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differences in doctrine

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Veritas

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Shelb5 said:
Actually it’s N’awlins, Luzanna… d’awlin.
Sorry, being a Northwesterner, my "phonetic" spelling of Southern drawls is not great. I do my best, however. My dad tells me that there are regional differences, too. So I have heard people from Louisianna pronounce it just like the rest of us. Oh well. Now, here's one for you. How do you say Oregon?


Peace and Grace to you,


Veritas
 
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Filia Mariae

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Lando,

I'm glad to see you here. :wave:

I think we'll have a more productive discussion if you identify one or two specific topics you'd like to discuss. It could be Scriptural interpretation, salvation, the Eucharist, whatever.

But a general "What are the differences?" is really hard to answer.

Welcome to OBOB!
 
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Skripper

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Michelina said:
This is what I love about Protestant beliefs! You never know what they're gonna say. The Trinity is traditonal Baptist doctrine, but in any Protestant congregation you can hear all sorts of stuff......But they can't see the need for a Magisterium. Do they think God is stupid?
Or, in the words of the immortal Forrest Gump ... "You never know what you're gonna get.":)
 
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kimber1

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to the OP: i am a recent former Baptist myself. i'll tell you a couple main differences.
Baptist's believe OSAS whereas Catholics believe it's a work in progress.
Baptist's deny the Real Prescence at communion or the Lord's Supper or the Eucharist.
Baptist's don't believe one should listen to the Pope as an authority ( that may be papal infallability--someone feel free to correct me if i'm wrong ;))
Baptist's believe in the Bible alone rather than adhere to any traditions.

well, these are just a few, and please understand this is from my own personal experiences with my old Baptist church. IMO to sit in on a Baptist sermon it's more "man-based" whereas going to Mass is more "God-based". and again i absolutely mean no disrespect, these are just my personal opinions. in the Baptist church i attended it was more of an interpretation of the Scriptures by what the pastor thought than what God means. does that make sense?
 
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lando

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ok, this is somewhat frustrating. did you read 1 Corinthians 5, michelina? because if you did then you would know that paul kicked that sexual immoral person from the church. this is the same with the baptists and anabaptist. the baptist approached the anas and told them of their incorrect ways. the anas refused to repent. the baptists started their own church because of the wide corruption within the anabaptist church and the baptist could not purge the anabaptist church of the corruption. it is the exact same thing as chapter 5 only with a larger amount of people. they did not assume anything they took the power that God gave them in scripture. is it not plainly and clearly there? they did not go against any law found in the bible, they only fulfilled what paul called them to do. they did not create a new religion or anything they only followed what the bible taught. you speak as if they were a cult. and by the way Joseph Smith is the founder of the Mormon church and a liar and i'm insulted that you would compare baptist founders to him. and yes God does reside within the walls of his church. is he not everywhere? did he not say that wherever two are gathered in my name i surely will be with them?

in Him,
lando
 
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Michelina

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lando said:
ok, this is somewhat frustrating. did you read 1 Corinthians 5, michelina? because if you did then you would know that paul kicked that sexual immoral person from the church. this is the same with the baptists and anabaptist. the baptist approached the anas and told them of their incorrect ways. the anas refused to repent. the baptists started their own church because of the wide corruption within the anabaptist church and the baptist could not purge the anabaptist church of the corruption. it is the exact same thing as chapter 5 only with a larger amount of people.

No, lando, it is not the same. Paul was an Apostle and a Bishop of the one Church established by Jesus. As such, he had the authority to excommunicate. The folks you mention did not, nor did they have the authority to start another Church. Paul did not start another Church.

lando said:
they did not assume anything they took the power that God gave them in scripture. is it not plainly and clearly there? they did not go against any law found in the bible, they only fulfilled what paul called them to do. they did not create a new religion or anything they only followed what the bible taught. you speak as if they were a cult. and

God never gave them authority to start a new Church. He had already established One and guaranteed that He would be with Her til the End, 'the consummation of the world'.


by the way Joseph Smith is the founder of the Mormon church and a liar and i'm insulted that you would compare baptist founders to him.

