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Dino Censorship

C

Carmella Prochaska

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A team of researchers gave a presentation at the 2012 Western Pacific Geophysics Meeting in Singapore, August 13–17, at which they gave C-14 dating results from many bone samples from eight dinosaur specimens. All gave dates ranging from 22,000 to 39,000 years.

Dinosaurs supposedly having been extinct for 65 million years aren't supposed to have any C-14 left. The presentation by German physicist, Dr. Thomas Seiler:

Carbon-14 dated dinosaur bones - under 40,000 years old - YouTube

According to a report, the findings were up on the website for The Asia Oceania Geosciences Society, but then “the abstract was removed from the conference website by two chairmen because they could not accept the findings. Unwilling to challenge the data openly, they erased the report from public view without a word to the authors or even to the AOGS officers, until after an investigation. It won’t be restored.”

It's sad that "objectivity" is no longer a major part of science, at least in this case. :doh:
 

hedrick

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The claimed date is near the limits of C-14 dating. Here's the original abstract: Carbon-14 dating dinosaur bones. Note the large variation in ages of different samples from the same dinosaur. While it might be possible to use C-14 up to 50,000 years ago, I think these particular results are noise. At the very least, the error limits shown in the article can't be right. Presumably all samples from a given animal should be with the error limits of each other.
 
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verysincere

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Thanks, I'm interested in stuff like this. I think radiometric dating is the biggest stumbling block to a wide acceptance of YEC.

No. I left the young earth creationist camp after many years as a speaker/author/debater because there was a HUGE volume of contrary evidence---both biblical and scientific. But what upset me most was the lying (including dishonest quote mining) expended in the YEC cause. I was personal convicted of the problem and confronted my colleagues. Everybody was making money on the Bible conference circuit and stood to lose their employment positions (e.g., pastors and Bible college professors) if they admitted that scripture and creation spoke against their claims.

As to Carbon-14, it appears you don't understand asymptotic curves. (After all, you said that Carbon-14 should be "zero" in old samples. Rubbish.)
 
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SkyWriting

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Unwilling to challenge the data openly, they erased the report from public view without a word to the authors or even to the AOGS officers, until after an investigation. It won’t be restored.”[/COLOR][/FONT]

It's sad that "objectivity" is no longer a major part of science, at least in this case. :doh:

It's difficult to comment on a listing that's been removed.
If you could give the time presentation was given, that would help
you make a case that it is missing from the record below.

AOGS 2012

Also a list of the attendees, so we could contact them to see if the lecture
was given as presented. Dr. Thomas Seiler has a record of presenting
information
that show indication of bias against "old earth" ideas. I can see
why they may have removed the record of his presentation. No so much
based on his findings but based on his record that suggests bias.
Bias (as perceived by others) while prevalent, is still condemned as
a crime by science. Unless the bias supports the mainstream ideology.

Like if I gave a lecture showing amino acids on moon rock samples it would
gain a ton of followers who would jump at the chance to confirm my findings.

And if I were to give evidence that all of the Cosmos is sterile, it would be ignored.
Just as it is in this forum. No matter how much support I show, people
refuse to believe it because it goes against what they believe.
 
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SkyWriting

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Originally Posted by ChetSinger
Thanks, I'm interested in stuff like this. I think radiometric dating is the biggest stumbling block to a wide acceptance of YEC.

No. I left the young earth creationist camp after many years as a speaker/author/debater because there was a HUGE volume of contrary evid....<snip>

Well, that would support Chet's statement then.
 
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Papias

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chetsinger wrote:
Thanks, I'm interested in stuff like this. I think radiometric dating is the biggest stumbling block to a wide acceptance of YEC.

It's not just radiometric dating - the dating is confirmed by the agreement of many different methods. Plus, even without that, there is a lot of other evidence for common descent.

As for dating, the question YEC's need to answer is:


"why do the dozens of various dating methods (including C14, K-Ar, varves, dendrochronology, ice cores, obsidian, protein racecimization, speleotherms, superposition, geologic event dating, geomagnetic polarity, Pb/U, association, Rb/St, and others), agree with each other when more than one can be used on the same sample?"


