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digging in the garden

Robban

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Hi folks,
Been doing some digging in the "Christian garden", dont know where I got that expression from, well with about 2 billion plants, why not?
While digging Ive hit a couple stones, btw Careful not to damage the plants. First sten, Jesus referred to himself as "the son of man" Many refer to him as the "son of God".NT Luke 3:38 ends in "son to Adam, son to God.Well is Jesus the son or is Adam the son.
Second sten, If it is, as is beleived by Christians that because of Adams sin everyone is doomed to burn for all eternity, unless they accept a solution offered by another son, or through another son. It may have made more sense, if it said Adam came back and took his punishment,
Third stone, If so, "why so many years later".
I just want to get my digging done so that I can move on. Regards
Robban.
 

ebia

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Hi folks,
Been doing some digging in the "Christian garden", dont know where I got that expression from, well with about 2 billion plants, why not?
While digging Ive hit a couple stones, btw Careful not to damage the plants. First sten, Jesus referred to himself as "the son of man" Many refer to him as the "son of God".NT Luke 3:38 ends in "son to Adam, son to God.Well is Jesus the son or is Adam the son.
Depends what sense one is using the phrase. Phrases like "Son of God" have more that one meaning. Luke uses it, not unreasonably, to make a theological point about Jesus's relationship to Adam. The Old Testament generally uses it to refer to Israel, and hence to Israel's representative King (Kingship in Old Testament thinking is primarily a representative function - what is true of the People is true of the King, and vice-versa). So when Jesus implied he was Son of God that would not have been heard as a claim of divinity but as a claim to be the Annointed Davidic King - the Messiah.

Only after Jesus Ascension do Christians - probably starting with Paul - start to realise that, in the light of his actions and claims vindicated by his Resurrection, Jesus is 'Son of God' in ways far deeper than that.

Second sten, If it is, as is beleived by Christians that because of Adams sin everyone is doomed to burn for all eternity, unless they accept a solution offered by another son, or through another son.
That's somewhat of a card-board cuttout of how the thinking works.

Third stone, If so, "why so many years later".
A quick run down on the whole biblical metanarrative, only within which does Jesus make any sense:
Genesis 1-2: two complementary descriptions of God's intention for creation
Genesis 3: a narrative explanation of why creation doesn't look like 1&2 say it should
Genesis 4-5: an expansion on the consequences of that
Genesis 6-9 (the story of Noah): a narrative explanation of why God cannot get rid of evil by force - it runs down the middle of each one of us, including the 'righteous' Noah.
Genesis 10-11: linking material
Genesis 12: The call of Abraham. This is the start of God's plan to put the world to rights, by working in and through a representative people (who are fallen themselves) to bring the whole of creation back to Him.
Jesus comes as the climax of, and only as the climax of, that long story of Israel - a story continued in the church. When people are broken, you can't fix them up by waving a magic-want, you fix them up by the long, hard, slog of working alongside them. And that will be, as the OT makes abundantly clear, a long and messy process with as many set-backs as steps forward.

What Jesus was and did is not something that could have happened at any time and place and God arbitrarily picked Jerusalem in 30AD. It is something that all of Israel's history had been building towards, and all subsequent history builds from.
 
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Maranatha27

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Hi Robban,

The term Son of Man is taken from the book of Daniel. Christ loved using this expression, and used it when referring to his humanity.

Daniel 7: [13] I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
[14] And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

You might have been digging in the garden, but you barely got any dirt on your spade. The Bible teaches the Christ would come from eternity (Micah 5:2), be born of a woman and have no earthly father (Isa 7:14) . God would be His Father, and thats just what the Bible states, the Holy Spirit conceived in Mary's womb (Luke 1: 34,35). Christ was truly both the The Son of Man and The Son of God, There is no contradiction.

You state correctly that the Bible teaches Adams disobedience of God, brought sin to the human race and sin brought death. The results of sin were seen immediately in the next generation when Abel was slain by his brother Cain. Even in those early chapters of humanity we see Christ. satan was told by God That Eves seed would destroy him in Genesis 3:15. This seed is Christ. The shedding of blood is seen for the "covering" of sin and as the OT progresses we see Jehovah's suffering servant more clearly. The animal blood covered sin, the High Priest would enter the Holy of Holies once a year to make atonement or to cover Israels sin for one year. When John saw Jesus coming coming John 1: The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Why So long? I have no clue
 
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OldChurchGuy

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Hi folks,
Been doing some digging in the "Christian garden", dont know where I got that expression from, well with about 2 billion plants, why not?
While digging Ive hit a couple stones, btw Careful not to damage the plants. First sten, Jesus referred to himself as "the son of man" Many refer to him as the "son of God".NT Luke 3:38 ends in "son to Adam, son to God.Well is Jesus the son or is Adam the son.
Second sten, If it is, as is beleived by Christians that because of Adams sin everyone is doomed to burn for all eternity, unless they accept a solution offered by another son, or through another son. It may have made more sense, if it said Adam came back and took his punishment,
Third stone, If so, "why so many years later".
I just want to get my digging done so that I can move on. Regards
Robban.

