differences between the JW's and Christadelphians

[The Gregorian]

But now you mentioned "brainwashed" I find it difficult to look at certain ways of study by th JW's, with their question and anwser system. This sometimes looks as a brainwashing method. Though I do agree that for certain people this can be a good method of studying. It fasciliates it to remember certain things.

As a JW, I understand what you're referring to. Sometimes questions are SO simplistic and rhetorical it seems like: "And WHOOOO does God love" "...meeeeee"

On the surface it's so painfully obvious that it could be viewed as brainwashing... but that's not the intent. I've been a tutor for a while, and am trying to go back to school to get into teaching. Since then, I've been able to pick up the strategy behind these questions. First off, some articles are simply written as a "beginner lecture." With messages as obvious as: "Did you know... that Jesus Christ died for our sake?!" OOOORLY?!

All of these painfully obvious questions have easy surface answers to encourage new people or children to speak up and be a part of the conversation discussion. However, they're intentionally left vague to encourage a more personalized response. There are FAR more bible references in each paragraph than are directly quoted, and the question usually correlates with these "extra" verses.

The intent is to show that... yes... there's an easy newby surface answer... however, if you treat the watchtower for what it is... as a study guide for the BIBLE... you start getting further from the easy answer that's made obvious by the paragraph... and you start going off into tangents. The question will lead you to vereses referenced, but not explained in the paragraph. This leads YOU to read these for yourself and find your own personal application.

Of course, some congregations unfortunately do the bare minimum... just read the article itself, and only suggest the most basic answer. This is the key thing I look for when I want to see the strength of the congregation I'm visiting. Do they treat these questions as something to which there is "a right answer they should read out of the paragraph word for word?" Or, do they see these questions as more of an open ended starting point for a deeper discussion?

It's rather impressive, when you look at it from that perspective, actually. Of course, not all articles can be profoundly deep like that. Most tend to be. It's sort of like any talk. I just moved to a new area, and some of the talks have been profound... In contrast, our circuit overseer visited this week... of the three talks he gave, I was tremendously unimpressed with all of them. He was definitely one of those who "looked for the right answer" and left it at that. All of the verses he cited were single verse snippets, with no mention of context or the intricacies of the original language... The only virtue I could see in him was "unquestioning faith." ... which is double-edged.

Faith is the second most important trait a person can have (behind love)... But, to stop "questioning" shows that you've stopped trying to learn... it shows that you're satisfied with how close you are to God. And, no one should EVER be satisfied with that! How can someone be close "enough?"

Inconceivable! (said with a lisp to reference the princess bride)

 

[2ducklow]

As a JW, I understand what you're referring to. Sometimes questions are SO simplistic and rhetorical it seems like: "And WHOOOO does God love" "...meeeeee"

On the surface it's so painfully obvious that it could be viewed as brainwashing... but that's not the intent. I've been a tutor for a while, and am trying to go back to school to get into teaching. Since then, I've been able to pick up the strategy behind these questions. First off, some articles are simply written as a "beginner lecture." With messages as obvious as: "Did you know... that Jesus Christ died for our sake?!" OOOORLY?!

All of these painfully obvious questions have easy surface answers to encourage new people or children to speak up and be a part of the conversation discussion. However, they're intentionally left vague to encourage a more personalized response. There are FAR more bible references in each paragraph than are directly quoted, and the question usually correlates with these "extra" verses.

Sounds like what people say when they have contradictions in their doctrine. you know like god is one, but the deeper truth (actually a contradiction) is that god is 3 persons. People who don't have contradictions in their doctrines don't say stuff like what you said.

You have mentioned that you feel we claim infallibility several times. I'm not sure why you think that. The Bible is the only thing infallible. We are regularly reminded that elders and our governing body are imperfect. I have personally met members of the governing body and they are so humble. They talk to everyone. You would never know they were so unless someone told you. Several times a year we receive "adjustments" to our beliefs--usually some minor change in how we understand a certain verse or some clarification on an application of a verse. The governing body admits that they feel their previous understanding was wrong and that they are constantly looking for areas that need improving. That requires humility. .

what you are saying equates to this

"My pastor gave me a minor change to my understanding of a verse."

