Different laws for Jews and Gentiles?

[curious mike]

A rabbi told me there are "7 commandments for Jews", I can't believe God will have preference for any one group of people? I would think we are all God's children and he will treat us all equally?

 

[jason1]

The rabbi is pushing noahide laws for gentiles. He is wrong and you are right:

Exo_12:49 “There is one Torah for the native-born and for the stranger who sojourns among you.”

Num_15:29 ‘For him who does whatever by mistake there is one Torah, both for him who is native among the children of Yisra’ĕl and for the stranger who sojourns in their midst.

You will notice that the stranger is among them. The torah (law) was the rule of the land (kingdom). It is much like the US constitution in that all who live here are under it. That being said, once a gentile accepts the Creator of the universe and enters covenant with him, then this gentile becomes part of the people of Israel (chosen seed) and is bound by all the torah (a citizen of heaven). Granted, we can't perform all the laws while out of the land and in exile, but they are still there and eternal and for our future when we enter the kingdom once again.

For now, do the ones that pertain to you and you are able to perform (All the 10 commandments are able to be kept as well as other morality laws).

 

[curious mike]

I will meet with the Rabbi next month, will mention that verse and will let you know what he responds with, until then thanks for the answers and God bless!

 

[BABerean2]

There are some who cannot let go of the Sinai covenant and embrace the New Blood Covenant, instead.
Some even claim the New Covenant is a "renewal" of the Sinai covenant.
What do we find in the text?



Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:


Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
(The Sinai covenant was added 430 years "after" the promise to Abraham and did not change the promise.)


Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
(The inheritance does not come through the Sinai covenant. If comes through the promise to Abraham.)


Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
(The Sinai covenant was added "until" the seed (Christ) could come.)




Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
(It is those in-Christ who are the seed of Abraham and inherit the promise. Bloodline is no longer a factor.) Romans 9:6-8



Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. (Here Paul compares the Sinai Covenant to slavery.)

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
(New Jerusalem is now in heaven. It is not about the earthly Jerusalem.)

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. (Paul says we are to cast out the Sinai covenant.)

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
(We are children of the New Blood Covenant of the Messiah.)


Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
(This text comes from Jeremiah chapter 31.)

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
(This occurs due to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.)

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (The New Covenant has made the Sinai covenant "obsolete".)


Heb_7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.


Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,





1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

.

 

[jason1]

That is a very well reasoned argument against the law Berean and I thank you for making it. It helps show me how christians turn away from the Word of the Creator better. Lets clear up why the argument is wrong:

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

How can you post that He will put his laws inside of them, yet in the next breath say those laws are done away with? The laws don't change.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

This is so true: 2Pe_3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

With that said, what law was added? It was not the torah because that came from the beginning (noah knew it). The law that was added was the administration of it (which is what hebrews talks all about). The levitical system was added (Gal 3:19) because the people sinned (golden calf). The levites rose up and defended the Word of Elohim and they were the teachers of torah from then on out. It isn't the written law that was done away with, it was who was in charge of enforcing it until the seed comes (didn't the temple get destroyed in 70ad and thus for the last 2000 years the levites have not been in charge?)

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

The word "covenant" is not in the text. It is often italicized which mean it was added by the translators. What was the problem that hebrews talks about? Its not the torah, its the earthly, fleshly people who serve as high priests. What is the 2nd being talked of? A new priesthood (which is found in torah in genesis).

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (The New Covenant has made the Sinai covenant "obsolete".)

The sinai covenant wasn't made obsolete, it was refreshed with better promises (which is what the new covenant is). What waxed old and vanished was the levitical system.

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. (Paul says we are to cast out the Sinai covenant.)

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
(We are children of the New Blood Covenant of the Messiah.)

What is the bondwoman? It is slavery to flesh, a system, and really talking about ORAL LAW. What makes you free?

Jas_2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Joh_8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (torah is the truth)

Really think about the things I said and pray if it is true. If so, you must repent and turn back to your Creator and obey every word that proceeds out of His mouth. This is stuff of life and death:

1Jn_2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

 

[BABerean2]

That is a very well reasoned argument against the law Berean and I thank you for making it. It helps show me how christians turn away from the Word of the Creator better. Lets clear up why the argument is wrong:



How can you post that He will put his laws inside of them, yet in the next breath say those laws are done away with? The laws don't change.



