Differences between Lutheran and Episcopal

[localfizz]

I've attended church at both and have to say I do really like both of them. I'm still learning about both, but I would like to know differences in any beliefs between the two.I decided to post this here because I have more liberal leanings. I also have this posted on the Anglican section, but as advised I'm also posting here to get other perspectives.

 

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

Well, a large difference is around ordination and the clergy. The Lutheran church does not believe in the concepts of Apostolic Succession (Laying on of hands from Bishop to Bishop all the way back to the Apostles makes a valid ordination). It sounds cool, the ELCA has accepted the practice in its communion agreement on the basis of adiaphora (things neither commanded nor forbidden) but does not as the Episcopal church does, believe that is necessary for ordination. AS (as it is often abbreviated in this forum) presupposes a notion that the hierarchy is the church, a top down approach, without which there then would be no church. It causes one to trust in the Apostolic line more than the power of God's Word and the Holy Spirit in making and preserving the church. And it is usually accompanied by a sense of ontological change in the person ordained, something Lutherans do not embrace.

Historically the Episcopal church has had more of a leaning towards the Spiritual presence in the Eucharist. Although in the modern church this is a bit different. Many actually teach closer towards real presence similar to Lutherans, but their theological documents of old do not reflect this. The Episcopal church has been built traditionally on the hierarchy (AS), the 39 Articles, and common worship as their unifying factors. The Lutheran church has an entire book of confessions regarding doctrine the Book of Concord
Welcome to the Book of Concord
And while the ELCA for example has Bishops it is the believers of God gathered around word an sacrament that make the church, a more bottom up approach. One that can occur at any time anywhere by the power of God.
Foundational to Lutheran doctrine is proclamation. Proclamation in Word and Sacrament is seen as the central acts of the church and means of grace. While other bodies often may to some extent agree with this, no church holds this truth more central than Lutheranism, especially around preaching. Lutheran theology is built around the central article of justification by faith alone.

 

[localfizz]

Thanks for the thorough reply. Although the services (that i went to) were similar, from what you say, it sounds like my beliefs would coincide more with Lutheran beliefs/practices rather than Episcopal. It's those details that are important to me.

 

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

You will also likely find much more diversity in worship in the Lutheran Church. The Episcopal is much more connected to the liturgy than the Lutheran Church and more more strict about following it. Though the Lutheran church has been historically liturgical, American Protestantism has made it often a much more low liturgy and Lutheran theology technically possesses a much more "freedom of worship" concept so long as it is centered in Word and Sacrament, which means church can be as liturgical as they wish, which today, regrettably (from where I'm standing) they often choose not to be as liturgical.

 

[AngCath]

Localfizz, I am a former Episcopalian. Doulos has pretty much said what I'd say to lay out some basic differences. Rather than overwhelm with the differences I've seen/known, I thought I'd just let you know I have seen, lived, and prayed as both a Lutheran and an Episcopalian and will happily answer any specific questions you may have in the future.

 

[Kalevalatar]

A side note here:

Doulos_tou_kuriou refers to the American/US Lutheran churches when talking about "the Lutheran church". The European Lutheran churches -- the Evangelical-Lutheran Churches of Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Iceland, Lithuania, Norway, and Sweden -- have never stopped believing in the Apostolic Succession, signified in the ordination/consecration of a bishop, and the episcope, as a visible sign expressing and serving the Church's unity and continuity as the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

In the Lutheran diversity in worship, my Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland is squarely in the traditional/"high church" end of the spectrum. Our liturgy follows the 16th century Mass, no improvisations -- not even for the Metal Mass.

 

[localfizz]

The Lutheran churches I've attended were liturgical. I prefer that probably because it's what I'm used to.

Metal mass? Like heavy metal? If that's the case, I need to visit Finland

 

[Kalevalatar]

The Lutheran churches I've attended were liturgical. I prefer that probably because it's what I'm used to.

Metal mass? Like heavy metal? If that's the case, I need to visit Finland

Better start putting pennies aside for the trip, then! Finland is the heaviest country on earth, probably.

Metal Mass

 

[Adam Warlock]

Very interesting thread!