IN other words the organization decides for you what any particular scriptures interpretation is. In other words you have to believe every single interpretation of scripture that they give you or you are out the door , correct? I don't believe that happens in any church, JW or catholic or whatever, all people do when faced with the threat of excommunication is to keep quiet about what they really think. You talk about thinking people, anyone who just accepts whatever someone tells them isn't a thinkng person.


Acts 17:10-11 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Beroea: who when they were come thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of the mind, examining the Scriptures daily, whether these things were so.


It appears to me that you have it backwards. IT appears to me that you receive the interpretation from headquarters with all readiness of the mind, examining what the watchtower says daily, whether scriptures were so.

 

[marcusampe]

...Sometimes questions are SO simplistic and rhetorical...
...could be viewed as brainwashing... but that's not the intent. I've been a tutor for a while, and am trying to go back to school to get into teaching. ... the strategy behind these questions. First off, some articles are simply written as a "beginner lecture." ...
All of these painfully obvious questions have easy surface answers to encourage new people or children to speak up and be a part of the conversation discussion.

As a retired teacher I know the system but also see the dangers in it. But as it can trigger youngsters to dare to give answers, which is a good thing.

... if you treat the watchtower for what it is... as a study guide for the BIBLE... you start getting further from the easy answer that's made obvious by the paragraph... and you start going off into tangents. The question will lead you to vereses referenced, but not explained in the paragraph. This leads YOU to read these for yourself and find your own personal application.

I do hope they stil can find time out of all the reading material offered by their organisation, to be able to search more thoroughly in the Bible.

... Of course, some congregations unfortunately do the bare minimum... just read the article itself, and only suggest the most basic answer.

And when those people in the congregation did just read or answered how and what was already written in the article this gives a poor impression to us visitors.

... This is the key thing I look for when I want to see the strength of the congregation I'm visiting. Do they treat these questions as something to which there is "a right answer they should read out of the paragraph word for word?" Or, do they see these questions as more of an open ended starting point for a deeper discussion?

Naturally I can understand that there should be a big difference with the open pbulic readings and the Bible study meetings.

... Faith is the second most important trait a person can have (behind love)... But, to stop "questioning" shows that you've stopped trying to learn... it shows that you're satisfied with how close you are to God. And, no one should EVER be satisfied with that! How can someone be close "enough?"

Inconceivable! (said with a lisp to reference the princess bride)

And every person should always question everything in front of him. We always should be aware that we are not to follow people or organisations but Jesus and even more Jehovah.

 

[marcusampe]

If we pay the penalty for our sins when we die then why did Jesus have to die? if we pay the penalty when we die the first death, then god can raise us cause our debt is paid and no need for jesus sacrifice. I assume you don't believe anyone goes to the lake of fire for their sins as I do.

By paying the penalty for our sins by dying, this would mean the end of our life, because after death is nothing any more, and shall we become dust.
the reason why Jesus had to die is very important.
First of all there had to be a final Lamb slaughtered for the remissions of sins. Jesus offered himself to come in the place of the first Adam. After Christ there is no need any more for sacrifices or offerings.
Secondly Jesus had to die first before he could be erected from the dead. His rising was necessary for us as an example to what can happen to all men.

Yes I do not believe in hell and purgatory. Those place are creations of artists and filosophers. The Lake of Fire or the hell is the place of death, a 'figurative place', and not an actual place with flames.

 

[marcusampe]

Most of those groups do not exist anymore. Ex-JW groups can hardly be called an offshoot. They are part of the churches of Christendom. Almost all of them are members of a mainstream church and/or join in with them. I do think that we are unique in our unity.

Luckilly a lot of them also found other non-Trinitarian organisations to affiliate with. The same for the non-trinitarian Baptists who had to find ways out since from the eighties the Church unions got more power and the Baptists became more and more Trinitarian and not leaving openings to other thinkers.

Some Ex-Jehovah's still consider themselves as a Witness for Jehovah, and others find that they are back with the roots, being taken up by the Bible Students or by the Russelites.

And would it not be able to think that the Jehovah Witness are a shism of the Bible Students or from the Russelites?