This is so true: 2Pe_3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

With that said, what law was added? It was not the torah because that came from the beginning (noah knew it). The law that was added was the administration of it (which is what hebrews talks all about). The levitical system was added (Gal 3:19) because the people sinned (golden calf). The levites rose up and defended the Word of Elohim and they were the teachers of torah from then on out. It isn't the written law that was done away with, it was who was in charge of enforcing it until the seed comes (didn't the temple get destroyed in 70ad and thus for the last 2000 years the levites have not been in charge?)



The word "covenant" is not in the text. It is often italicized which mean it was added by the translators. What was the problem that hebrews talks about? Its not the torah, its the earthly, fleshly people who serve as high priests. What is the 2nd being talked of? A new priesthood (which is found in torah in genesis).



The sinai covenant wasn't made obsolete, it was refreshed with better promises (which is what the new covenant is). What waxed old and vanished was the levitical system.



What is the bondwoman? It is slavery to flesh, a system, and really talking about ORAL LAW. What makes you free?

Jas_2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Joh_8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (torah is the truth)

Really think about the things I said and pray if it is true. If so, you must repent and turn back to your Creator and obey every word that proceeds out of His mouth. This is stuff of life and death:

1Jn_2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

What is the Sinai covenant?

Heb_9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;

Was there a change of the law?

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Let it go, Brother.

We are under the Promise made to Abraham.


Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

We are under a higher law than the Sinai Covenant.
We are under the Law of Christ.

He is our Sabbath Rest...

The Covenants and the Sabbath

 

[jason1]

Was there a change of the law?

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

You answered your own question: the change was with the priesthood administration. Hebrews talks much on this.

We are under the Law of Christ.

Law of Christ is the same as the Law of YHVH. He didn't bring new laws and he didn't erase old laws:

Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to complete.
Mat 5:18 “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done.
Mat 5:19 “Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens.

He is our Sabbath Rest...

What does that silly saying even mean? Christians eat it up, but it makes no sense...

Heb_4:9 So there remains a Sabbath-keeping for the people of Elohim.

 

[BABerean2]

You answered your own question: the change was with the priesthood administration. Hebrews talks much on this.



Law of Christ is the same as the Law of YHVH. He didn't bring new laws and he didn't erase old laws:

Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to complete.
Mat 5:18 “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done.
Mat 5:19 “Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens.



What does that silly saying even mean? Christians eat it up, but it makes no sense...

Heb_4:9 So there remains a Sabbath-keeping for the people of Elohim.

You seem to have missed one small, but important word, in Matthew chapter 5.

.
Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to complete.
(He came to complete the Torah that the Israelites had broken.)

Mat 5:18 “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done. (He was the only One to ever keep the Torah.)

Mat 5:19 “Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens.
(If you murder and teach others to do so, you cannot be a part of the New Blood Covenant of the Messiah.)

The saying makes no sense, because you are attempting to do what only the Messiah could do...



1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.


1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.


1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

If His Spirit is inside of you, the Lord of the Sabbath is in you every day of the week.

A doctrine that places the emphasis on the Torah, instead of the Messiah, cannot be correct.
Some are promoting the doctrine of Torah, Torah, Torah.

Sadly, many today have become modern day Judaizers.
Watch this video to completion, to find out if you are one of them...

Divine Curse of the Hebrew Roots Movement

 

[jason1]

Mat 5:18 “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done. (He was the only One to ever keep the Torah.)

So are you insinuating that heaven and earth have passed away? (mind blown)

A doctrine that places the emphasis on the Torah, instead of the Messiah, cannot be correct.

Sadly, many today have become modern day Judaizers.

Torah is not to be taken in place of messiah and vice versa. They are one in the same. In the beginning was the WORD and the WORD was with Elohim and the WORD was Elohim. Jesus's laws are the same as his Father's. Trying to make it only about belief and lovey feelings is completely wrong. It has always been about obedience.

What does a judaizer do? Is it to get them to obey torah or is it more about getting them to obey ORAL law and man-made religious constructs? Think this answer out to find the error in your assumption.

I'm sorry I don't want to spend two hours of my time watching a false teacher say the law is done away with.

 

[BABerean2]

So are you insinuating that heaven and earth have passed away? (mind blown)



Torah is not to be taken in place of messiah and vice versa. They are one in the same. In the beginning was the WORD and the WORD was with Elohim and the WORD was Elohim. Jesus's laws are the same as his Father's. Trying to make it only about belief and lovey feelings is completely wrong. It has always been about obedience.

What does a judaizer do? Is it to get them to obey torah or is it more about getting them to obey ORAL law and man-made religious constructs? Think this answer out to find the error in your assumption.