No offense intended. I asked if your founders said that they had a special "revelation" to justify what they did. I am, btw, glad that you love your Church.

and yes God does reside within the walls of his church. is he not everywhere? did he not say that wherever two are gathered in my name i surely will be with them?

Yes, He is in your Church in the same sense that He is everywhere else. But I didn't think you meant that when you referred to Prestonwood Baptisit Church as a House wherein He 'resides'.

And He is in the hearts of those who gather in his name, whether it be in a Church building or an outdoor fellowship barbecue.
 
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Cary.Melvin

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lando said:
as i said earlier, the Bible gave the baptists the right to judge. if you don't believe me then read it yourself in 1 Corinthians 5.
I read over 1 Corinthians 5, and I don't see anywhere in there that gives the Baptist Church the right to judge anyone. I don't even see the word Baptist in the whole Chapter.

This is an occation where Paul (an Apostle) is punishing an individual by exclusion from the church for being in a state of mortal sin and being unrepentant.

I don't see how the Baptist Chuch which has no Apostolic ordination whatso ever would have any authority to excomunicate any Christian. They could ask them to leave and they would probable head down the street to another church that would welcome them with open arms.

Excomunication from the Catholic Church is serious business and is rarely done officialy unless someone is particulary dangerous to the rest of the flock. And when you are excomunicated, you are not just excumunicated out of a particular church but from the entire body of Christ. A place where no salvation is posible.
 
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Cary.Melvin

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lando said:
and if i'm correct did not paul call the temple of the Holy Spirit your own body in 1 Corinthians 6:19? therefore since Christ lives in us and his temple is found within in us how can a gathering of Christians under a roof not be called a houes of God. he resides their with his sheep, does he not?
I believe that Jesus is with all Christians wherever they may reside. He definitly resides with his sheep. But, I must say a lot of Christians are not acting very sheep-like. They appoint their own shepards (a pastor or themselves), instead of following the authority of the Church he left us.
 
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Skripper

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This is somewhat long, but worth reading, and possibly helpful. In fact, it's so long, it won't fit into one post:

Biblical Evidence for the Importance of Apostolic Succession and Mandate in the Universal Christian Church and in the Local Christian churches




The Catholic Church makes an astounding claim about itself; that it is the original Christian Church and the only one that can trace itself back, through the successors of Peter—really, truly and historically through time, to the apostles-- and to Christ Himself. That it is, therefore, the only Christian Church with Jesus as its divine Founder—biblically, historically, authentically and, consequently, the only one guaranteed by Jesus to be protected from doctrinal error by His Personal guidance through the Holy Spirit. Of course we are talking here in the “C” sense of the meaning of the word “church”. The Church here meaning the visible, Universal Church of Jesus Christ. But that’s not the only concept and sense of the word “church” found in Scripture.



In one sense, (a sense denied by many Christians), the “C” Church is a quite visible, identifiable institution, founded by Christ, having St. Peter and his successors minding the store as its visible, earthly leaders while Jesus is visibly away in heaven (Christ, of course, always being the invisible Head of His Church). We see Scripture refer to the Church in this sense when Christ says, in Matthew 16, that He intends to build a church on St. Peter that the powers of hell will not prevail against. This is also the concept of the church St. Paul must have had in mind when describing the ecclesial punishment of what we refer to today as “excommunication” (See 1 Cor. 5:5, 11-13; 1 Tim 1:20). This must be so because without one, visible, unified and identifiable Church, the whole concept of excommunication itself becomes meaningless and pointless. No one can very well be “excommunicated” from a Church that has no visible structure.



We also see the Church operating in this sense at the first Church council in Acts chapter 15. Here we see the Church (which at the time was still based in Jerusalem) deciding what is doctrinally correct and therefore binding upon, the “c” churches (i.e. the local churches) elsewhere, (in Antioch, Syria, Cilicia, etc.). We see this same concept of Church expressed as we continue into Acts chapter 16 when St. Paul, after picking up Timothy in Lystra, goes “from city to city” handing on to the local churches the decisions reached by the central Church leaders in Jerusalem. (Acts 16:4). It is also in this sense that it is the Church that is the “pillar and foundation of truth” as described in 1 Timothy 3:15.