If methods are wrong, they'll give wrong answers. It seems odd to suggest that they'll happen to all give the same "wrong" answer, again and again over hundreds of samples and thousands of tests. Note that this includes tests based on all kinds of very different "clocks". Only some are radioactive - others are based on tree growth, spring thaws, solar vibrations, coral growth, and others. Yet, they all just "happen" to confirm each other? Why, if not that it's because they are all actually measuring the elapsed time?

This has been discussed on post #10, here :

http://www.christianforums.com/t7426528/#post53775303

Papias
 
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verysincere

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It's sad that "objectivity" is no longer a major part of science, at least in this case. :doh:

Illogical inference. Makes no sense.

Conference abstracts are like any other peer-reviewed publishing situation. The publisher/editor is not "censoring" something which fails to meet the standards of the publication and organization.

It is not entirely rare for something to be removed, especially when shoddy procedures, questionable data, or errors are identified or even strongly suspected. If an investigation validates them, a paper or article can always be restored.

Those who say that removal of an abstract is proof of a conspiracy theory or something sinister are betraying their own unfamiliarity with academia and publishing. (I recall one instance where a paper which had seven authors was removed from a conference proceedings because ONE of the authors decided the paper was flawed and he did NOT want the paper to reflect on his career. He pointed out his own flaws to the conference committee and editor and they agreed to remove the paper, despite the protest of the other six authors. That is just one example.)

If the paper and research indeed has merit, it will be published by another journal or conference if not this one. Good research rarely gets ignored for long. I'm tired of these "conspiracy stories", especially when they usually get passed around by people with NO EXPERIENCE in the academic world.

Frankly, a lot more mediocre research would be better off rejected for publication until it is better executed and prepared. I've sat through a number of conference papers which needed a lot more work on them before presentation. Sometimes the underlying research may have been sound but the published result is poorly done--and therefore leaves the reader with too many questions. Ambiguities for example should NOT be prominent in a final published product. If the reader is left with as many questions as answers as to how the research was carried out, the paper should NOT yet have been published. And sometimes recognizing that means that a paper already posted online is removed. This is often done to the BENEFIT of the scholars involved. Nobody benefits when sloppy work is published---especially not the authors.

I too think the data as presented sounds like statistical noise. The curve is asymptotic!
 
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SkyWriting

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Illogical inference. Makes no sense.
Conference abstracts are like any other peer-reviewed publishing situation. The publisher/editor is not "censoring" something which fails to meet the standards of the publication and organization.
It is not entirely rare for something to be removed, especially when shoddy procedures, questionable data, or errors are identified or even strongly suspected. If an investigation validates them, a paper or article can always be restored. Those who say that removal of an abstract is proof of a conspiracy theory or something sinister are betraying their own unfamiliarity with academia and publishing. (I recall one instance where a paper which had seven authors was removed from a conference proceedings because ONE of the authors decided the paper was flawed and he did NOT want the paper to reflect on his career. He pointed out his own flaws to the conference committee and editor and they agreed to remove the paper, despite the protest of the other six authors. That is just one example.)If the paper and research indeed has merit, it will be published by another journal or conference if not this one. Good research rarely gets ignored for long. I'm tired of these "conspiracy stories", especially when they usually get passed around by people with NO EXPERIENCE in the academic world.Frankly, a lot more mediocre research would be better off rejected for publication until it is better executed and prepared. I've sat through a number of conference papers which needed a lot more work on them before presentation. Sometimes the underlying research may have been sound but the published result is poorly done--and therefore leaves the reader with too many questions. Ambiguities for example should NOT be prominent in a final published product. If the reader is left with as many questions as answers as to how the research was carried out, the paper should NOT yet have been published. And sometimes recognizing that means that a paper already posted online is removed. This is often done to the BENEFIT of the scholars involved. Nobody benefits when sloppy work is published---especially not the authors.I too think the data as presented sounds like statistical noise. The curve is asymptotic!

I agree that if there are young dinosaur bones out there, they will bubble up to the cover story of The Smithsonian any day now.
 
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Calminian

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.....If methods are wrong, they'll give wrong answers. It seems odd to suggest that they'll happen to all give the same "wrong" answer, again and again over hundreds of samples and thousands of tests. Note that this includes tests based on all kinds of very different "clocks". Only some are radioactive - others are based on tree growth, spring thaws, solar vibrations, coral growth, and others. Yet, they all just "happen" to confirm each other? Why, if not that it's because they are all actually measuring the elapsed time?

