differences between the JW's and Christadelphians

[wlajoie74]

I'm looking for differences and similarities in what the JW's teach and what christadelphians teach. If you know of any could you please make them known. Thanks!

 

[k2svpete]

This is a basic run-down of the beliefs of Christidelphians.


What Christadelphians Believe

The Christadelphians, "Brothers and Sisters in Christ", are a body of Bible believing people, who aim to live by faith in Jesus Christ, according to the teaching of his followers from the first century AD, finding their instruction in a wholly inspired Bible. Central to Christadelphian belief is that Christ will one day return to the Earth to establish the Kingdom of God and grant eternal life to his people - those who have tried to follow him and God.
What Christadelphians Believe gives an introduction to each of the key areas of Christadelphian belief. Although you may disagree with some of the points made here you will see that all Christadelphian beliefs are firmly rooted in the Bible.
The fundamental Christadelphian beliefs are:

1. The Bible is God's word and the only message from him. It is without error, except for copying and translation errors. (2 Timothy 3:16, Hebrews 1:1. See also: The Bible, Why I Believe the Bible, and Alleged Biblical Errors.)
2. There is only one God - the Father. The Holy Spirit is God's power. (John 17:3, Luke 1:35, Deuteronomy 6:4. See also God, Jesus and the Crucifixion, and The Trinity.)
3. Jesus is the Son of God, and also the son of a human being, his mother Mary, so making him Son of Man. Jesus was tempted just like us because of this. But Jesus was not just a great man, he was the Son of the Most High God, and was perfect. (Luke 1:30-31, John 3:18.See also God, Jesus and the Crucifixion, and The Trinity)
4. Man is mortal, having no existence when dead. (Psalm 6:5, Isaiah 38:18, Acts 2:29,34)
5. By living a sinless life, ending with his sacrificial death by crucifixion, Jesus has opened the way of salvation from death. (Hebrews 4:15, 1 Corinthians 5:7, 1 Corinthians15: 20-23, Galatians 3:27-29)
6. Belief and baptism are essential steps to salvation. (Mark 16:16. See also Baptism and Salvation.)
7. God raised Jesus from death. Jesus is currently in Heaven, on God's right hand. He will one day return. (Acts 10:40, Romans 8:34, Acts 1:11)
8. When Jesus returns, he will raise his "sleeping" followers from death and grant immortality to the faithful who have tried to live by God's precepts. (1 Corinthians 15:20-22)
9. His followers will help him to rule, bringing justice, righteousness and peace to the whole world - the Kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 15:23-26)

Now a couple of basic differences are as follows -

JWs assert that Jesus returned invisibly in 1914 - Christadelphians do not. (Point 7)

JWs assert that the prophecies surrounding the Jewish people in Isiah, Jeremiah & Ezekiel actually refer to the Watchtower organization through spiritualising these verses, rather than a literal reading. Particularly Is 43:10.

There are contradictory teachings to be found from early JW doctrine and later ones regarding the restoration of Israel and the Jewish people physically. Christadelphian doctrine has not changed on the issue and defers to a literal reading of the scriptures in question.

JWs believe that the 144 000 of Rev 7:4 is a literal 144K people that applies to the JW hierarchy from 1914. Christadelphians understand the 144k to be sealed out of the tribes of Israel and be a symbolic, not literal number, in keeping with the prelude to Rev, citing the contents being symolic of things to come. The 144k being the first fruits of the faithful (Rev 14:4, James 1:18 & 1 Cor 15:22-3). Further JWs believe that members of the 144k are resurrected at the time of death straight to heaven. Christadelphians believe that all sleep until the resurrection and reign with Christ on Earth in God's Kingdom.

JWs believe that Christ's return will only be noticed by those who see him with eyes of discernment, that this happened in 1914 and that Jesus will never, literally, set foot on the earth. Christadelphians believe that Jesus will return literally and visibly to the earth as stated in Zech 14:4, Acts 1:10-11, Zech 12:10; 13:6 and Rev 1:7 are some passages.

JWs believe that blood transfusions are forbidden by scripture. Gen 9:4 is cited as the supporting evidence along with Lev 3:17. These verses were administered under the law and applicable to the Jews living under the law. This was not binding upon all nations and indeed others were free to partake of non 'kosher' meat - Deut 14:21. An inconsistency on this point is when one contrasts blood transfusions, which are not permitted, with innoculations that are. Innoculations are contained in a serum derived from blood as well as other treatments that are derived from blood products.