I'm sorry I don't want to spend two hours of my time watching a false teacher say the law is done away with.

Whatever you do, make sure you do not watch the video about modern day Judaizers, who place their focus on Torah keeping instead of the Messiah.

Again, please do not watch the video I posted. Instead, you keep all of the Torah just like Yeshua did.

It will be a total waste of your time to find out if you are doing what Paul spoke against in the Book of Galatians.

Keep pretending that what Paul spoke against in Galatians chapter 4 was just the "Oral Law", instead of the Sinai Covenant, written on the tablets of stone.

Never, ever, watch that video...


Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

.

 

[jason1]

Whatever you do, make sure you do not watch the video about modern day Judaizers, who place their focus on Torah keeping instead of the Messiah.

Again, please do not watch the video I posted. Instead, you keep all of the Torah just like Yeshua did.

It will be a total waste of your time to find out if you are doing what Paul spoke against in the Book of Galatians.

Keep pretending that what Paul spoke against in Galatians chapter 4 was just the "Oral Law", instead of the Sinai Covenant, written on the tablets of stone.

Never, ever, watch that video...


Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

.

Lol, is that your attempt at reverse psychology?

#1. Paul cannot change the law just because his letters are placed at the back of the book.
#2. Paul was talking about oral law. That is what Jesus and Paul came against because the religious rulers were adding to the torah and making it a burden (against deu 4:2). In the passage you posted in galations, if you read that as "oral law" then you can indeed see how the grace of the Creator is frustrated. What happens is you place the focus of salvation on men and not on the Creator and His ways.

Here is a little chart I threw together. Pick which side you fall on:

http://www.waytozion.org/articles/line.htm

 

[BABerean2]

Lol, is that your attempt at reverse psychology?

#1. Paul cannot change the law just because his letters are placed at the back of the book.
#2. Paul was talking about oral law. That is what Jesus and Paul came against because the religious rulers were adding to the torah and making it a burden (against deu 4:2). In the passage you posted in galations, if you read that as "oral law" then you can indeed see how the grace of the Creator is frustrated. What happens is you place the focus of salvation on men and not on the Creator and His ways.

Here is a little chart I threw together. Pick which side you fall on:

http://www.waytozion.org/articles/line.htm

I want to be on the side which allows the Messiah to do what I cannot do for myself, by living a perfect life of keeping the Torah and then taking the wrath of God that I deserve, because I am a rotten sinner who cannot save himself.

It is Grace that separates our faith from all the others, including Judaism.

Anything else is us attempting to do something to make us worthy of being in the presence of God.
It is the same as all the other religions in the world, which believe we must work our way to God.

A friend of mine has become a Messianic Jew and invited me to worship with her family on Sabbath.
After doing a little research I discovered that I could not travel over one mile to get to her home on Sabbath, without breaking the Sabbath. When I explained the situation to her, she did not seem concerned. Maybe she is not really serious about keeping the Sabbath. The Rabbi that attends her worship drives over 10 miles to reach her house. He must also start a fire in his car's engine to get there.

It helped me understand why the Israelites were not able to keep the Torah added at Sinai.

Abraham was given different commandments. For example, he was to circumcise his male children.

Do you come down on the Judaizers side and say that all of the males in the New Covenant must also be circumcised in the flesh?

And remember, do not watch the video...

 

[jason1]

A friend of mine has become a Messianic Jew and invited me to worship with her family on Sabbath.
After doing a little research I discovered that I could not travel over one mile to get to her home on Sabbath, without breaking the Sabbath. When I explained the situation to her, she did not seem concerned. Maybe she is not really serious about keeping the Sabbath. The Rabbi that attends her worship drives over 10 miles to reach her house. He must also start a fire in his car's engine to get there.

You were studying oral laws of judaism in regards to the sabbath and not scripture here. They have over 1000 laws on how to obey the sabbath, yet scripture only lays out 7. Do you see why yeshua said that they made it a burden to keep?

Abraham was given different commandments. For example, he was to circumcise his male children.

Abraham had the same laws except for the levitical system. Today it is still a sign of the abrahamic covenant to circumcise your males. I had my son circumcised on the eighth day. Was there any harm in that? Studies show it is healthy.

It is Grace that separates our faith from all the others, including Judaism.