Unless there's an underpinning wrong premise they all share.

Seems to me, some of the events in Genesis may imply more interventions by God that some realize. And maybe these events were so drastic, they affected things on a worldwide scale.

The flood, for instance may seem like a fairly natural event to those reading the account in Genesis (or the multiple flood legends out there). But looking at the narrative closely, it was actually a very unnatural event, that had to be supernaturally brought about. In fact, it's beginning, sustaining and ending were all said to be acts of God. Maybe there's something in the mechanisms God used, that are throwing off scientists&#8212;something that gives the appearance a long period of time was needed.

The same with the Curse of Genesis 3. The text implies there may have been a lot of miraculous changes to the world&#8212;modifications to animals plants and the actual ground. I don't see how scientists can possibly interpret the footprint of those events properly.

If I were to guess, I would say there are 3 events recored in Genesis that have been throwing uniformitarians off track for a long time now. The 6 day creation, the Curse, and the Flood. To this day I'm convinced these were very unnatural events that required Divine intervention to a degree that's completely incompatible with uniformitarian thinking.

My suspicion, as a complete non-scientists, is that the pre-flood world was so different than the post-flood world, the the process that brought about the flood was so unusual and misunderstood, that scientists are forced to believe it must have been millions of years in the past. Whereas I think, the Creator just decided to remodel, and make drastic changes.
 
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Papias

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Cal wrote:

Unless there's an underpinning wrong premise they all share.

Hmm.... OK, let's look at the premises, keeping in mind that we aren't discussing whether or not the premises are right (the agreement of the methods addresses that), but rather whether or not they are the same:

  • radioactive methods assume that radioactive decay happens at the same rate as observed today.
  • Amino racimization assumes that racimization happens at the same rate as observed today.
  • Dendrochronology assumes that trees grow about one ring a year. (that past years had a winter and a summer, or that the earth was tilted).
  • Coral dating assumes that coral grows at a similar rate as it does today.
  • Magnetic dating assumes that magnetism existed back then.
  • Helioseismic dating assumes that sound existed back then, and moved at about the same speed as today.
  • Speleotherms assume that water dissolved some rocks then like it does today (that the solubility laws haven't changed).
  • Varves assume that gravity pulled things in the downward direction in the past as it does today.
  • Obsidian hydration assumes that oxygen reacts with obsidian, and has always done so.
  • etc.
Again, for all these to agree, each assumption would have to be altered in precisely the way needed to make the dates just happen to line up across all these (and more) methods. I don't see an underlying premise that affects them all the same way, aside from Last Thursdayism, do you?

Papias
 
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Calminian

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....Again, for all these to agree, each assumption would have to be altered in precisely the way needed to make the dates just happen to line up across all these (and more) methods. I don't see an underlying premise that affects them all the same way, aside from Last Thursdayism, do you?

Papias

But I'm trying to think about why worldwide events like the creation (universe wide in fact), the Curse (also universe wide as it included the cursing of Satan) and the flood which was global.

I would that that supernatural events like this would affect all of the above. I don't have the background to explain how, but it's hard for me to understand how they couldn't have been.
 
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Papias

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Cal wrote:

I would that that supernatural events like this would affect all of the above. .... it's hard for me to understand how they couldn't have been.

These all could have been changed by supernatural events. That's not the point. The point is that they would have had to have been changed in precise, unlikely ways to get all the different methods to agree on the same old ages.

]Cal, I’m not disputing that the evidence that each of these is based on could be changed supernaturally. If a supernatrural event changed the material of the rocks, fossils, etc, in a way (maybe doubling the amount of radioactivity in it) that messed up the dating method (say, method #1, based on radioactive decay), then that rock or fossil’s measured “age” would be thrown off to some random, “wrong” age, when tested by method #1, right?

So, now think of the same rock, and it is tested by method #2 (which uses, say, the rate of settling due to gravity). Say that the supernatural event also affected gravity, so the gravity based dating method was also thrown off to some random, “wrong” age. That second “wrong” age (given by method #2) could be anything, and is very unlikely to be precisely the same “wrong” age given by method #1. So the “wrong” ages of method #1 and method #2 aren’t likely to be same ages, especially since most of the dating methods give results that can range over millions or more years.