As was pointed out earlier, "Son of Man" first appears in the book of Daniel but I am not aware of any precise explanation as to it's exact meaning. It is my understanding Jesus the Christ was God incarnate. Presuming that understanding is accurate, then it would seem Adam is the son of God.

The idea of "original sin" began as a response to Gnosticism in the early church according to this link in Wikipedia: Original sin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The idea is not explicitly spelled out in the Bible and is not an idea in Judaism but appears to be unique to Christianity. To me, it has never made sense but it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.

As to why the length of time, I also have no clue.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
 
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Robban

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Hi ebia,Maranatha,OldChurchGuy,
Thank you for responding, I have put my NT,s in a box in the cellar about two years ago. Have been using them since 87 when I went to the first meeting with my wife. The real reason why I came to this forum was because a thought came to me. If anyone is going to throw away a coat for example they usually feel in the pockets to see if there is anything of value before throwing it away. Since 87 and attending these meetings plus a lot work in the place. Well there is a lot to be said but I wanted to keep it short ,that why I picked three stones which are in someway personal to me. There are many things one can bring up. In a way it feels for me as if its been a lot of work for Laban. And as Jacob went back to get something so also I. This is just a short thanks for your time, will be back though later today.
In the meantime something for ebia, The two geneologies of Jesus are inconsistent.
In Luke it says "son to Natan, son to David. In Mathew it says David to Salomo.
In Luke it is assuming that Josef is the father of Jesus but that dosnt add up, if Jesus
had no biological father.
Robban.
 
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ebia

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In the meantime something for ebia, The two geneologies of Jesus are inconsistent.
In Luke it says "son to Natan, son to David. In Mathew it says David to Salomo.
In Luke it is assuming that Josef is the father of Jesus but that dosnt add up, if Jesus
had no biological father.
Robban.
And???

The geneaologies (in Luke and Matthew, and anywhere else in the bible or the rest of the ancient world for that matter) are about theology and connections, not about genetics.
 
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JCFantasy23

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Robban

I was just reading something about this earlier tonight when studying Barnes commentary on the book of Matthew. It helps with some of the geneology questions. To answer your question, our Saviour is BOTH the son of man and the son of God.

Here is the section (a little long, but it should help you with your questions)

The Son of David, The word son, among the Jews, had a great variety of significations. It means, literally, a son; then a grandson; a descendant; an adopted son; a disciple, or one who is an object of tender affection-one who is to us as a son. In this place it means a descendant of David; or one who was of the family of David. It was important to trace the genealogy of Jesus up to David, because the promise had been made that the Messiah should be of his family, and all the Jews expected it would be so. It would be impossible, therefore, to convince a Jew that Jesus was the Messiah, unless it could be shown that he was descended from David. See Jeremiah 23:5 Psalms 132:10,11; compared with Acts 13:23, John 7:42.

The Son of Abraham. The descendant of Abraham. The promise was made to Abraham also. See Genesis 12:3; 21:12; comp. Hebrews 11:13; Galatians 3:16. The Jews expected that the Messiah would be descended from him; and it was important, therefore, to trace the genealogy up to him also. Though Jesus was of humble birth, yet he was descended from most illustrious ancestors. Abraham, the father of the faithful-" the beauteous model of an eastern prince,"-and David, the sweet psalmist of Israel, the conqueror, the magnificent and victorious leader of the people of God, were both among his ancestors. From these two persons, the most eminent for piety, and the most renowned for their excellencies of all the men of antiquity, sacred or profane, the Lord Jesus was descended; and though his birth and life were humble, yet they who regard an illustrious descent as of value, may find here all that is to be admired in piety, purity, patriotism, splendour, dignity, and renown.

(*) "generation of Jesus Christ" Luke 3:33
(*) "son of David" Psalms 132:11, Matthew 22:45, Acts 2:30
(*) "son of Abraham" Genesis 22:18, Galatians 3:16

Verses 2-16. Matthew 1:3.