 

[AngCath]

A side note here:

Doulos_tou_kuriou refers to the American/US Lutheran churches when talking about "the Lutheran church". The European Lutheran churches -- the Evangelical-Lutheran Churches of Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Iceland, Lithuania, Norway, and Sweden -- have never stopped believing in the Apostolic Succession, signified in the ordination/consecration of a bishop, and the episcope, as a visible sign expressing and serving the Church's unity and continuity as the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

In the Lutheran diversity in worship, my Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland is squarely in the traditional/"high church" end of the spectrum. Our liturgy follows the 16th century Mass, no improvisations -- not even for the Metal Mass.

Just don't go thinking you all in Scandinavia have a monopoly on high liturgical worship!

 

[Bryne]

Better start putting pennies aside for the trip, then! Finland is the heaviest country on earth, probably.

Metal Mass

I would love to attend that mass. \m/

 

[Kalevalatar]

Just don't go thinking you all in Scandinavia have a monopoly on high liturgical worship!

No, really? Then I only have one question for you: well, how high can you go then?

 

[AngCath]

I really don't want to brag

 

[Basil the Great]

If the mainline denominations continue to decline in membership, then I believe that a merger between the Episcopal Church and the ELCA will probably happen by perhaps 2050 or 2075 at the latest.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

If the mainline denominations continue to decline in membership, then I believe that a merger between the Episcopal Church and the ELCA will probably happen by perhaps 2050 or 2075 at the latest.

Some parishes in the US are apparently heading that way already. Last Sunday, I visited a church with a dual affiliation. It describes itself on its website as "emerging Anglo-Catholic", and it's under the supervision of both an Episcopal (TEC) bishop and a Lutheran (ELCA) bishop. It seemed good so far. I'll visit some more and if all works out, I might make it my new home church.

 

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

If the mainline denominations continue to decline in membership, then I believe that a merger between the Episcopal Church and the ELCA will probably happen by perhaps 2050 or 2075 at the latest.

Sadly, most estimates of decline suggest the ELCA at its current trend will not exist by 2050. That said, I'm unsure if it will be complete mergers or if just a more active use of full communion agreement would be the answer. I think the ELCA has many churches that would not theologically embrace a full merger with the Episcopal church and I think the ECUSA is too liturgical to fully embrace a merger with the ELCA which is all over the place worship wise, and is heading in general away from strict liturgy.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

Metal mass in Finland sounds really cool!

There are some parishes (well, at least one) that are both Episcopal and Lutheran (TEC & ELCA affiliations). My new church is the one I know about. I've only been there a month or so, but I like it a lot so far. It's pretty "high church" (liturgical) but in a hip way. It's liberalish, but still orthodox.

 

[black coffee]

izzdari, are you referring to Church of the Apostles in Seattle?

Doulous, I appriciate your post on AS, as a Roman who became Anglican the issue of AS has always been one of the factors that has kept me in an AS church. BUT, I never thought of it in regards to limiting God's power. My uncle is a former LCMS priest and had explained this to many times, but it never made sense until now.

I guess what is attractive about it is it's link to the early church.

But, if a group of Christians met in a "house church" and had a Eucharist of their own and word and sacrament were celebrated properly and with dignity, why would it not be vailid?

That limits God's gift.

I am a high-churchy, bishop loving, smells and bells kinda guy, but the Eucharist is ALL THAT MATTERS for me in a church, really my only requirement for a parish is that it is served with dignity, respect, and freely given.

 

[black coffee]

while I do love me some metal, can I get a punk-mass?

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

izzdari, are you referring to Church of the Apostles in Seattle?

Doulous, I appriciate your post on AS, as a Roman who became Anglican the issue of AS has always been one of the factors that has kept me in an AS church. BUT, I never thought of it in regards to limiting God's power. My uncle is a former LCMS priest and had explained this to many times, but it never made sense until now.

I guess what is attractive about it is it's link to the early church.

But, if a group of Christians met in a "house church" and had a Eucharist of their own and word and sacrament were celebrated properly and with dignity, why would it not be vailid?

That limits God's gift.

I am a high-churchy, bishop loving, smells and bells kinda guy, but the Eucharist is ALL THAT MATTERS for me in a church, really my only requirement for a parish is that it is served with dignity, respect, and freely given.

You guessed it!