The fact that the word “church” is never capitalized in modern biblical translations isn’t relevant, since we can determine from the scriptural context, with a little help from the constant Tradition of the Christian Church (the lens through which all Sacred Scripture is properly focused and interpreted) which sense of the word “church” applies in any given passage of Sacred Scripture. Also, it should be noted that in the original biblical manuscripts there were no grammatical punctuations. The mixture of capital and lower case lettering and even comas, periods, paragraphs, chapter and verse numbering—all were later additions by translators and editors. None of that was present in the original manuscripts.



In another sense, the “C” concept of Church is simply the body of Christ in the sense of all believers (1 Corinthians 12: 12ff; Col. 1: 18; Ephesians 5: 30; Romans 12: 4-5, etc.). This concept of Church as a loose and, actually, “invisible” body, made up of a loosely and invisibly bound common affiliation of all believers is, almost exclusively, the only concept of a universal Church that most Protestants recognize and accept, which is a pity, because sadly, this renders many scriptural passages virtually meaningless, if not down right nonsensical, which we’ll briefly look at momentarily.



And in yet another sense, Scripture speaks of “church” in the context of the local church(s), made up of the assemblies of believers in any given local geographical area. Then, of course, there is the context in which church simply refers to a building.



What we must not do, (and, unfortunately, what most Protestants in fact usually do), is to deny the existence of a central, organized and visible Church with authority over local churches. Because if we do, then, as mentioned above, much of Scripture is rendered meaningless. For example, if Christians deny the “C” concept of Church in its visible, institutional sense and only allow for an invisible Church as the loosely connected “body of believers”, then the following passages of Scripture lose any real meaning (as does the passage mentioned earlier regarding the first Church Council in Acts 15):



John 10: 16: “…there shall be one fold and one Shepherd.” How does that work with the Church as only a loose “body of believers” all adhering, to one degree or another, to differing and often conflicting doctrines, as we see in the Christian church world outside of the Catholic Church?



Romans 16:17: “I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who create dissensions and obstacles, in opposition to the teaching that you learned; avoid them.” What sense does this make if “the Church” is simply a loosely affiliated body of believers? Since that which is “dissension” in one “church” may very well be “unity of belief” at, say, Pastor Joe’s store front “church” down the street.



1 Corinthians 1: 10: “I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose.” Is this to be understood in the context of local churches only? That we should all just agree in our local churches only, without respect to the larger Church? That wouldn’t make sense, would it? And it couldn’t mean Church in the sense of a loosely affiliated body of believers either. Because where is the unity of mind and purpose in such a loosely held concept of Church? Yet that’s exactly what we have in Protestantism. Within Protestantism there isn’t even agreement or unity of purpose regarding such core doctrines as baptism, (Is it even necessary? Should infants be baptized? What method? Pouring? Immersion?), whether or not salvation can be lost, whether or not God exists as a Trinity, just to name a few. So, it’s painfully obvious that St. Paul must have in mind the “C” concept of Church, united in belief and purpose, that is only possible with one, visible and authentic apostolic Church.



Or how about Jesus’ words in Mark 3: 24: “If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.” What is Protestantism if not a “kingdom divided”, a “house divided”? Certainly “the Church” as a loosely affiliated body of believers, which Protestantism is, is a house divided. But “the Church” in the Catholic sense, in the visible and united sense, continues to stand. This is precisely why we see the ever-continuing “church splits” that are so common within the Protestant church world, while the Catholic Church continues, with Christ’s steady guidance and unity, steady as a rock. The Protestant “house divided” doesn’t stand but continually fragments. While the unified Catholic Church, the authentic, apostolically mandated “scriptural model” of “C”Church, keeps right on going, united. Yes, of course there is always dissent within the Church, but that’s considerably different than the church splits and fragmentation constantly occurring in the countless Protestant churches.



