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Difference between knowing and experiencing?

NotreDame

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In this argument you are highlighting the limitations of human communication, not demonstrating that experience is knowledge. His friends have subjective accounts and so his being told what it is like is deficient both in terms of his friends' personal skills of communication and the inherent limitations of language as a means of communication.

No, I am not highlighting the limitations of communication. Thanks but no thanks to strawmanning my argument. One person does not know what "third base" feels like. Yes, they may be able to explain it to him, but he will not know until he experiences it. He has an idea, a concept, but having never experienced, he still does not have knowledge of it.

It must be admitted, there are some instances where no words can properly, accurately, or correctly convey some experience, necessitating one experience it to know what it feels like. This is precisely what transpired in my example.

Have you ever ran a marathon? Do you know what it feels like to your body, mentally, emotionally, and physically to run 26.2 miles?

I think I have cited enough example to show how experience does constitute as knowledge.
 
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Matthew_18:14

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Then How could Jesus have been tempted by . . . anything? Humans can be tempted because humans can't see the end from the beginning.

Bill,

"to entice to do wrong by promise of pleasure or gain" -merriam-webster.com

If Jesus is tempted it does not mean that he was thinking about doing any of the things that the people and the devil were tempting him with. Therefore Jesus can still be thought of as God (at least as far as this argument goes). Please let me know if you have anything else that would make you believe that Jesus was not God come down to Earth and I'll try to answer it to the best of my ability.

Aaron
 
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funyun

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No, I am not highlighting the limitations of communication. Thanks but no thanks to strawmanning my argument.

Calm down.

One person does not know what "third base" feels like. Yes, they may be able to explain it to him, but he will not know until he experiences it. He has an idea, a concept, but having never experienced, he still does not have knowledge of it.

It must be admitted, there are some instances where no words can properly, accurately, or correctly convey some experience, necessitating one experience it to know what it feels like. This is precisely what transpired in my example.

That's precisely what my point was. Sometimes words cannot properly, accurately, or correctly convey what an experience is like. But you are setting up a false dilemma, saying that if words cannot then the only way to know is through experience of that thing.

Essentially this discussion has morphed into a strange variation on Mary's Room.
 
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Est.1977

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Suppose the other men described third base perfectly to him; that there were no limitations as to the communicative power of the human language. Does the last guy now know what third base feels like? His concept of third base is fully accurate. Could we call his idea of third base knowledge?

There is no such communication that we know of. Consequently, the extent of the communicative power depends on how you define it. We communicate via symbolic representations of what we perceive. Their meanings are agreed upon by the communicators. For example, the third base has an agreed-upon meaning, but we can only know what that is like from our own experience. If we lack that experience to conceptualize the third base, then we can only infer. To overcome all these obstacles, the communication would have to be something beyond what we use. It'd be like pumping into our brain all the information that the third base generates (if that is the extent of such experience.) Then... at that point, is it a communication or an experience?
 
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paug

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I was merely airing a question; if the person had information equatable to the other men's information about third base, but lacked only personal experience, could we call this knowledge? That is, is experience an essential component of knowledge?

I'm not sure how to approach this. The person's grasp of the concept of third base seems just like a priori "knowledge", like "I know that all spiders have 8 legs", or that kinetic friction acts in the direction opposite to that of the motion. There's no personal experience involved. Could we still call that knowledge?
 
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funyun

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I think this topic as far as I have participated in it has strayed a bit. Let me clarify my position: I'm a strict empiricist. I believe most propositions about the real world are a posteriori propositions, and therefore experience is essential as the foundation of much knowledge. But that doesn't make experience alone identical to knowledge, especially in terms of a single experience devoid of the context of other considerations (experience in a vacuum, if you will).
 
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Est.1977

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I believe, you are questioning whether testimony can be knowledge. I think that it can be a very complicated issue. Much of our knowledge is based on testimony, but how reliable is a testimony? It is safer to call knowledge based on testimony just beliefs. Neverthless, we regard knowledge based on testimony "knowledge" in our everyday lives. So in this sense, if you knew everything about third base, you have knowledge of third base. But, it would be knowledge that is missing subjective experience of third base, which is like most other beliefs that we hold. How much a posteriori knowledge do we have? I believe not much. We may be physically in direct contact with the world, but our brain does not hold everything we take in as is. A lot of sensation gets processed. Then, do we really have any knowledge, the kind that the philosophically inclined folks here uphold? I think not. So, paug, I believe we can have knowledge without experience. However, the discussion of this thread has been whether experience is knowledge. Well... when people say in a colloquial sense, experience is knowledge, I think they are filling in a lot of missing reasons in their mind to support this claim. I think this is no brainer. Experience is a basis for knowledge. We don't call experience knowledge. Experience is experience. Knowledge is what we do with experience. We could formulate statements about a particular experience and we could call that knowledge. So far though, this discussion really concerns humans. In order for God to know everything, God would have to have experience of everything that there is.
 