Now, consider the same scenario with method #3. Take the same rock used above, and test it by method #3 (which uses, say, the rate that obsidian reacts with oxygen). Say that the supernatural event also affected initial oxidation level, so the oxidation based dating method was also thrown off to some random, “wrong” age. That third “wrong” age (given by method #3) could be anything, and is very unlikely to be precisely the same “wrong” age given by methods #1 and #2. So the “wrong” ages of methods #1 , #2 and #3 are extremely unlikely to be same ages, especially since most of the dating methods give results that can range over millions or more years.

And continue, through even more dating methods.

The fact of the matter is, that when the same sample is tested by multiple methods, they all –independently - give precisely the same age (within measurement variation). This is the case regardless of which 2, 3, 4, or so on different methods are chosen. They agree if the sample is tested by varves, C-14, dendrochronology, and amino racimization. Or, another sample may be tested by obsidian hydration, thermoluminescence, electron spin, and C-14 – again they all agree. This has been done over literally thousands of samples, with literally millions of results confirming each other. The odds that the methods are “unreliable”, yet still agree over millions of results is, of course, astronomical.

With that being the case, I see two possibilities (feel free to suggest others).

A. That the methods are actually measuring a real age, so the earth really is 4.6 billion years old, and the fossils and rocks are really the ages listed.

B. God supernaturally, carefully, adjusted each different property (the state of radioactivity, the amount of racimized protein, the number of tree rings, etc.) to precisely make all these (and other, untested and undiscovered) methods line up, making it masterfully look, by all measures, that the sample really is precisely as old as we measure by method after method. (which leads directly to Last Thursdayism as well).

OK, looking at those, B seems to suggest that God is deceptive. After all, God knows we’ll find and use these methods, and he knows they’ll all confirm each other (because God is ominiscient). I don’t think God is deceptive. I think God is honest, loving, truthful (indeed, the source of all truth), and infinitely reliable. Based on that, I think A is more likely to be true that B. – in other words, that these dozens of dating methods, which all confirm each other and are consistent with all the other revelations of our glorious God, are correct.


In Christ's love-

Papias

 
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Calminian

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Cal wrote:



These all could have been changed by supernatural events. That's not the point. The point is that they would have had to have been changed in precise, unlikely ways to get all the different methods to agree on the same old ages.

]Cal, I&#8217;m not disputing that the evidence that each of these is based on could be changed supernaturally. If a supernatrural event changed the material of the rocks, fossils, etc, in a way (maybe doubling the amount of radioactivity in it) that messed up the dating method (say, method #1, based on radioactive decay), then that rock or fossil&#8217;s measured &#8220;age&#8221; would be thrown off to some random, &#8220;wrong&#8221; age, when tested by method #1, right? ...


But it would seem that a broad event would indeed affect a broad number of things.

If a mechanism God used affected dating method A, why would it not affect dating method B? If the event was universal affecting the whole earth, why wouldn't it affect the whole earth? Why would it be selective.

Seems the Food in particular is an event that includes more than just meets the eye. For God to submerge land and then resurface it seems amazingly complicated. No flood of a similar nature has come since (according to God).

And then there's the changes that came afterward. The reduction in lifespans, the rainbow phenomenon that was apparently not there before!

When I see paleontologists describe the past say 65 millions years ago, I have the feeling they are merely describing the antediluvian world. That's how drastic the change from world to world was. Warmer climate, bigger animals, etc., etc.

Having said all that I admit I can't refute your point. I just don't have the technical knowledge to build on my premise. I was hoping you could put a hypothetical scenario for me just for kicks.
 
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Papias

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But it would seem that a broad event would indeed affect a broad number of things.

If a mechanism God used affected dating method A, why would it not affect dating method B? If the event was universal affecting the whole earth, why wouldn't it affect the whole earth? Why would it be selective.

That's exactly my point. Because it would have affected many properties, and because the methods all work differently, it would have been very unlikely to throw them off to the same "wrong" age. For the old age history confirmed by many different methods to be false, that "broad event" would have had to have made very specific, different, and precisely unlikely changes to many different properties of practically all material on earth.

Even if it did, God would certainly have been aware of it, and it would have been under his control- it would have had to have been his will - so to reject the geological timeframe accepted by practically all geologists (and originally framed by Christians), is to suggest that God is deceptive.

That's part of the reason why old earth creationists accept the confirmed geological timeframe - they do so to the glory of God.