I could go on and on about the theme of unity that reoccurs over and over again in the Bible. Unity that can only be found in Christ’s one, true, visible Church on earth (See also 1 Cor. 11: 17-19; Ephesians 4: 3-5; Philippians 1: 27, 2: 2, Col3: 15, etc.). But I will instead simply point to Christ’s own prayer in John chapter 17, where our Lord prays for the unity of His Church. Jesus prays to the Father that His followers will be in unity, that they be one:



“I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word [notice He doesn’t say “through personal Bible reading”], so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.”



The unity and oneness that Jesus prays for is not found outside of the concept of a visible, united Church—the Catholic Church. Also, (and this is crucially important), one of the things that ensures the unity for which the Lord Jesus prays is authentic apostolic succession. Another, of course, is the papacy. But that’s another topic.



I had a recent conversation with a non-Catholic Christian who was contemplating conversion to Catholic Christianity. But an obstacle for her is the Catholic concept of “Church” and the importance placed upon apostolicity. In her opinion, apostolicity was and is completely unimportant and a “bona fide Christian church” by her definition means “one that fits the scriptural definition of a church. . . . Which means a called out group of baptized believers who are carrying out the Great Commission, and following Scripture.” In her view, one Christian church is “just as much a church as any other . . . I do not see apostolic succession as being necessary for a church to be a real Christian church. I know of a church in California where the pastor went around and knocked on doors and invited people to church at his home. Eventually as the group grew, they met in a tent. Now they have a lovely building and are one of the largest congregations in southern California. This is a true church, as they fit the Scriptural definition I have described above.” So first, subjectively, she defines what is “the scriptural definition” of what constitutes a Christian church. Then, just as subjectively, she decides what fits her model.



As already pointed out previously, there is no single “Scriptural definition of a church”. “Church” has differing Scriptural meanings, contained within different contexts within the Bible. One problem with the above definition, by saying “following Scripture” implies the premise, in fact the prerequisite, that Scripture preceded the Church. And that the Church thus “follows” Scripture, sort of like a blueprint. But factually and historically, that’s just not accurate. In fact, the reverse is actually true. The Church preceded the NT Scriptures. The Christian Church was born decades before the first line of NT Scripture was ever penned. So the Church can’t “follow” Scripture, strictly speaking.



Of course, nothing the authentic Church teaches can ever contradict the written Word of God, but that’s different than saying that a “bona fide church” must “follow Scripture”. Another reason why this definition of church can’t work is because there was no definitive canon of the NT Scriptures for about 350 years after Christ’s ascension. Yet the Church thrived. How can this be so if the Church is “following Scripture”? ...

 
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Skripper

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Here's the rest:

Yet another reason is that even after we had the New Testament canon of Scripture, after around the year 400, the local churches around the world did not unequivocally all possess a complete copy of “the Bible”. What the local churches did do, in order to be “bona fide churches”, was to adhere to authentic Sacred Tradition, as passed down from Christ and His Apostles, through the very early Magisterium of the Church (Acts 2:42; 1 Cor. 11: 2; 2 Thess. 2: 15).



One part of her definition was accurate, however: “carrying out the Great Commission”, if by “Great Commission” is meant what Jesus said in Matthew 28: 19-20: “Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”



During the course of conversation she repeatedly rejected the need for apostolic succession and therefore, necessarily, apostolic mandate and authority. Yet in the “Great Commission” in Matthew 28: 19-20 Jesus is speaking, specifically, to His original Apostles, to His infant “C” Church and not “independent” Christians (See also John 20: 21-23). Elsewhere in the NT Bible, which we’ll get to soon, the importance of authentic apostolic succession, from the original Apostles, is repeatedly emphasized. In fact, it is considered soimportant, by the Apostles themselves, that the very first “C”Church Council, in Jerusalem and depicted in Acts chapter 15, addresses this very issue.



Let’s examine briefly the Acts of the Apostles, chapter 15, and how it demonstrates the importance of apostolic succession and mandate. In Acts 15 we see the very first Church Council, held in Jerusalem. Why? Why did the Apostles gather back together? What did they feel was so important that they should all stop what they were doing and regroup in Jerusalem?