 

[marcusampe]

I used to go door to door as a Baptist growing up. So I know other groups have outreach programs. Usually they are inviting people to their church, not discussing the Bible. That's advertising. Some do discuss Bible topics, but when you see public preaching going on, what name first comes to your mind? JW are even in movies and tv shows we are so well known for our preaching work. Mt. 24:14 indicates that the organization that God uses in the last days would be characterized primarily by the preaching of the good news of the kingdom in all the earth.

Before I became a Cd I was a non-Trinitarian Baptist and as you say, when we went from door to door then it was more to get the members into our church = a sort of advertising what we did and inviting them to come and have a look ... more then the preaching itself.
But as a Cd we do talk more about the Kingdom of God and try more to offer the Good News, not so much to try to bring them into our church ... no just to get them to think and even more important to get them to take up the Bible and to start reading in it.

 

[The Gregorian]

I do hope they stil can find time out of all the reading material offered by their organisation, to be able to search more thoroughly in the Bible.

Indeed. The material is NOT designed to replace the bible... they're supposed to be study guides. That's why virtually EVERY paragraph you see will make statements and tell you to look it up in the bible for yourself (and hopefully the context). If, in your personal study, you're reading a study guide more than the material in question, you're doing it wrong. (I.e. The "Isaiah book" is only designed to point out interesting things about the book of Isaiah in the bible, so that when you read it, you'll have some more perspective. It's NOT supposed to be a substitute for reading it)

And when those people in the congregation did just read or answered how and what was already written in the article this gives a poor impression to us visitors.

Indeed. And it's rather painful to some of us as well... trust me. It's fine in some cases, like you said, empowering children to ask questions/make comments is a scary thing... Even if their comment isn't all that substantive, the fact that a 5 year old can muster the nerve to speak about religion in front of 100-200 people is a HUGE step... most people are uncomfortable talking religion with ONE other person... or saying ANYTHING in front of a group of so many peers. ... But, even though this first step is impressive, it's still preferable to add substance and unique thought to the comment when you're able.

 

[steve4.truth]

Before I became a Cd I was a non-Trinitarian Baptist and as you say, when we went from door to door then it was more to get the members into our church = a sort of advertising what we did and inviting them to come and have a look ... more then the preaching itself.
But as a Cd we do talk more about the Kingdom of God and try more to offer the Good News, not so much to try to bring them into our church ... no just to get them to think and even more important to get them to take up the Bible and to start reading in it.

Sorry I was gone so long. Work got super busy. Hey, that's very commendable. Preaching the kingdom is so important. that is also very good that you try to get people into their Bibles. My family and I are trying to read the bible thru in a year (probably will take more like 2 years). there is no substitute for the bible itself. The more people that open it up and actually do what they read will benefit themselves tremendously!! Keep up the good work!

 

[marcusampe]

the fact that a 5 year old can muster the nerve to speak about religion in front of 100-200 people is a HUGE step... most people are uncomfortable talking religion with ONE other person... or saying ANYTHING in front of a group of so many peers. ... But, even though this first step is impressive, it's still preferable to add substance and unique thought to the comment when you're able.

It is good that youngsters do get a chance to speek in front of many. Lots of adults in other denominations should learn from that.

Each Christian should be more daring to speak about his belief at work and his own environment.

 

[steve4.truth]

In our Ministry School book, it makes these suggestions for commenting:
• If called on first, give a simple, direct answer to the question
• To add to the discussion, (1) show how a cited scripture bears on the point under consideration, (2) mention how the matter affects our lives, (3) explain how the information can be used, or (4) relate a brief experience that highlights a key point
• Listen carefully to comments given so that you will know how to build on what has been said
• Try to comment in your own words

As you can see, we are encouraged to think. Usually the first comment is by a child or newbie or someone very shy. then the mature ones will add deeper thoughts. The whole point is to give us practice at expressing our faith. that is why we are able to talk to people in public.
Any who are critical of our comments should remember Jesus' words--"with whatever judgment you are judging, you will be judged" Mt. 7:2 Walk into any church. How many people express spiritual thoughts? Do the children? newbies? I feel that many forget that we are just people. Some of us have phobias of public speaking. Some of us flunked out of school. We are just trying to do our best.

