Different state past

dad · Mar 30, 2012

rambot said:
You are saying that the God was not bound by the natural laws pre OR post shift.
Is that correct?

? How could God be bound by laws He made?

Well not really. YOu pretty flippantly said "Oh yes. And this carbon based, oxygen and glucose consuming life form lived through a fundamental shift in the existence of space time and a transformational event changing every natural law in existence COMPLETELY unaffected and didn't feel the need to tell anyone about it in a clear and concise fashion.

Right. Many lived at the time the change occurred. Hey, if the forces affecting the atoms in your body are changed, does that mean you vaporize??

That's not exactly "nothing" you know..... That's not a claim that should be made with no physical evidence.

Notice that men started to live a lot shorter lives after the flood, and specially the split, or nature change? Something affected living people.

NGC 6712 · Mar 30, 2012

dad said:
Notice that men started to live a lot shorter lives after the flood

Now now. You know that has zero evidence for it. Especially since there was no "flood" anyway. People live longer today than they ever have for the most part.

dad · Mar 30, 2012

NGC 6712 said:
Now now. You know that has zero evidence for it. Especially since there was no "flood" anyway. People live longer today than they ever have for the most part.

Now now. You know that has zero evidence for there being no flood. You have no clue how long man lived 5000 years ago. Even Egypt records somewhat longer lives early in history. Sumer also, even bigger. Tut tut.

rambot · Mar 30, 2012

dad said:
? Hoiw could God be bound by laws He made?

I agree. But then why does your understanding of the creation story RELY on his being bound to the laws?
So in the different state past, well, I guess God just did things differently but he subjugated himself to THOSE laws.
What I argue is that God did NOT subjugate to a "Different state past", he simply transcended this state, and the same previous state.

Right. Many lived at the time the change occurred. Hey, if the forces affecting the atoms in your body are changed, does that mean you vaporize??

Does your hyperbole indicate you think that NOTHING would happen?

Notice that men started to live a lot shorter lives after the flood, and specially the split, or nature change? Something affected living people.

How do you KNOW that? You could only DEDUCE that.

I still can't fathom why God would change all the known laws in the universe and wouldn't think to say somewhere in the old JEwish history books he did that...something nice and clear.

I mean, should us Christians be praised for our reading comprehension skills? Westboro Baptist Church congregants, the Pope, and C.S. Lewis all read the same bible... essentially.

verysincere · Mar 30, 2012

dad said:
You know that has zero evidence for there being no flood.

Even if I could figure out what that means, I would still have entire paragraphs yet to be deciphered.

My face and palm are bruised so I've had my fill.

dad · Mar 30, 2012

rambot said:
I agree. But then why does your understanding of the creation story RELY on his being bound to the laws?

It doesn't. But the need for special intervention is eliminated. No fairies needed for every tree that grew fast or man that lived a long time...etc.

So in the different state past, well, I guess God just did things differently but he subjugated himself to THOSE laws.

Noo. But the earth had to have had laws. That means man.

What I argue is that God did NOT subjugate to a "Different state past", he simply transcended this state, and the same previous state.

? Say what?

Does your hyperbole indicate you think that NOTHING would happen?
How do you KNOW that? You could only DEDUCE that.

Plenty happened I suspect. Man no longer could communicate for one thing. As in Babel. Continents separated. But of course this was at the time when we could not communicate so expect no records

I expect death would be a prominent feature of society...hey heard of the tombs of Egypt and pyramids?!

I still can't fathom why God would change all the known laws in the universe and wouldn't think to say somewhere in the old JEwish history books he did that...something nice and clear.

Now that it is clear...what is your excuse?

I mean, should us Christians be praised for our reading comprehension skills? Westboro Baptist Church congregants, the Pope, and C.S. Lewis all read the same bible... essentially.

Right. Some read, but not all understand. I have the advantage of science. Looking at the known continental separation, and fossil record and etc etc...as well as God's word to mankind....a picture begins to emerge....

dad · Mar 30, 2012

verysincere said:
Even if I could figure out what that means, I would still have entire paragraphs yet to be deciphered.

My face and palm are bruised so I've had my fill.

Hate to interrupt your painfest here, but the meaning is clear. No evidence or science exists to say that there was no flood. Period.

Tiberius · Mar 30, 2012

For those of you just joining this thread, it can be summed up thusly:

Dad has said that the laws of the universe - gravity, radioactive decay and so on - either did not operate in the deep past, or operated differently.

The only evidence (I hesitate to use the term) he has for this claim is that his interpretation of the Bible tells him so. He totally ignores any and all attempts to point out that as the person making the unsupported claim, the onus is on him to back it up. So far all he's given us is repeated claims, and vague claims that "history and logic" support him (although he's never specified exactly what parts of history or logic support his notions).