Most Christians are familiar with some of the particulars, namely that they had a council to settle the issue about whether or not Christian converts, most notably Gentiles, should be required to follow the Old Covenantal ceremonial laws, the Mosaic Law with its dietary restrictions, circumcision, Saturday Sabbath, strict rules on who you could marry, etc. But WHY did they find it necessary to get back together and promulgate a final, definitive, authoritative decision on this issue? Simple. Because there were those, even way back then, who mistakenly believed that apostolic mandate was unimportant. That mistakenly thought that apostolic succession didn’t matter. And just look at the chaos it caused, even way back then, in the early Church as depicted in the book of Acts. Those who believed this waystrayed, almost immediately,fromauthentic Christian doctrine.



Upon further examination of Acts 15 we see that what actually caused the problem was the exact sort of reasoning being advocated by our potential convert. Namely, a total disregard for apostolic mandate and succession. Let’s look at what the apostles themselves said in condemning this sort of thing.



You see, some folks over in Antioch, Cilicia and Syria had taken it upon themselves to start up their own little “churches”, without any apostolic mandate and without any apostolic succession or authority. In other words, they did exactly what our potential convert is saying is perfectly fine. But the apostles didn’t think it was fine. In fact, they thought that it was so grievous an offense against the Christian Faith that they called the very first Church Council to address it.



These “independent” Christians, over there in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia, were acting on their own, without proper authority. And in doing so they were distorting authentic Christian teachings. They were teaching false doctrines and upsetting people (verse 24). When the Apostles got wind of this they considered this such an enormous problem that they called the first recorded “C”Church council and selected authentic representatives, with a proper mandate from the Apostles themselves, to go to these cities and correct the very problem that our potential convert does not see as problematic today. Namely, “independent” Christians preaching in Christ’s name without proper authority and mandate from the apostles themselves or those duly and authentically commissioned by them (or, as in today’s case, without proper apostolic succession). Here’s what the Apostles had to say about it, in their own words. (All words in brackets are mine, as are all emphases).



“Then the apostles and presbyters [presbyters = “priests”, by the way], in agreement with the whole church [“C”Church sense of the word, as discussed and explained earlier], decided to choose representatives [authentic representatives, not “independents” acting on their own] and to send them to Antioch with St. Paul and Barnabas. [They thought it so important that they even sent St. Paul, himself an Apostle, though not one of the twelve]. The ones chosen were Judas, who was called Barsabbas, and Silas, leaders among the brothers. This is the letter delivered by them: ‘The apostles and the presbyters, your brothers, to the brothers in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia of Gentile origin: greetings. Since we have heard that some of our number [“some of our number”, so they were Christians—but acting “on their own”] who went out without any mandate from us have upset you with their teachings[because they had distorted authentic Christian doctrine] and disturbed your peace of mind, we have with one accord [there’s that unity again, also discussed earlier] decided to choose representatives and to send them to you along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, who have dedicated their lives to the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.’ ” (Acts 15: 22-26). The passage then goes on to explain what the authentic apostolic teaching is.



So those early Christians over in Antioch, Cilicia and Syria, acting withoutproper apostolic mandate, those Christians acting withoutapostolic authority, were, even in the very earliest times of the Christian Church, distorting Christian doctrine. So it’s not a new phenomenon. And it still happens, only worse, today. With all these “independent” and other Christians acting entirely on their own, just like we saw in the book of Acts, without proper apostolic mandate. Those Christians who, with no apostolic authority, go around starting up their own Christian “churches”. And just like back in the time of the book of Acts, they are still distorting Christian doctrine, even today.



The only men today who have proper apostolic mandate, who have proper apostolic authority, are those men who have received it through an unbroken chain of proper apostolic succession, in union with the pope. And that’s only within the Catholic Church, the one and only Church that can trace her apostolic lineage all the way back through the 2000 year history of the Christian Church, all the way back to the original apostles and indeed to Jesus Christ Himself. And that’s why apostolic succession does indeed matter very, very much.