 

[marcusampe]

My family and I are trying to read the bible thru in a year (probably will take more like 2 years). there is no substitute for the bible itself.

There are always different duties which encircle us, but you shall find it great when you shall be able to feel the compensation for the time you made free for reading the Bible.
Even when it takes two years to get through a complete reading of the 66 books.
The best thing you can do after you finished one bible Translation is to take an other after that.
(With my son I also did one translation after the other. This gives also a more open mind to the different translations, when you get to know them better.)

 

[steve4.truth]

what you are saying equates to this

"My pastor gave me a minor change to my understanding of a verse."

IN other words the organization decides for you what any particular scriptures interpretation is. In other words you have to believe every single interpretation of scripture that they give you or you are out the door , correct? I don't believe that happens in any church, JW or catholic or whatever, all people do when faced with the threat of excommunication is to keep quiet about what they really think. You talk about thinking people, anyone who just accepts whatever someone tells them isn't a thinkng person.


Acts 17:10-11 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Beroea: who when they were come thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of the mind, examining the Scriptures daily, whether these things were so.


It appears to me that you have it backwards. IT appears to me that you receive the interpretation from headquarters with all readiness of the mind, examining what the watchtower says daily, whether scriptures were so.

I can understand why you feel that way. I used to feel that way too. When I met the witnesses, I was very critical of them too. I was a graduate from Bible college and as a Baptist missionary, I had a lot of time for Bible reading. I often read whole books of the Bible in one sitting. but I was surprised how well these ladies explained the Bible to my wife and I. One of them didn't even finish high school, and the other was a local islander. The education system there is not as modern--especially in reading comprehension. Yet these 2 ladies were teaching me things about verses I had read many times. Even so, after spending months debating and investigating, I found that I already agreed with most of what they were saying, but I read the whole new testament thru in about 2 weeks to see if I could find a verse that contradicted what they were saying. Even today, when those adjustments come, I pull out my Bible and re-read the context. Sometimes I understand, sometimes I don't. But the bottom line is that I have learned so many things from those brothers. If you ever read our literature, you can't help but notice multiple Bible references in each paragraph. I've read hundreds of books from popular preachers and evangelists when I was in bible college, and they rarely quote scriptures. If the watchtower is above the Bible as you claim we believe, why is it they don't say anything without backing it up in the Bible? Maybe I could ask you, does your pastor ever change his understanding of a verse? If you see the sense in it and adjust your own understanding, does that make you brainwashed? Follow any popular preacher today. they adjust their understanding all the time. Out teacher is the brothers who write the watchtower. fallible, yes, but very good teachers. and No, we don't have to believe every single interpretation or we are out the door--very incorrect. It is statistically impossible to agree with everything anyone else says. Those who hate us spread that lie, but I can't think of one elder who doesn't have some minor disagrement with something. We are thinking people. But we are not like many churches where independence is encouraged. We are encouraged to be unified and overlook petty differences instead of drawing attention to ourself with "look what I just figured out all by myself" attitude.

 

[steve4.truth]

There are always different duties which encircle us, but you shall find it great when you shall be able to feel the compensation for the time you made free for reading the Bible.
Even when it takes two years to get through a complete reading of the 66 books.
The best thing you can do after you finished one bible Translation is to take an other after that.
(With my son I also did one translation after the other. This gives also a more open mind to the different translations, when you get to know them better.)

good suggestion. I have read the Bible through many times in different translations, but my children have only read through one time. We toggle between the NWT and the NIV right now, but maybe next year we should try a new translation. Different things pop out in different translations that you don't notice if you read only one. thanx

 

[marcusampe]

As you can see, we are encouraged to think. Usually the first comment is by a child or newbie or someone very shy. then the mature ones will add deeper thoughts. The whole point is to give us practice at expressing our faith. that is why we are able to talk to people in public. ... Some of us have phobias of public speaking. Some of us flunked out of school. We are just trying to do our best.

It is a good thing that youngsters and those with lesser experience or knwoledge of the Bible can have their say in an environment where they feel at ease to say something. Daring to speak in such an acepting community shall give them more assurance to dare to speak in front of strangers at the doors.
It is good that they can receive encouragement that way.

