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Dinosaurs...and Noah's Ark....

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Alessandro

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Alexander the Great (330 BC), when he and his soldiers marched into India, they found that the Indians worshipped huge hissing reptiles that they kept in caves.

China is also renowned for its dragon stories, and dragons are prominent on Chinese pottery, embroidery and carvings.

England has its story of St George, who slew a dragon that lived in a cave.

And so on.
 
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notto

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All those dragon slayings and not one piece of bone, hide, or teeth used as a trophy, clothes, or paper weight.

Sounds like a fish tail to me. (or perhaps folks who found fossilized bones coming out of the ground simply needed to make up a folk story about their origin.)

If we accept that dragons are dinosaurs, does that mean that Paul Bunyon really had a blue ox and created those lakes?

Why are creationists so easy to accept myth as fact when related to stories of dragons as dinosaurs, but then ignore the folklore of other religions, cultures, and ancient history as myth?

How about some consistency?
 
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troodon

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Alessandro said:
The Bible clearly states Behemoth had a tail like a cedar, what animal fits that other than a Brachiosaurus.
Evidently you Completely Ignored my post where I told you why it was impossible for Behemoth to have been a sauropod.
 
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bkane

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Here's a great question...why wouldn't just 1 ligitimate dinasaur still be among us today along with the MANY MANY other OLD reptile species still around....it's really a question of whether or not the dinasaurs were on the ark or not...if they were alive at that time, they would had to have been on the ark, and for the purpose of reproducing and repopulating....I tend to believe they were extinct a long time before Noah, or else at least a few would still be around, instead just OLD OLD bones! The Egyptians would have certainly drawn stories about them...and used them to haul stones for the building of the pyramids with their enormous strength...The potential for interaction with man would be gigantic if they truly co-existed...here's a better idea for the young earth folks concering dinosaurs...How long were Adam and Eve in the Garden before the Fall?? There was no real way to measure time, and certainly no purpose for it...could have been thousands of years...We do know his direct descendants lived almost that long in body of sin AfTER the Fall...how much more B 4?? Or something like God smote the dinasaurs after the Fall due the fact they kept eating the people....at least this gives young earth folks a bit more of a time cushion. Although I think an Old earth fits the overall record with the Word Yom Meaning Epochs...not negating the ability for God to have done it all in an hour if he so chose!
 
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bkane

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Let me amend my above statement regarding Adam and Eve...they would have solar methods of measurement, although the effects of time ie. aging, dying would not have been present for them...what about the animals around them? Wouldn't they have had to survive by eating other animals?? Giant Shark teeth belonging to a 100 foot great white would have been on a plankton diet??
 
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bkane

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Certainly everyone is entitled to an opinion....and no disrespect to anyone from me is intended...As a Christian, we DO have the obligation of rightly dividing the Word...and it obviously isn't always a piece of cake to do it. One thing is sure though, both cannot be right...Both could be wrong (which might just be the case) or 1 is more right than another...The purpose is to make an accurate acount with all of God's truth revealed...and Glorify God with it by sharing it to others....blessings to all who come to a greater understanding of God by these discussions...it is respectful, and should be free of any personal attacks...I really don't want to "have it my way" if it's not the Lords way...honest seekers must think through all the info B 4 a real assessment of the facts can take place....May God bring us closer to himself as we render all the material and guidence by the H.S....
 
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Vance

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bkane said:
Certainly everyone is entitled to an opinion....and no disrespect to anyone from me is intended...As a Christian, we DO have the obligation of rightly dividing the Word...and it obviously isn't always a piece of cake to do it. One thing is sure though, both cannot be right...Both could be wrong (which might just be the case) or 1 is more right than another...The purpose is to make an accurate acount with all of God's truth revealed...and Glorify God with it by sharing it to others....blessings to all who come to a greater understanding of God by these discussions...it is respectful, and should be free of any personal attacks...I really don't want to "have it my way" if it's not the Lords way...honest seekers must think through all the info B 4 a real assessment of the facts can take place....May God bring us closer to himself as we render all the material and guidence by the H.S....
I agree it is not easy to discern all that God has provided us in His Word. To act as if there is a simple, plain answer to most issues is religious arrogance, not to mention insulting for those of us who have spent a great deal of time honestly seeking after truth with the Holy Spirit's guidance. Even then, it is highly unlikely we have all the answers correct, and we should know it. So, it is particularly trying on a person's Christian charity to have someone come in and act like they not only have all the answers, but that these answers are simple and obvious.