Verse 2.
(*) "begat Isaac" Genesis 21:2-5
(*) "begat Judah" Genesis 25:26

Verses 2-16. These verses contain the genealogy of Jesus. Luke also (Luke 3:1) gives a genealogy of the Messiah. No two passages of Scripture have caused more difficulty than these, and various attempts have been made to explain them. There are two sources of difficulty in these catalogues: first, many names that are found in the Old Testament are here omitted; and second, the tables of Matthew and Luke appear in many points to be different. From Adam to Abraham, Luke only has given the record. From Abraham to David the two tables are alike. Of course there is no difficulty in reconciling these two parts of the tables. The difficulty lies in that part of the genealogy from David to Christ. There they are entirely different. They are manifestly different lives. Not only are the names different, but Luke has mentioned, in this part of the genealogy, no less than forty-two names, while Matthew has recorded but twenty-seven.

Various ways have been proposed to explain this difficulty; and it must be admitted that none of them are perfectly satisfactory. It does not comport with the design of these Notes to enter minutely into an explanation of the perplexities of these passages. All that can be done is to suggest the various ways in which attempts have been made to explain them.

(1.) It is remarked that in nothing are mistakes more likely to occur than in such tables. From the similarity of names, and the various names by which the same person is often called, and from many other causes, errors would be more likely to creep into the text in genealogical tables than in other writings. Some of the difficulties may have possibly occurred front this cause.

(2.) Most interpreters have supposed that Matthew gives the genealogy of Joseph, and Luke that of Mary. They were both descended from David, but in different lines. This solution derives some plausibility from the fact that the promise was made to David; and as Jesus was not the son of Joseph, it was important to show that Mary was also descended from him. Though this solution is plausible, and may be true, yet it wants evidence. It cannot, however, be proved that this was not the design of Luke.

(3.) It has been said, also, that Joseph was the legal son and heir of Heli, though the real son of Jacob, and thus the two lines terminated in him. This was the ancient explanation of most of the fathers, and on the whole is the most satisfactory. It was a law of the Jews, that if a man died without children, his brother should marry his widow. Thus the two lines might have been intermingled. According to this solution, which was first proposed by Africanus, Matthan, descended from Solomon, married Estha, of whom was born Jacob. After Matthan's death, Matthat being of the same tribe, but of another family, remarried his widow, and of this marriage Heli was born. Jacob and Heli were therefore children of the same mother. Hell dying without children, his brother Jacob married his widow, and begat Joseph, who was thus the legal son of Heli. This is agreeable to the account in the two evangelists. Matthew says that Jacob begat Joseph; Luke says that Joseph was the son of Heli; that is, was his legal heir, or reckoned in law to be his son. This can be seen by the plan on the next page, showing the nature of the connexion.

Though these solutions may not seem to be entirely satisfactory, yet there are two additional considerations which should set the matter at rest, and lead to the conclusion that the narratives are not really inconsistent.

(1.) No difficulty was ever found, or alleged, in regard to them, by any of the early enemies of Christianity. There is no evidence that they ever adduced them as containing a contradiction. Many of those enemies were acute, learned, and able; and they show by their writings that they were not indisposed to detect all the errors that could possibly be found in the sacred narrative. Now, it is to be remembered that the Jews were fully competent to show that these tables were incorrect, if they were really so; and it is clear that they were fully disposed, if possible, to do it. The fact, therefore, that it is not done, is clear evidence that they thought it to be correct. The same may be said of the acute pagans who wrote against Christianity. None of them have called in question the correctness of these tables. This is full proof that, in a time when it was easy to understand these tables, they were believed to be correct.

(2.) The evangelists are not responsible for the correctness of these tables. They are responsible only for what was their real and professed object to do. What was that object? It was to prove, to the satisfaction of the Jews, that Jesus was descended from David, and therefore that there was no argument from his ancestry that he was not the promised Messiah. Now, to make this out it was not necessary, nor would it have conduced to their argument, to have formed a new table of genealogy. All that could be done was, to go to the family records-to the Public tables-and copy them as they were actually kept, and show that, according to the records of the nation, Jesus was descended from David. This, among the Jews, was full and decided testimony in the case. And this was doubtless done. In the same way, the records of a family among us, as they are kept by the family, are proof in courts of justice now, of the birth, names, etc., of individuals. Nor is it necessary or proper for a court to call them in question, or to attempt to correct them. So the tables here are good evidence to the only point that the writers wished to establish; that is, to show to the Jews that Jesus of Nazareth was descended from David. All that can be asked now is, whether they copied the tables of those families correctly. It is clear that no man can prove that they did not so copy them, and, therefore, that no one can adduce them as an argument against the correctness of the New Testament.
—Barnes' Notes on the New Testament
 