 

[marcusampe]

steve4.truth wrote: "I've read hundreds of books from popular preachers and evangelists when I was in bible college, and they rarely quote scriptures. "
That is something I really appreciate in their literature but also on forums. Often you find quates by others from theological and philosopical books but not so much from the Bible itself, while that should be the guide. Also for theaology at Universities we can notice that more interest is given in worldly books then what is translated from the bookroles - the Holy scriptures themself.

 

[2ducklow]

I can understand why you feel that way. I used to feel that way too. When I met the witnesses, I was very critical of them too. I was a graduate from Bible college and as a Baptist missionary, I had a lot of time for Bible reading. I often read whole books of the Bible in one sitting. but I was surprised how well these ladies explained the Bible to my wife and I. One of them didn't even finish high school, and the other was a local islander. The education system there is not as modern--especially in reading comprehension. Yet these 2 ladies were teaching me things about verses I had read many times. Even so, after spending months debating and investigating, I found that I already agreed with most of what they were saying, but I read the whole new testament thru in about 2 weeks to see if I could find a verse that contradicted what they were saying. Even today, when those adjustments come, I pull out my Bible and re-read the context. Sometimes I understand, sometimes I don't. But the bottom line is that I have learned so many things from those brothers. If you ever read our literature, you can't help but notice multiple Bible references in each paragraph. I've read hundreds of books from popular preachers and evangelists when I was in bible college, and they rarely quote scriptures. If the watchtower is above the Bible as you claim we believe, why is it they don't say anything without backing it up in the Bible?

It appears that way to me, I'm sure it doesn't to you. The way it appears to me is that you guys try and twist scripture to fit with the watchtowers opinion, thus placing the watchtower above scripture. But then all christians do that to some extent and perhaps you are no different on that score than most all christians. I don't agree with your opinon of watchtower interpretations of scripture, i find many of their interpretations a twisting of scritpure. Case in point, this is atopic i debated with a Jw many years ago and I remember his reply.

1 pet. 1.20 states that Jesus was foreknown, which would preclude him existing before he existed, because you can't foreknow someone who exists you can only foreknow someone who doesn't exist.
the JW i debatedwith stated that it means that WHAT Jesus WOULD DO WAS foreknown ABOUT. That in my opinon is twisting scripture that says 'foreknow' to "what he did was foreknown about" and it is twisted to conform to JW doctrine. If foreknow means "whaT he did was foreknown about", then what would "what he did was foreknow about" mean? foreknow? to say that foreknow means "what he did was foreknown about:" would mean that there is no way in Greek to say "foreknown."

Maybe I could ask you, does your pastor ever change his understanding

of a verse? If you see the sense in it and adjust your own understanding, does that make you brainwashed?

my pastor has changed his mind about some things, he also encouraghes us not to just accept what he says but to check it out with scriptrue. overwhelmingly , but not totally , i agrree with his understanding of scritprues.. there have been times when I was absolutely positive he was wrong ,but checking it out with scriptrues over and over i found him to be correct .
[qutoe=steve]

Follow any popular preacher today. they adjust their understanding all the time. Out teacher is the brothers who write the watchtower. fallible, yes, but very good teachers. and No, we don't have to believe every single interpretation or we are out the door--very incorrect. [/quote] I'm sorry but I don't beleive you on this. from what I've read and heard , it appears to me if you disagree with anything the watchtower puts out they gang up on you and if you don't change your mind they find a way to kick you out.

It is statistically impossible to agree with everything anyone else says. Those who hate us spread that lie, but I can't think of one elder who doesn't have some minor disagrement with something. We are thinking people. But we are not like many churches where independence is encouraged. We are encouraged to be unified and overlook petty differences instead of drawing attention to ourself with "look what I just figured out all by myself" attitude.

I don't hate JW's, I respect their studiousness, their dedication. A person can have a negative opinion abouit an organisation without hating them.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

unless I am mistaken Christadelphians deny that Satan is a fallen Angel, in fact Satan is one's sin nature, thus Jesus was confronting his sin nature in the wilderness.