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Dinosaur and Bird Feathers found in Amber

shernren

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Oh I'm quite sure that number two is correct. But if you feel duped, even by a small percentage, you aren't quick to jump on any bandwagon. A lot of theistic evolutionists I've talked to quickly disregard creationism and call the leaders of the creationist movement willful liars who care more about making a buck than doing any real research.

To be quite frank, there are more adulterous pastors than there are evolution frauds or rude TEs, whether by absolute number or by proportion. And yet I see a lot of churches jump on the whole "pastor" bandwagon.

Simply claiming that everyone's jumping on its bandwagon doesn't necessarily make an idea false.

All I'm saying is that if creationism happened the way the bible says it did, then all science is misled. You can't experiment a supernatural act of God. And people have told me then that God is a liar and nothing in His character shows that He would do it in six literal days, but then I think that's a justification. Because God's own word says how it was done. If you choose a scientist's word over the bible, that's your own choice. But God put forth the Sabbath based upon the seven day week He instituted in the bible as well. I don't see where God's character fits with evolution more than creation when everything I've seen of God points towards the seven-day creation.

Now I don't happen to agree with the "God is a liar if science is wrong" argument, as this post explains. But that doesn't stop me from believing that we have fairly good reason to believe that science is right. Check out this post on why I think it would be an aberration for God to create, or cause a global flood, and then leave plenty of evidence to the contrary.
 
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Jig

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What do you suppose a transitional one would look like?

The feathers shown have many complex codependent and interlocking parts: shafts, vanes, barbs, barbules, etc. How many beneficial mutations would it take to achieve such complexity from a scale? The evolutionary transition from scale to feather would not have started off with such a large amount of complex codependent and interlocking parts. Where are these simpler transitional pre-feather forms?


 
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Calminian

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We know of no reason why God would present to us a world that appears old and appears to have a history that requires age unless it IS old and that history actually took place.

Actually there is a lot of biblical evidence for this. In fact, a great many of Christ's miracles suggest this. Wine is something that normally times time to make. The miracle Christ performed skipped the time process and the one looking at the wine with wrong assumptions would come to a wrong conclusions about its age. The same is true for the fish and bread Jesus created. Bread preparation takes time, and the fish was likely dried. Both would have the appearance of age to those with wrong presuppositions. The same is true of the countless instantaneous healings Jesus performed. Healing normally takes time! The biblical evidence is overwhelming, actually.

And to clear up an oft misunderstood concept, it's not that God created the universe with the appearance of time, in order to deceive us. He rather created the universe via special creation rather than by setting up the natural laws and letting it evolve. But this cannot be said to be deceptive, for He categorically revealed it to be a 6 day event. Thus if you approach your investigation with wrong presuppositions, it's your own fault. You're self deceived. God cannot take any blame.
 
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philadiddle

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Actually there is a lot of biblical evidence for this. In fact, a great many of Christ's miracles suggest this. Wine is something that normally times time to make. The miracle Christ performed skipped the time process and the one looking at the wine with wrong assumptions would come to a wrong conclusions about its age. The same is true for the fish and bread Jesus created. Bread preparation takes time, and the fish was likely dried. Both would have the appearance of age to those with wrong presuppositions. The same is true of the countless instantaneous healings Jesus performed. Healing normally takes time! The biblical evidence is overwhelming, actually.

And to clear up an oft misunderstood concept, it's not that God created the universe with the appearance of time, in order to deceive us. He rather created the universe via special creation rather than by setting up the natural laws and letting it evolve. But this cannot be said to be deceptive, for He categorically revealed it to be a 6 day event. Thus if you approach your investigation with wrong presuppositions, it's your own fault. You're self deceived. God cannot take any blame.
But there wasn't any empty wine bottles with dates and a manufacturers sticker on them. There wasn't receipts for the purchase of the wine. The butler didn't have a memory of buying the wine from the store.

The earth doesn't just look as it would when it was old, ie lots of mountains and layers of rock etc. The earth looks as it would if it actually took a long time to get here. Jesus didn't trick people into thinking the wine was from the store, why would he trick us into thinking the earth took billions of years to form?
 
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Calminian

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But there wasn't any empty wine bottles with dates and a manufacturers sticker on them. There wasn't receipts for the purchase of the wine. The butler didn't have a memory of buying the wine from the store.