Now you can save yourself the bother of reading something that will make your brain melt.

dad · Mar 30, 2012

Tiberius said:
For those of you just joining this thread, it can be summed up thusly:

Dad has said that the laws of the universe - gravity, radioactive decay and so on - either did not operate in the deep past, or operated differently.

The only evidence (I hesitate to use the term) he has for this claim is that his interpretation of the Bible tells him so. He totally ignores any and all attempts to point out that as the person making the unsupported claim, the onus is on him to back it up.

The bible and history back it up. Nothing backs up your required present state in the past nonsense.

So far all he's given us is repeated claims, and vague claims that "history and logic" support him (although he's never specified exactly what parts of history or logic support his notions).

The parts where long life spans and spirits among men and etc come into play. It is logical to ask you to prove the same state past you so desperately claim for no apparent reason.

Now you can save yourself the bother of reading something that will make your brain melt.

Better still, watch science get roasted. At the stake.

Elendur · Mar 30, 2012

dad said:
Hate to interrupt your painfest here, but the meaning is clear. No evidence or science exists to say that there was no flood. Period.

I asked you to define evidence before, but it seems you forgot what evidence is.

There is plenty evidence for same state past (against your flood and instant growth) and very lacking evidence for for different state past (only some interpretations of the bible, if I'm not mistaken).

You've also written several times that science assumes same state past, it doesn't.
It's a conclusion derived from several different fields of science. All evidence points to a same state past (or veeeeeeery close to).

What you do, however, when dismissing the evidence given is that you work by the assumption that there was a different state past.

Elendur · Mar 30, 2012

dad said:
The parts where long life spans and spirits among men and etc come into play. It is logical to ask you to prove the same state past you so desperately claim for no apparent reason.

These long life spans you're talking about, where does this information come from?

dad · Mar 30, 2012

Elendur said:
These long life spans you're talking about, where does this information come from?

History and the bible. Where else?? The doubts about the records on life spans...support? Oh...don't have any? I know.

dad · Mar 30, 2012

Elendur said:
I asked you to define evidence before, but it seems you forgot what evidence is.

There is plenty evidence for same state past (against your flood and instant growth)

Spare us the drama then and present this evidence!!??

and very lacking evidence for for different state past (only some interpretations of the bible, if I'm not mistaken).

Sumer also recorded long lives and Egypt recorded spirits among men. Have you proof they were crazy liars?

You've also written several times that science assumes same state past, it doesn't.
It's a conclusion derived from several different fields of science. All evidence points to a same state past (or veeeeeeery close to).

Balderdash. It is believed and assumed. Nothing whatsoever more. I kid you not

What you do, however, when dismissing the evidence given is that you work by the assumption that there was a different state past.

I dismiss NO evidence ever. You present none! Lurkers...did you detect hard evidence in his silly rambling little posts?

Elendur · Mar 30, 2012

dad said:
History and the bible. Where else?? The doubts about the records on life spans...support? Oh...don't have any? I know.

Show me this history then, and remember that you have claimed it's outside of the bible.

AV1611VET · Mar 30, 2012

Tiberius said:
Now you can save yourself the bother of reading something that will make your brain melt.

Hmmm ... somehow your brain is the exception? or are you demonstrating your point?

Elendur · Mar 30, 2012

dad said:
Spare us the drama then and present this evidence!!??

Elendur · Mar 30, 2012

Btw, I would gladly see more from other readers, I'm still stockpiling it though.

Tiberius · Mar 30, 2012

dad said:
The bible and history back it up. Nothing backs up your required present state in the past nonsense.

What SPECIFIC part of history backs up this different state past idea of yours, dad?

The parts where long life spans and spirits among men and etc come into play. It is logical to ask you to prove the same state past you so desperately claim for no apparent reason.

How have you verified that people really did live incredibly long lives back then?

Better still, watch science get roasted. At the stake.

You keep saying this, but it never happens. Why not, dad?

Tiberius · Mar 30, 2012

AV1611VET said:
Hmmm ... somehow your brain is the exception? or are you demonstrating your point?

Oh, so nice to see you trying to subtly insult others, AV. Such a good example you are setting for your fellow Christian.

Anyway, there's a big difference between participating in a thread since the beginning (or near to it), and reading the whole thread in one go.

AV1611VET · Mar 30, 2012

Tiberius said:
How have you verified that people really did live incredibly long lives back then?

The truth is, we live incredibly short lives today.

James 4:14b For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.

Different state past

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