And, yes, everyone should make a real assessment of the facts before taking a dogmatic or conclusory statements about what is "true". This means that nobody could argue for or against Creation Science just by reading secular material. And nobody can argue for or against the conventional scientific conclusions by reading primarily Creationist material. In either case, it is not an honest seeking, as you say. In fact, it is religiously and intellectually dishonest.

It seems from these discussions, however, that most of the YEC's have used Creationist material for the vast majority of their information (if not for ALL of their information). The non-YEC's seem to be have at least taken the time to read the arguments from the YEC side of things (and simply found it not credible).
 
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pudmuddle

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Vance said:
I agree it is not easy to discern all that God has provided us in His Word. To act as if there is a simple, plain answer to most issues is religious arrogance, not to mention insulting for those of us who have spent a great deal of time honestly seeking after truth with the Holy Spirit's guidance. Even then, it is highly unlikely we have all the answers correct, and we should know it. So, it is particularly trying on a person's Christian charity to have someone come in and act like they not only have all the answers, but that these answers are simple and obvious.

I agree to a point that we never have all the answers, and will never have them while we exist on this earth. However, I also think there is nothing wrong with a simple reading of the Bible and taking it on faith. Let's face it, many people have too many other things going on in their lives to spend endless hours researching both sides of every issue.


Vance said:
And, yes, everyone should make a real assessment of the facts before taking a dogmatic or conclusory statements about what is "true". This means that nobody could argue for or against Creation Science just by reading secular material. And nobody can argue for or against the conventional scientific conclusions by reading primarily Creationist material. In either case, it is not an honest seeking, as you say. In fact, it is religiously and intellectually dishonest.

It seems from these discussions, however, that most of the YEC's have used Creationist material for the vast majority of their information (if not for ALL of their information). The non-YEC's seem to be have at least taken the time to read the arguments from the YEC side of things (and simply found it not credible).

I think you're over generalizing. I know I have read material from both old and new earth creationist perpectives. Most of the evolutionist material I read is a result of my interest in the past. It is impossible to read most books detailing past cultures without wading through a lot of it. And, a lot of it strikes me as highly speculative in nature. So, yes I question whether it is credible. But, I don't think eithor side has all the answers or even all the questions right, and probably never will. I think God deliberatly leaves some questions hanging as part of the mystery of life.
 
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Vance

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Pudmuddle:

Now that last part I agree with, and that means that we should never make dogmatic statements about things that we can't be quite sure about. When someone comes on this board and makes a short, conclusory statement like "well the Bible clearly says X" or "the answer to that is obviously Y", they are violating every principle you are stating.

And, as for those sites, all I see from the pictures are fanciful beasts. What is not shown is the vast myriad of other creatures from those same time periods that correspond to nothing that has lived: they are just mythological creatures. If artists throughout the millenia are drawing beasts out of their imagination, then of course some of them by chance will bear some resemblance to creatures that have actually lived. That is just the odds. These odds increase when some of the creatures we have around today resemble smaller versions of dinosaurs which the artists imagination can make as big as they like.

The bottom line is that if the theory were true, we *would* have a great deal more substantial evidence than we have now. We would have bones, not fossils, for example. This type of speculative evidence simply weighs almost nothing when compared against the vast amount (and it IS vast) that dinosaurs lived millions of years ago and did NOT live recently.

Regardless, this whole discussion is of little relevance to the main issues involved in origins. Even if some few species of dinosaur or dinosaur-like species lived until recently (the way that sharks and crocodiles and tortoises live today), this would not do anything to disprove that dinosaurs lived millions of years ago. The fossils are there, they have been dated by multiple methods which all agree, and the certainty on these points is VERY high among all those EXCEPT those who decided (for theological reasons) that they did not believe it before they even considered the evidence.
 