There is further scriptural evidence and support for authentic apostolic succession. We see, regarding Judas in Acts 1: 20 that the office of apostle survives the man that fills it: “May another take his office”. And it is completed in Acts 1: 25-26, when Matthias succeeds Judas. That’s apostolic succession. And it matters. (For the OT parallel of this concept, see Isaiah 22: 15-22).



Then, later on, still in the book of Acts, look what we see the Apostles doing. We see Sts. Paul and Barnabas (Apostles, though not among the twelve) installing authentic presbyters in each local church:



“They appointed presbyters for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, commended them to the Lord in whom they had put their faith.” (Acts 14: 23) So they are ordaining and installing authentic priests in the local churches. Notice that Christian “lone rangers” and “independent” Christians are not“self-ordaining”. No. Rather, the apostles are doing it, St. Paul is doing it. That’s apostolic succession. That’s apostolic mandate and authority. And it matters, according to Scripture.



We see the same exact thing elsewhere in the Bible. Just look at 2 Timothy 2: 1-2. Again, we see the Apostle Paul ordaining not only Timothy, but also instructing him on the next two succeeding generations of apostolic succession: “You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.” St. Paul is telling Timothy to pick out certain, particular faithful men and entrust them to authentically pass on the teachings. That’s apostolic succession. And it matters, according to St. Paul. St. Paul is not at all practicing, advocating or teaching that “independent” Christians should go out and self-ordain themselves as “pastors”, rustle up some followers, pitch a tent, and have a “church”. NO. He is practicing, advocating and teaching authentic apostolic succession, something that Protestant Christian churches along with all the myriad different “independent” Christian churches do not possess.



We see St. Paul doing the exact same thing in his letter to Titus. Here he does with Titus exactly what we saw him do in Acts and what we saw him do with Timothy, namely, setting up churches with authentic apostolically mandated priests, not independents acting on their own authority to set up their own little “churches”. St. Paul tells Titus: “For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you, on condition that a man be blameless, married only once, with believing children who are not accused of licentiousness or rebellious.” (Titus 1: 5-6) St. Paul appointed (ordained) Titus and instructed Titus to appoint (ordain) others. Again, that’s apostolic succession for the churches, and it matters. We see it over and over again in Scripture. Apostolic succession is the proper “scriptural model” for the Church and for the churches. The only time we see the “independent” Christians acting on their own, without proper apostolic mandate, is that one time in Acts chapter 15 where it is resoundingly condemned by the Apostles. In fact, they thought it so serious of an offence against the true faith that they actually held the first Church council to try to get rid of it.



So, in summary, apostolic mandate and succession in the “C” Christian Church and in the local churches is the true and proper scriptural model of and for Christ’s Church. It is what was practiced, taught and advocated by Jesus and His Apostles. It mattered to them and it should matter to us. Thank God for Christ’s Catholic Church which, by the grace, guidance and protection of Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit, provides, proclaims and preserves authentic Christian teaching through the authentic apostolically mandated Christian Church. Praise God!
 
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lando

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oh ya'll i'm gonna have to quit. we are getting no where. obviously ya'll are a rock in catholism and i'm a rock in baptist doctrine. so let's just drop it. i've learned a lot about catholism and carly i finally did get my facts strait. thank you for your time i apperciate it. and if i have any more questions then i know where to come. keep serving the Lord, for that's all that matters. rock on.

in Him,
lando
 
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KennySe

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Peace to you, lando.

I have to comment on your last post. :)

lando said:
oh ya'll i'm gonna have to quit. we are getting no where. obviously ya'll are a rock in catholism and i'm a rock in baptist doctrine. so let's just drop it.

I must say that we did indeed "get somewhere". You asked questions and we provided answers, but moreso than that...

i've learned a lot about catholism and carly i finally did get my facts strait.

:)

So we did "get somewhere."

And as you also put in your post

thank you for your time i apperciate it. and if i have any more questions then i know where to come.

Thank you for your time also.

We're here for you.

Peace,
Kenny
 
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