And last I checked the universe didn't have any of these things either. No receipts with dates on them. No layers saying, hi I added a layer every year, so count my layers to calculate the age of the earth!

Ironically, we do have a written record (receipts if you will) that claims the earth and heavens are young and were made is 6 days. Yet you don't believe it.

Nice try.
 
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shernren

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Now, I do agree that it's a harsh to call God "deceptive" if the universe has a different age from what it might appear to be. You are right that age labels are things that we stick on the universe, not things the universe comes with. In that one sense, you are correct to say:

And last I checked the universe didn't have any of these things either. No receipts with dates on them. No layers saying, hi I added a layer every year, so count my layers to calculate the age of the earth!

But the point philadiddle is making shouldn't be taken too literally (heh). The way I see it, the point is that there didn't seem to be any unnecessary markers of age on the wine.

The purpose of the wine appearing to be chemically old was so that it would taste good. This purpose is not helped or hindered by, say, the butler remembering that he bought the wine at such and such a date. And given that there seems to be no good reason for the butler to be given such a memory (unless it had actually happened), we would be surprised if we found that the butler did indeed remember buying the wine. If you're honest you would admit that it would at least reduce the credibility of the miracle a little, especially if you began from a point of view wherein it is more likely that a miracle didn't occur.

Now some markers of age are certainly necessary should God decide to create the universe fully formed, ex nihilo. I discussed with lucaspa one example: since scientists believe that carbon was created by supernova processes, the very presence of carbon on Earth indicates that the universe is at least old enough for supernovae to have occurred and for their contents to have been spread across the galaxy. Surely it would be unfair for us to use that as a marker of age: how else would God have created life if not with carbon? The "created recently and fully functioning" hypothesis predicts the presence of carbon at least as well as the "old enough for supernovae" hypothesis.

But there are other evidences for age which the "created recently and fully functioning" hypothesis simply cannot account for. My favorite example is the isotopic ratios of lunar and meteoritic rocks. Lunar and meteoric rocks have certain ratios of isotopes of identical elements which indicate a particular age for them. Were they created as part of a fully functioning universe? Probably not, for the following reasons: firstly, the isotopes are not only inert in terms of nuclear reactions, they also have identical chemistry - only a fairly artificial mass spectrometer test can separate them. God could have scrambled the isotopic ratios of all our rocks and life would (quite literally) go on just fine. Secondly, not only are these isotopic ratios functionally irrelevant, they are found in moon and meteor rocks! Who cares what those rocks are made out of? Surely their composition can't greatly affect the initiation and preservation of life on Earth.

If you are honest with yourself, the moment I said "isotopic ratios of rocks possibly indicate a particular age for them", you were probably thinking "God must have had a purpose for them". And can't that be said of any possible age indicator? No matter how coherent or accurate it is, and no matter how irrelevant it is to the functioning of life, you could still say "but maybe it really does have a functional purpose! You just don't know it yet".

And so your position, while it is logically coherent, turns out to be untestable.
 
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troodon

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ANo layers saying, hi I added a layer every year, so count my layers to calculate the age of the earth!
I have got just the best figure in the world to falsify this claim, but it hasn't been published yet so my advisor would kill me if I posted it. Basically it's a strat sequence from Petrified Forest National Park with U-Pb dates on detrital zircons perfectly lining up with the stratigraphy, younger dates above the older dates. It blew me away when he first showed it to me.

As an alternative, here's a figure from Dickenson and Gehrels (2009)*


ages.png

The letters and corresponding boxes represent different stratigraphic units, with A being the youngest (at the top of the stratigraphy) and H being the oldest (the bottommost unit). You can see that the detrital zircon ages match up quite well with the stratigraphy, giving us the obvious correlation between DZ age (Y axis) and depositional age (X axis), and detrital zircons aren't even the world's greatest thing to date! Love these things. DZs are awesome.

*
[FONT=&quot]Dickinson, W. R. and G. E. Gehrels. 2009. Use of U-Pb ages of detrital zircons to infer maximum depositional ages of strata: A test against a Colorado Plateau Mesozoic database. Earth and Planetary Science Letters 288:115-125[/FONT]
 
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