It has always been grace that saves you as nobody deserves eternal life. What you aren't seeming to understand is that you won't get grace if you don't show yourself approved by doing His will. The covenant has terms and if you fail those terms you bring destruction on yourself. Simply believing is not enough because even the demons believe and tremble. Walking the path of obediences shows the King that you submit to His rulership and He will bestow His grace on you. Jesus redeemed us (bought us back) from spiritual death, but you still must obey.

 

[BABerean2]

Abraham had the same laws except for the levitical system. Today it is still a sign of the abrahamic covenant to circumcise your males. I had my son circumcised on the eighth day. Was there any harm in that? Studies show it is healthy.

Can you show some scripture to verify your first sentence about Abraham.

I was circumcised as an infant, also.

I am not asking if it is healthy, because studies have shown it is due to some diseases.

I am asking is it a requirement in the New Covenant, based on the Apostle Paul's words in the Book of Galatians and the words of Luke in Acts chapter 15?
.

 

[jason1]

Can you show some scripture to verify your first sentence about Abraham.

Absolutely:

Gen 26:4 “And I shall increase your seed like the stars of the heavens, and I shall give all these lands to your seed. And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed,
Gen 26:5 because Aḇraham obeyed My voice and guarded My Charge: My commands, My laws, and My Torot 1.” Footnote: 1Torot - plural of Torah, teaching

I am asking is it a requirement in the New Covenant, based on the Apostle Paul's words in the Book of Galatians and the words of Luke in Acts chapter 15?

Gen 17:11 “And you shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall become a sign of the covenant between Me and you.
Gen 17:12 “And a son of eight days is circumcised by you, every male child in your generations, he who is born in your house or bought with silver from any foreigner who is not of your seed.
Gen 17:13 “He who is born in your house, and he who is bought with your silver, has to be circumcised. So shall My covenant be in your flesh, for an everlasting covenant.

Question to you: Did the everlasting covenant with Abraham disappear with the new covenant, or is the new covenant added onto the abrahamic covenant?

 

[BABerean2]

Absolutely:

Gen 26:4 “And I shall increase your seed like the stars of the heavens, and I shall give all these lands to your seed. And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed,
Gen 26:5 because Aḇraham obeyed My voice and guarded My Charge: My commands, My laws, and My Torot 1.” Footnote: 1Torot - plural of Torah, teaching



Gen 17:11 “And you shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall become a sign of the covenant between Me and you.
Gen 17:12 “And a son of eight days is circumcised by you, every male child in your generations, he who is born in your house or bought with silver from any foreigner who is not of your seed.
Gen 17:13 “He who is born in your house, and he who is bought with your silver, has to be circumcised. So shall My covenant be in your flesh, for an everlasting covenant.

Question to you: Did the everlasting covenant with Abraham disappear with the new covenant, or is the new covenant added onto the abrahamic covenant?

The promises to Abraham were made to only One Seed in Galatians 3:16.
We inherit the promises through Him, instead of through our circumcision. Galatians 3:29


Act 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Act 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

Act 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Act 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

Act 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:

Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Act 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

Act 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Act 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.



Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


Gal_2:3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:

What I think really does not matter.
What we find plainly written in the text is what we must accept as the truth in the New Blood Covenant.

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[jason1]

On the surface your argument appears sound, but there should be multiple things that bother the reader:

1. Four things were laid upon new converts to observe. Does that mean it is ok for them to break the rest of the law such as murder, steal, etc?

2. What was so troubling for new converts to keep about the law?

3. Why were some teaching circumcision first to the new converts?

Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

These four commandments were picked out for them to follow. Are these laws of Jesus, laws of the Creator, or laws of the Disciples? Why these four? Aren't there more important laws than these?

These four requirements (upon first entry) are so that the gentiles who had just left a pagan faith could now worship the true Elohim (with the jews) and do it in a way that is not like they used to. How did pagans worship? They used idols, they had temple prostitutes, they drank blood, and apparently had things strangled. I also learned yesterday that they often offered pigs, dogs, and donkeys as opposed to YHVH requiring bulls, lambs, and goats (and pigeons).

So now we have the basis to start worship which is where we move onto that dreaded "law" thing. What was the problem in acts 15 with the law and circumcision? The problem was that they were requiring new converts to observe everything the law required all at once and convert to judaism (which includes ORAL law). What was such a burden for the israelites that is talked about over and over - ORAL law. What is a new convert to do? They are to learn moses:

Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

You see from the next verse after the 4 requirements it shows that they will be learning moses EACH SABBATH. This is where instruction in the scriptures came from.