There are some of the basics to get the ball rolling. Note that this is merely an exercise in contrasting beliefs, not a full blown discussion on the merits of each position.

 

[wlajoie74]

Okay, do you believe that belief and baptism are all you need. In other words once saved always saved, or do you believe there are works involved in the equation? Do you believe that the only reward there is is the earthly ressurection or is there a heavenly reward as well?(JW's believe in a ruling class of 144000. do you have a similar belief?) Since the bible is without error except in translation does your church have programs to teach greek and hebrew? What arre your beliefs on the end times? What is the eternal fate of those who refuse to believe even in the end after the second coming? Do you believe the antichrist is an actual person or just a broad term to represent opposers of christ. Sorry just have a lot of questions. This is just the tip of the iceburg.lol. I'll stop there for now.

 

[k2svpete]

Okay, do you believe that belief and baptism are all you need. In other words once saved always saved, or do you believe there are works involved in the equation?

Not so much a case of once saved, always saved, but predestination, in that his sheep hear his voice. If one is not part of the elect, then you do not truely respond to the gospel. Works do not enter into the equation for we are told in Romans that we are saved by grace through faith lest any man should boast.

Do you believe that the only reward there is is the earthly ressurection or is there a heavenly reward as well?(JW's believe in a ruling class of 144000. do you have a similar belief?)

The gospel was the teaching of the establishment of God's kingdom on earth, with Jesus as the ruler of this kingdom to the glory of God. The reward is resurrection to eternal life & the opportunity to spend that time with Jesus and in worship to God. No ruling class but a distinction between the first fruits and the multitude that follows.

Since the bible is without error except in translation does your church have programs to teach greek and hebrew?

One doesn't have to be an expert yourself, the ability to study and research using tools provided by those that are are more important, although people are free to learn Greek and Hebrew if they wish.

What arre your beliefs on the end times?

That will vary upon each person's level of understanding. Personally, I believe we are very near the end of the prophecies of Revelation with much having been fulfilled. I certainly do not profess to have a full understanding of everything though.

What is the eternal fate of those who refuse to believe even in the end after the second coming?

They will live out their allocated time and then be buried in the grave, to return to dust once they have died.

Do you believe the antichrist is an actual person or just a broad term to represent opposers of christ.

Anti-Christ does not refer to any one person but to organisations or systems that are set up to exclude Christ from his rightful place in the order of things. It equally applies to attempts to replace Christ with another person, or position, declaring that they have authority to do things that rest with Christ alone.

 

[wlajoie74]

Not so much a case of once saved, always saved, but predestination, in that his sheep hear his voice. If one is not part of the elect, then you do not truely respond to the gospel. Works do not enter into the equation for we are told in Romans that we are saved by grace through faith lest any man should boast.

So you believe certain people are chosen, or called, to be christians and others aren't?

The gospel was the teaching of the establishment of God's kingdom on earth, with Jesus as the ruler of this kingdom to the glory of God. The reward is resurrection to eternal life & the opportunity to spend that time with Jesus and in worship to God. No ruling class but a distinction between the first fruits and the multitude that follows.

Where is exactly do you draw that line. Which are the first fruits and what is the multitude that follows?

One doesn't have to be an expert yourself, the ability to study and research using tools provided by those that are are more important, although people are free to learn Greek and Hebrew if they wish.

What does this mean, "using tools provided by those more important"? What are these tools and who is more important and why?

That will vary upon each person's level of understanding. Personally, I believe we are very near the end of the prophecies of Revelation with much having been fulfilled. I certainly do not profess to have a full understanding of everything though.

So are you saying that you believe that the spirit works stronger in some compared to others?

They will live out their allocated time and then be buried in the grave, to return to dust once they have died.

Good

Anti-Christ does not refer to any one person but to organisations or systems that are set up to exclude Christ from his rightful place in the order of things. It equally applies to attempts to replace Christ with another person, or position, declaring that they have authority to do things that rest with Christ alone.

good

 

[wlajoie74]

sorry didnt seperate the quotes right but I think you get the point if not let me know and Ill change it.