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pudmuddle

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Someone said CS Lewis believed in evolution. Apparently he had his doubts:


"That grand myth which I asked you to admire a few minutes ago is not for me a hostile novelty breaking in on my traditional beliefs. On the contrary, that cosmology is what I started from. Deepening distrust and final abandonment of it long preceded my conversion to Christianity. Long before I believed Theology to be true I had already decided that the popular scientific picture at any rate was false. One absolutely central inconsistency ruins it; it is the one we touched on a fortnight ago. The whole picture professes to depend on inferences from observed facts. Unless inference is valid, the whole picture disappears. Unless we can be sure that reality in the remotest nebula or the remotest part obeys the thought--laws of the human scientist here and now in his laboratory-in other words, unless Reason is an absolute--all is in ruins. Yet those who ask me to believe this world picture also ask me to believe that Reason is simply the unforeseen and unintended by-product of mindless matter at one stage of its endless and aimless becoming. Here is flat contradiction. They ask me at the same moment to accept a conclusion and to discredit the only testimony on which that conclusion can be based. The difficulty is to me a fatal one; and the fact that when you put it to many scientists, far from having an answer, they seem not even to understand what the difficulty is, assures me that I have not found a mare's nest but detected a radical disease in their whole mode of thought from the very beginning. The man who has once understood the situation is compelled henceforth to regard the scientific cosmology as being, in principle, a myth; though no doubt a great many true particulars have been worked into it. (1)

It is not irrelevant, in considering the mythical character of this cosmology to notice that the two great imaginative expressions of it are earlier than the evidence: Keats's Hyperion and the Nibelung's Ring are pre-Darwinian works.

After that it is hardly worth noticing minor difficulties. Yet these are many and serious. The Bergsonian critique of orthodox Darwinism is not easy to answer. More disquieting still is Professor D. M. S. Watson's defence. "Evolution itself," he wrote, "is accepted by zoologists not because it has been observed to occur or... can be proved by logically coherent evidence to be true, but because the only alternative, special creation, is clearly incredible." Has it come to that? Does the whole vast structure of modern naturalism depend not on positive evidence but simply on an a priori metaphysical prejudice. Was it devised not to get in facts but to keep out God .Even, however, if Evolution in the strict biological sense has some better grounds than Professor Watson suggests--and I can't help thinking it must--we should distinguish Evolution in this strict sense from what may be called the universal evolutionism of modern thought. By universal evolutionism I mean the belief that the very formula of universal process is from imperfect to perfect, from small beginnings to great endings, from the rudimentary to the elaborate: the belief which makes people find it natural to think that morality springs from savage taboos, adult sentiment from infantile sexual maladjustments, thought from instinct, mind from matter, organic from inorganic, cosmos from chaos. This is perhaps the deepest habit of mind in the contemporary world. It seems to me immensely unplausible, because it makes the general course of nature so very unlike those parts of nature we can observe. You remember the old puzzle as to whether the owl came from the egg or the egg from the owl. The modern acquiescence in universal evolutionism is a kind of optical illusion, produced by attending exclusively to the owls emergence from the egg. We are taught from childhood to notice how the perfect oak grows from the acorn and to forget that the acorn itself was dropped by a perfect oak. We are reminded constantly that the adult human being was an embryo, never that the life of the embryo came from two adult human beings. We love to notice that the express engine of today is the descendant of the "rocket;" we do not equally remember that the " Rocket" springs not from some even more rudimentary engine, but from something much more perfect and complicated than itself-namely, a man of genius. The obviousness or naturalness which most people seem to find in the idea of emergent evolution thus seems to be a pure hallucination.
 
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bkane

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Great point Vance...Many do argue for the sake of pride in their own opinion, rather than looking at ALL sides of an issue...Some folks are so frightened to seek any other truth other than the narrowest of interpretation, they keep things black and white w/o taking time to resolve inconsistencies...thus putting God in a Box with narrow literalism. What's your understanding of the Biblical Record and of the original creation story...I know as a believer, our ultimate source of authority should be that of Scripture. Although sifting God's intended meaning (albeit our lacking) is subject to interpretation on both sides of this issue...You seem to have some great information regarding the Old Earth pespective (if I've understood correctly) and certainly is great food for thought for anyone wishing to contemplate New Earth, Old Earth....I lean toward Old Earth as well although I have a great respect for the intentions of those who feel firm on a Young Earth. I am a Seminary Grad. from years ago, and have always had an interest in ALL research of Dinosaurs which started from a Dwayne Gush/Morris point of view...then after speaking with RC Sproul and others, came to know a true valid position which also Jibes with Scripture without thwarting it...I mean if we're wrong, I still know I'm under Grace..as we all are if we are in Christ....Kinda like the Reformed vs. Armenian understanding...I used to be armenian b4 I became of a reformed understanding. (although I do believe that to be much less controversial than creation/dino debate...I know of no one who was reformed that became an Armenian, but plenty of former Armenians who became Reformed....as well as many proud Armenians who really don't know the fatalism that process of thought employs...anyway, I would be glad to hear your views!
 
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