Secondly, circumcision is no small thing and they didn't have anesthesia back then. This would have been a big barrier to entry for many. What does circumcision allow you to do?

- Eat the Passover
- Enter the Temple

Ez 44:9 “Thus says YHVH Elohim: No foreigner, uncircumcised in heart and flesh, of all the foreigners who are among the people of Israel, shall enter my sanctuary.

Thus we can see that converts can eventually get circumcised once they learn the merits and want to participate, but it should not be a barrier to entry and should not be taken as a badge of judaism.

To learn more about acts 15 this is a great read:

http://www.torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/Acts 15.pdf


And chew on these awhile while you're at it:

Exo_12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Num_15:16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

 

[BABerean2]

On the surface your argument appears sound, but there should be multiple things that bother the reader:

Yes. You ignored the fact that Titus was not circumcised and the fact that the Apostle Paul never said anything about being circumcised "later" in the Book of Galatians.

You are also claiming it was the "Oral Law" that was the problem.

However, in the Book of Paul uses the word "covenant", which is not referring just to the oral law.


Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Here Paul compares the Sinai "covenant" to slavery.
You cannot claim this is referring to the "Oral Law".

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Cast out the Sinai covenant of bondage.

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.





Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.


Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.


Verse 21 shows that the 4 things from the prior verse were also preached in the synagogues.
However, your claim that they were to later be circumcised is destroyed by the Book of Galatians.

If you want to interpret the New Covenant through the Old Testament and ignore the Book of Galatians and parts of the Book of Acts you may be able to hold onto your desire to save yourself by attempting to keep the Torah.

However, the Messiah is the only One who could keep it.

Check out the link below to a Messianic ministry that my wife and I support.

Torah and the Messianic Believer
Sam Nadler: Word of Messiah Ministries

http://wordofmessiah.org/messianic-...am-nadler/torah-and-the-messianic-believ​​er/

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[jason1]

If you want to interpret the New Covenant through the Old Testament and ignore the Book of Galatians and parts of the Book of Acts you may be able to hold onto your desire to save yourself by attempting to keep the Torah.

Only YHVH saves. His word is the path He created to bring us to Him.


Now think about your statement for a little bit. Should the NT be interpreted through the OT or vice versa? Which is the true foundation to build off of?

Joh_10:35 “If He called them elohim, to whom the word of Elohim came – and it is impossible for the Scripture to be broken –
Pro 13:14 The Torah of the wise is a fountain of life, Turning one away from the snares of death.Luk6:46 And why call ye me,

• Luk6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
• Luk6:47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
• Luk6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
• Luk 6:49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

We see that the torah is the foundation to build your theology on (its in the beginning of the book even)

So from there we work forward and not start at the end of the book and work backwards. With that rule in place, do we take Paul's letters as more authoritative, or foundation that was laid as more authoritative (remember, rocks don't move - also remember Jesus is the rock - meaning Jesus = torah). Paul cannot change scripture, not the foundation. With that 2nd rule, we either brand him as a heretic if he tries to change it (how could you spot an antichrist?), or we look to see if Paul lines up with scripture and supports it. I say he supports it when you understand what he is saying.

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

How is Jerusalem in bondage? Does torah (or sinai) do this?

Joh_8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Jas_2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Deu10:13 to guard the commands of יהוה and His laws which I command you today for your good?
Mat_11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. (remember, Jesus is the Word and his commands are torah)

So we see that the torah is freedom and not bondage. What was Paul talking about then? He was showing that the ORAL LAW was what put the true children of promise into bondage.

Mat_23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

So to reiterate: We are not children of the bondwoman (pharasaic judaism & oral law), we are children of the promise (pure torah aka words of Elohim)

Yes. You ignored the fact that Titus was not circumcised and the fact that the Apostle Paul never said anything about being circumcised "later" in the Book of Galatians.

It is true titus wasn't circumcised. But let me ask you this: Could titus eat the passover? Could titus go to the temple? The answer is no to both according to torah. Why wasn't he compelled I do not know, but that in no way changes torah.

This page on galations shows the controversy of what Paul was coming against and how circumcision played a roll in it:

http://www.eliyah.com/galatianskjv.html

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[jason1]

I checked out the website page you posted and it is riddled with errors. Most of the problems seems to stem from, yet again, the lack of understanding that it is ORAL LAW that was set up as being opposed in NT scripture and not the WRITTEN LAW. Most of the conclusions come straight from the christian church and their wrong view on law.

What does the "repent" part of the gospel mean to you?