 

[wlajoie74]

I'm not sure what my conclusion is about the whole blood thing. However these scriptures were not from the old testaments but instructions in the NT for gentiles. Acts 15:20
Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
Acts 15:29
You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.
Acts 21:25
As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality."
What do you have to say on these scriptures?

 

[k2svpete]

Take them in context, people used to drink blood as they understood that the life is in the blood, therefore they would receive whatever strength existed in the blood of what they were drinking. Use of blood products for the preservation of life is a very different kettle of fish.

 

[k2svpete]

So you believe certain people are chosen, or called, to be christians and others aren't?

Yes

Where is exactly do you draw that line. Which are the first fruits and what is the multitude that follows?

The first-fruits would be those who believed through faith, people such as Moses, Abraham etc. The multitude would be those of us who have come to Christ after his death via the spreading of the gospel by the apostles.

What does this mean, "using tools provided by those more important"? What are these tools and who is more important and why?

Simply knowing how to use texts like a concordance, septugiant etc. rather than having your own Greek & Hebrew texts, trying to duplicate study that has already been done by people much more proficent and well studied than we are. This is distincly different from putting aside scripture and leaning on commentaries or minister as your sole means of understanding scripture.

So are you saying that you believe that the spirit works stronger in some compared to others?

Each recieves gifts according to their talents, not all of us recieve the same level of understanding. Naturally, the amount of study people do on the topic varies and this will have a significant bearing on their level of understanding.

 

[wlajoie74]

Okay, so so far the only questions I have on what we have covered so far are on this people who are more important thing. Is this an actual class within your church? Or is it just students who have a deeper knowledge of the bible? Why are they more important?

 

[wlajoie74]

Take them in context, people used to drink blood as they understood that the life is in the blood, therefore they would receive whatever strength existed in the blood of what they were drinking. Use of blood products for the preservation of life is a very different kettle of fish.

Pretty much the way I feel too. However there is still doubt left in the back of my head. Mostly because he did not say do not drink blood. He said abstain from blood completely. I guess I will make that decision if I'm ever forced to do so.

 

[k2svpete]

Look at those comments in context, abstaining from things at that time referred to not partaking of something. Transfusions etc. were far from people's minds as they were to to come about over a thousand years down the track.

Regarding your other question, there is no class. Chrisadelphians don't have a pastoral structure either, they are small groups where all are invited to present teaching and discuss with each other, as things were done in the early church. This class business is not something to concern ourselves over for it is God with Jesus that knows who the first-fruit are, it is something beyond our influence.

 

[wlajoie74]

Look at those comments in context, abstaining from things at that time referred to not partaking of something. Transfusions etc. were far from people's minds as they were to to come about over a thousand years down the track.

Regarding your other question, there is no class. Chrisadelphians don't have a pastoral structure either, they are small groups where all are invited to present teaching and discuss with each other, as things were done in the early church. This class business is not something to concern ourselves over for it is God with Jesus that knows who the first-fruit are, it is something beyond our influence.

Yes I know the context. The problem that I have personally is that blood is looked at in a sacred way throughout the bible. Like I said I'm not sure what my stance is on this. I don't really think either side is wrong. It's just a decision I'll have to make if it ever arises.

Now to the next one. Thanks for clarifying. I agree. I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page.

 

[k2svpete]

I believe that everyone has some mix of truth and error, just that the proportions change a bit. Also key is giving ourselves over to scripture as the ultimate authority for doctrine and being open to listening to other viewpoints and discussing the relative merits, again in the light of scripture (in context).

I know that sometimes I can be a bit short but I am passionate about people studying the scriptures and using the brain that God gave us when it comes to testing doctrines. I'm working on the patience bit, it is definitely a work in progress.

 

[wlajoie74]

Look at those comments in context, abstaining from things at that time referred to not partaking of something. Transfusions etc. were far from people's minds as they were to to come about over a thousand years down the track.

Regarding your other question, there is no class. Chrisadelphians don't have a pastoral structure either, they are small groups where all are invited to present teaching and discuss with each other, as things were done in the early church. This class business is not something to concern ourselves over for it is God with Jesus that knows who the first-fruit are, it is something beyond our influence.

