistic interpretation, we have to go to the Bible and find out its meaning and its truth by other means.

Your post is in any case so full of mistaken impressions of what theistic evolutionists think, I do really wonder if you've ever actually sat down and asked what they do say. No TE as far as I'm aware says that God only creates some things while others evolve. TEs state that God created using the very process of evolution itself. There is the mistaken assumption behind this that God onlt works through "miracles" rather than through the general working of the universe. But God works creates evolution, gravity, germs, everything that is. The universe is God's handiwork whether miracle or no.

As for the nonsense about thermodynamics - where do you get this stuff from? Try learning about physics from a physicist, not from some lying creationist. Thermodynamics no more goes against evolution than does giving birth.

 

[mumluvsherboys]

This is Gnosticism. The universe was created by God. It does not lie. How can an inanimate object lie?

I see clearly what is going on with you mumluvsherboys, and it's not the Lord's work. When so-called Christian "scientists" stop lying, I'll be nice to them. But while they continually misrepresent science as supporting them when it quite plainly does not, then don't expect me to respect them. If they can't respect truth and integrity, why should I respect them?



The ancient people who wrote the Bible were pre-modernist - they had no concept of science, of historical accuracy, or of evidence-based knowledge and they lived in a world full of stories, myths and poetry. the same people who heard these stories would have heard the stories of Babylon, Sumeria and the surrounding culture. Most of the hearers couldn't read or write, and could assess the story by how authotitative it sounded to them. Of course they believed it; but they couldn't care and couldn't know if it was factual or not. They believed it like they believed in monsters, in illness being caused by God, in divine bolts of lightening - because it was the only way of explaining the world available to them.

That is why we have to read the Bible accounts non-literally - because now we know the facts do not match up to a literalistic interpretation, we have to go to the Bible and find out its meaning and its truth by other means.

Your post is in any case so full of mistaken impressions of what theistic evolutionists think, I do really wonder if you've ever actually sat down and asked what they do say. No TE as far as I'm aware says that God only creates some things while others evolve. TEs state that God created using the very process of evolution itself. There is the mistaken assumption behind this that God onlt works through "miracles" rather than through the general working of the universe. But God works creates evolution, gravity, germs, everything that is. The universe is God's handiwork whether miracle or no.

As for the nonsense about thermodynamics - where do you get this stuff from? Try learning about physics from a physicist, not from some lying creationist. Thermodynamics no more goes against evolution than does giving birth.

No, it is you that is misrepresenting. Inspired by God is this: Inspired means---God breathed. He put the thoughts in the peoples heads that wrote the bible. The bible was written by God through the hands of man. Man wrote what God told them. Saying that any part of the Bible is false discredits the rest of the Bible, especially our own creation. You have not heeded anything I have said about being respectful. We don't agree with you, therefore we are liars and delusional? Think of this. Satan is the ultimate deceiver. I find it hard to believe he is decieving creationists in our very existance as it is depicted in the Bible (God's Word). I think it more plausable since he (satan) rules the earth that he has decieved your own eyes. Satan did not help write the Bible as I hear you to say, but he certainly is decieving someone. Evolution is a deception created by satan so there is no need for Jesus and there is no God. You continue this path, you will turn people away from God. This is a warning. I recent that you have called me delusional, liar, stupid, among others. This is not Christ-Like at all. I am sure you can get your point across without being rude. I pray deeply that you will find a way that allows for Christ and love to flow through your heart and your words. I have not seen it at all in any of your postings in here or other threads. May God be with you helping you and guiding you to lift others up. God bless.