Having said all that I admit I can't refute your point. I just don't have the technical knowledge to build on my premise. I was hoping you could put a hypothetical scenario for me just for kicks.

Yes, interesting discussion! Have a good day-

-Equinox
 
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Calminian

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That's exactly my point. Because it would have affected many properties, and because the methods all work differently, it would have been very unlikely to throw them off to the same "wrong" age. ...

I'm not getting the why part of this yet.

If something is broad in scope so as to affect the entire world, why is it unlikely it would affect everything in the world?
 
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Papias

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Cal wrote:

I'm not getting the why part of this yet.

OK, let me try again.


If something is broad in scope so as to affect the entire world, why is it unlikely it would affect everything in the world?

Of course it would affect everyting in the world. My point is that to match what we see, it would have to affect everything in the world in very specific ways, which are very unlikely.

Let me try another example. Long sections of the geologic column are found all over the world (in fact, most land areas contain one of many long sections - under where I am in Michigan, for instance, the rock below my house makes a stack from the archean up through the precambrian, cambrian, and so on up to the missippian).

Now, when any stack like this is dated, multiple methods confirm each other and give the standard dates. A hypothetical example, say for my house here, take a rock from each of the layers and date it by method one (say by geomagnetic polarity). (each method here is accurate to + or - 5 million years).

Method 1 Gives:
~952, ~521, ~476, ~413 and ~368 million years, respectively, for those 5 rocks

Now take those same 5 rocks, test by Method 2 (say, based on U to Pb)
Method 2 gives:
~954, ~526, ~477, ~414 and ~372 million years, respectively, for those same 5 rocks

Now take those same 5 rocks, test by Method 3 (say, based on coral growth)
Method 3 gives:
~951, ~519, ~478, ~411 and ~366 million years, respectively, for those same 5 rocks

As you can see, the different methods, based on different phenomena, confirm each other. Plus, in practice, this isn't done on just 5 rocks, but on a dozen or more layers, with multiple points for each one - and they still all confirm each other.

Now, if that were because a flood or something affected rocks everywhere on the whole world, then look what it would have had to do.

Take my five rocks. To get those dates using method #1, the "event" would have had to change the magnetism of each rock to give the precise ages listed. It couldn't have just changed the whole group to the same magenetism, because then they'd all come back with the same age (say, of 0.03 million years).

Now, for method #2 to agree, that same "event" would have had to change the radioactive isotope level of each rock to give the precise ages listed, which just happened to be the same ones given by geomagnetism. It couldn't have just changed the whole group to the same radioactive isotope level, because then they'd all come back with the same age (say, of 5,856 million years).

Now, for method #3 to agree with #1 and #2, that same "event" would have had also to change the coral growth level of each rock to give the precise ages listed by the other two methods, which just happened to be the same ones given by geomagnetism and radioactive decay. It couldn't have just changed the whole group to the same coral growth level, because then they'd all come back with the same age (say, of 13 million years).

Now, multiply that whole scenario for every single location on earth that has been tested, and add dozens of other additional methods, again, with all the results confirming each other - giving the same ages for each rock, each fossil, each layer, even though the methods are based on different phenomena, which would have been affected differently by a flood or such.

See why to get that whole consistent, multiply confirmed story in location after location, though different rock chemistries and different local conditions, across literally thousands of locations on earth, God would certainly have been aware of it, and it would have been under his control- it would have had to have been his will - so to reject the geological timeframe accepted by practically all geologists (and originally framed by Christians), is to suggest that God is deceptive?

Papias
 
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Calminian

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Papias, can you give me an example of a mechanism that God may have used that could throw off one of these dating methods, but leave the rest in tact? The key is, it can't be for the purpose of merely resetting a dating method. It would have to be a mechanism He used in either brining about the Flood (or the end of the Flood) or the Fall, which then had the peripheral effect of somehow resetting a particular dating method. It would be a miracle of course, but a purposeful one.

I know this is odd because I'm asking you to think like a YEC creationist. But I'd be curious what you might be able to come up with given your background.

In fact, hang on, I'll start a new thread.
 
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SkyWriting

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Papias, can you give me an example of a mechanism that God may have used that could throw off one of these dating methods, but leave the rest intact?


When Jesus turned water into wine, any dating methods
would be a different result from as-the-story-reads.
John 2 Parallel Chapters
 
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