You say you do things in your church as they did in the early church. Yet Paul gives specific instruction to Timothy on how the church should be run in 1 Timothy. In particular check out 1Timothy 3. It is made quite clear that there should be superattendents(ie elders, bihops) and attendents(ie deacons,ministerial servants) in his instruction on how to conduct ourselves in Gods house. I think it is pretty clear that christians should have pastoral(or sheperd) figures in Gods house. So how can you claim to be as the early church and have no "pastoral structure"?

 

[k2svpete]

I Timothy 3 refers to qualifying characteristics to those who wish to have a position of distinction within the church. It is important to note that these people were concerned with the daily runnings of things, not the formalised structure that we see today.

It would be that an elder (somone who has come to a position of understanding) would oversee a new church to ensure that the studies of the group were in accordance with scripture and to look after details such as having a place to meet etc. Largely administrative functions if you will.

So, within the Christadelphians there are people who are elders within ecclesia and there are small boards to administer the group, no one person is set up as the pastor/minister etc.

 

[wlajoie74]

I Timothy 3 refers to qualifying characteristics to those who wish to have a position of distinction within the church. It is important to note that these people were concerned with the daily runnings of things, not the formalised structure that we see today.

It would be that an elder (somone who has come to a position of understanding) would oversee a new church to ensure that the studies of the group were in accordance with scripture and to look after details such as having a place to meet etc. Largely administrative functions if you will.

So, within the Christadelphians there are people who are elders within ecclesia and there are small boards to administer the group, no one person is set up as the pastor/minister etc.

got ya

 

[Dez the Christadelphian]

Cool, mind if I ask a few?

Can individuals read & understand the Bible alone, or do they need an organization and it's publications to do so?

Do you sell publications or give them freely?

(Im not trying to pick a fight here) Why do Jw's use 'Jehova' knowing full well it is a corruption of Gods true name YHWH, And LORD. Doesn't that send the wrong message?

 

[wlajoie74]

Cool, mind if I ask a few?

Can individuals read & understand the Bible alone, or do they need an organization and it's publications to do so?

Do you sell publications or give them freely?

(Im not trying to pick a fight here) Why do Jw's use 'Jehova' knowing full well it is a corruption of Gods true name YHWH, And LORD. Doesn't that send the wrong message?

I'm not a JW but as far as I know the answer to the first question has changed to a person can understand the bible without the Watchtower but they do not advise it. I could be wrong.
Last I heard they don't charge for their publications. They stopped doing that fifteen or so years ago.
Witnesses say that using Jehovah is just the english translation of YHWH. No different than saying Jesus instead of Yeshua.

 

[steve4.truth]

I'm not a JW but as far as I know the answer to the first question has changed to a person can understand the bible without the Watchtower but they do not advise it. I could be wrong.
Last I heard they don't charge for their publications. They stopped doing that fifteen or so years ago.
Witnesses say that using Jehovah is just the english translation of YHWH. No different than saying Jesus instead of Yeshua.

I am a witness for Jehovah, and you answered those questions well--especially about the name of God. A little clarification on the watchtower: Every religion has their commentaries. that's what the watchtower is. It is not inspired and the authors are humble enough to regularly correct mistaken views of the previous generations. The difference would be the unity among all the witnesses in the world (235 different countries). In other religions, anyone who wants to can make a commentary and it will be sold for a lot of money. You end up with hundreds of different opinions among the commentators. With us, the group of older men who "take the lead among us" (heb.13:17) get together and pray for understanding of whatever topic they are considering. Then based on their studies together (which can last for years before they are satisfied with their conclusion) they publish their joint understanding of what the Bible means on that subject. There's nothing mystical about it--no revelations or voice out of heaven. It's just a lot more unified and we know that it's not just the opinion of one man's brainstorm, so we take it more seriously.
In contrast, my understanding of Christadelphians is that there are many different groups or divisions among their ranks. Another obvious difference is that JWs obey Jesus words at Mt. 28:19,20 to make disciples of people of all nations. It's hard work and we don't enjoy the abuse we get, but Jesus is providing eternal life for us and freedom from the destructive habits that used to rule our life, so I'd say a little reproach is worth it Besides, He knows how we feel--he took much more abuse.
I find it interesting that the beliefs of these 2 groups are so similar! Jesus taught love for all people and respect to those of other belief systems (samaritans in his day were hated, yet he dignified them by making the good samaritan the "good guy" in that story). We all can learn from that, huh?