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NotreDame

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Calm down.



That's precisely what my point was. Sometimes words cannot properly, accurately, or correctly convey what an experience is like. But you are setting up a false dilemma, saying that if words cannot then the only way to know is through experience of that thing.

Essentially this discussion has morphed into a strange variation on Mary's Room.

I have not set up any false dilemma.

Now to amplify what I have previously said.

Knowledge is to be "aware." "Fire produces heat," is to be aware of 1. fire and what it is and 2. it produces heat (this also requires one to be aware, of course, of the concepts used to represent objects. The word "fire" after all is a man made term used to describe and represent some object in our world). This is knowledge. However, imagine someone who has never seen, heard, or read about fire, and never felt heat, and you explain to them "fire produces heat." What if, however, he then asks what is "heat"? You can tell him heat is energy, it is the opposite of cold, it is warmth. You have given him knowledge of heat but having never experienced it, or anything akin to it, he does not know how it "feels" and you cannot impart this upon him by merely describing it. I do not think he can have knowledge, be aware, of how heat feels by use of words in my example.

So it seems to me, then, it is at least possible there are some situations one must experience to acquire knowledge about the situation, at least in terms of a sensory information.

But there mere experience of fire and heat is not sufficient to constitute as knowledge, which is to say mere experience alone is not enough to qualify as knowledge. As I stated previously, knowledge is to be 'aware' and if from your experience you do not become 'aware' of something, then the experience did not constitute as knowledge.I'd like to use the phrase, "Your brain made the connection." In my example above, the man has to make the mental connection he feels something when being around a fire, and the something he feels is "heat." His brain made a connection.

Let's use an example, or exmaples.

1. Let's suppose a person has a very short memory, so short he forgets everything after 5 minutes. So, one day, he is walking on a very cold day and comes across what we call a "fire." He observes through his senses it gives off heat. So, he decides to stay by the fire through the night. The next day, he awakes, the fire is out, and he is now walking again in the cold. He is freezing. He has now spent 1 hour out in the cold since he has awakened. He observes, once again, what we call a "fire." However, having forgotten the fire he encountered last night gave off heat, and not making the mental connection heat produces fire, what I called, "Your brain made the connection," then he continues to walk on and eventually dies of hypothermia.

Or, let's suppose we do not have a brain. Let's further suppose the brain is not needed for the sense to operate, for us to "feel, see, hear or smell," anything. So, we have individual Y. He detects an odor, what we call "gas," coming from a source, say a hole in the ground. He observes someone lighting a match and the hole in the ground catching on fire. He never 'mentally' makes the connectionn because he has no brain to do so and so he goes home, detects the same odor of "gas" in his home, but having never made the "mental connection" he decides to light a cigarette and obliterates his own home in doing so; his lacking a brain to make a mental connection between what he smelled as being flammable.

It is similar placing your hand over fire, observing flesh burns, and it is painful, but then doing it again at a later point, the brain either not making the connection between fire burning flesh, and how painful it is, or such a connection was made but forgotten, thereby allowing the person to repeat the same painful experience again.

From this I deduce the following about knowledge.

1. The brain makes a mental connection and
2. One is aware of it or remains aware of it (it being the mental connection).
 
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NotreDame

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I think this topic as far as I have participated in it has strayed a bit. Let me clarify my position: I'm a strict empiricist. I believe most propositions about the real world are a posteriori propositions, and therefore experience is essential as the foundation of much knowledge. But that doesn't make experience alone identical to knowledge, especially in terms of a single experience devoid of the context of other considerations (experience in a vacuum, if you will).

I think, based on my previous post, we agree.

However, I think experience can constitute as knowledge, where knowledge is being aware and the brain making a mental conncetion.

For example, the person who had sex and says, "I know what it feels like to have sex," and "Sex feels like to me," is knowledge. The person now is aware of what it feels like to "them," they are aware of how it stimulates "them" and this knowledge the acquire about themselves. They have learned something about themselves, principally how they react and respond mentally and emotionally to sex.