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Robban

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ebia,Maranatha 27,OldChurchGuy,JCFantasy23,
i thank you for your honest replies.
First I dont have a problem conjuring up a picture of Jesus who seems to have been a Torah observant Jew who maybe according to some "overstepped the mark" so to speak. John says "the word became flesh" no problem with that either, a matter of reading and doing. Actions not just words.
Dont want to get into deep discussions, I dont think that would be beneficial.
What I gave up on was everything that has been built up around Jesus.
Original sin, is a new concept introduced by Paul, Rom 5:12,fully developed by Augastine of Hippo. But it dosnt fit in with what God says to Cain in Gen 4:6-7.
So God says of sin "that you may rule over it". On forgiveness, God held the door open for Cain And doing so to this very day, the door is true repentance, the
sacrifice is a broken heart. Ps 32. What really did it for me was Esekiel 18, I was ill at the time laying and reading, when I read Esekiel 18 it blew my socks off. i was on my feet shortly after,well again. This is Gods open door to both Jews and non-Jews.
Nineve is a good example. It is of great importance that "the Messiah" must be a direct descendent of King David and King Solomon. The total of criteria for "the Messiah" is found in Esekiel 37:24-28.
Well its all about a personal relationship with God, because at the end of the day each and every one of will have to answer for themselves.
I have already made my mind up, I telephoned my brother some months back, it came like out of the blue "It is difficult to live with one foot in yersterday and other in today"
So I,ll just get my coat. all the best Folks
will look in now and then though.
Regards
Robban.
 
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Van

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Hi Robban, lets look at the stones you have dug up in the garden. First, since Adam was thrown out of the garden of Eden, you must be digging in the garden of satan who is the ruler of this world.

Jesus referred to Himself as the Son of God and the Son of Man. The assertion He is the Son of God is an assertion that He is of the same essence as God, just as when I say I am the son of humans, I am claiming to be human. At least one of the times the Jews heard Him make that claim, they picked up stones :) to throw at Him because He was claiming to be God.

Now as attractive as it might seem to say when Jesus said He was the Son of Man, He was claiming to be human, born in the usual way, that would be completely in error. The Son of Man is code for claiming to be the Messiah, the Christ, the Anointed One of God, our deliverer, our savior, our redeemer. Daniel refers to the Messiah as "something like the son of man."

Second stone, it is believed by many Christians that by Adam's sin, the many (all of mankind) were made sinners. And also all sinners who do not obtain mercy through faith in Christ will be tossed into the Lake of Fire and destroyed.

Footnote, Jesus is the Son of God meaning He is God. Adam was a "son of God" meaning Adam was made by God as part of His creation. So Adam had no human father and mother, but was the first "man" whereas Jesus had no earthly father because God in the person of the Word became flesh supernaturally, born of a virgin.

Continuing with the second stone, because we were made sinners because of Adam's sin, then it follows that we are being punished for Adam's sin, so why is God punishing us rather than His son Adam? We (mankind) are not being punished for Adam's sin. Consider this scenario, a person is getting ready to put his full faith and devotion in Christ, but has not yet done it, and so has not yet received mercy. In this condition, someone murders him. And so he goes to Hades. Now is he being punished for the sin of his murder? Nope. He is being punished for the sins he committed prior to his death. So we (mankind) are sinners as a consequence of Adam's sin - he spiritually murdered us - but we are not being punished for that sin, but for our own.

Third stone, why did God wait so many years (between the life of Adam and the life of Christ) to provide the possibility of avoiding Hades? Answer: He did not! Recall that Old testament Saints obtained the promises of God and entered Paradise shortly after Christ died on the cross. Hebrews 11:39-40. So between the time of Adam and Jesus, humans who obtained approval by faith were taken to a place of comfort (Abraham's bosom) and held there (like in a temporary holding cell with all the comforts of home) until Christ took the captives to Paradise.

If you find any more stones, as you move on, tending the garden, search the Word of Him who removes hearts of stone. :)
 
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JCFantasy23

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So I,ll just get my coat. all the best Folks
will look in now and then though.
Regards
Robban.


And all the best to you. Hoping you return to the forums soon :thumbsup: May God bless your journeys.
 
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