Hasn't the person making such a statement demonstrating they have acquired knowledge about themselves, principaly how X makes them feel or feels to them? Isn't it true the listener or reader has also acquired knowledge about this person?

Isn't it true we use this information from time to time? For example, you have two brothers, close in age, who spend an inordinate amount of time togther. Or we could envision best friends, boyfriend/girlfriend, husband and wife for my example. We are all familiar with one person antognizing another, based on their knowledge of what can irritate the other person. Or, we are aware of one person doing something sweet for the other person, knowing it will make them happy. What is this predicated upon? Knowledge of the other person, communicated to us by the person who knows what they like, dislike, and how stimuli make them feel and react. Is this not knowledge? I think it is knowledge on the same level as "fire produces heat."
 
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Knowledge involves mediation through concepts, ideas, etc. Experience is unmediated -- direct relation of the world. Presumably God's omnipresence negates knowledge of present actions. And if eternity takes care of it, somehow past ones.
 
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That's always going to be a problem. Russell said, though, that we have no doubt of our sensations -- even if we can't prove that these sensations aren't illusory (i.e., the Cartesian demon). I should have said, perhaps, "world" instead of world.
 
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funyun

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That's always going to be a problem. Russell said, though, that we have no doubt of our sensations -- even if we can't prove that these sensations aren't illusory (i.e., the Cartesian demon). I should have said, perhaps, "world" instead of world.

I think we can't prove they aren't illusory but that we should also doubt the ability of our sensations to give us accurate perceptions. I think it is possible to grasp a phenomenon in such a way that you in fact are grasping the thing-in-itself, but that you can never concurrently be aware that you have traversed that wall between the two (unless you are dealing with logic or maths). However, I think activities that utilize rigor, both empirical and rational, can increase the accuracy of our perceptions given by sensation, and we can thus speak more confidently of our conclusions, while still practicing restraint with regards to claims of certainty. We can, still, never be certain, but we can be assured induction in accordance with rigor will yield more valid conclusions, and I believe abduction is also a logically justified practice.
 
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What does the thing-in-itself? We only know the thing-in-itself-synthesized-with-ourselves. The thing-in-itself is axiomatic. That's a bit of a digression (still fun). And I think we can speak of accurate perceptions, but we still can't be sure whether or not these perceptions relate to anything (a world of things-in-themselves) "real" -- not a dreamworld, or something like that. The dreamworld could have consistency; a consistent deity could be imagining it. Accuracy of perception is relative to the realness of the "world"-in-itself.
 
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funyun

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What does the thing-in-itself?

Do you mean "what is"? As you might predict: that which is as it exists apart from our perception of it. I hate the term "noumenon" because I disagree with Kant's idealist metaphysical extrapolations, but I use thing-in-itself identically-- epistemologically, anyway.

We only know the thing-in-itself-synthesized-with-ourselves. The thing-in-itself is axiomatic. That's a bit of a digression (still fun).

That's precisely my point. With the exception of the a priori, like math and logic, the thing-in-itself is unknowable (that is, the thing, as we perceive it, the phenomenon, may be identical to the thing-in-itself, but we cannot concurrently be aware of this).

And I think we can speak of accurate perceptions, but we still can't be sure whether or not these perceptions relate to anything (a world of things-in-themselves) "real" -- not a dreamworld, or something like that. The dreamworld could have consistency; a consistent deity could be imagining it.

Again, I agree. We can't be certain the world is not in our heads, or the result of some Cartesian demon's trickery. But, I personally believe we can justifiably and logically proceed under the presumption the world is real, utilizing abduction.

Accuracy of perception is relative to the realness of the "world"-in-itself.

I'm not quite sure what you mean, but from what I can tell, I disagree. (In)accuracy of perception is inherent to experiential sensation itself. In short, if you are the kind of thing which can sense, there is a fundamental limitation on the accuracy of your perception of that which you sense.
 
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By "world"-in-itself I meant the collection of things-in-themselves -- and arguably they wouldn't be particulars; particularity might be a quality of consciousness; there's no telling what this higher reality could be. It can't be proven; it can't be spoken of literally (to speak is to project subjectivity). I don't think I disagree with you at all. I'm just rambling.
 
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funyun

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By "world"-in-itself I meant the collection of things-in-themselves -- and arguably they wouldn't be particulars; particularity might be a quality of consciousness; there's no telling what this higher reality could be. It can't be proven; it can't be spoken of literally (to speak is to project subjectivity). I don't think I disagree with you at all. I'm just rambling.

Rambling is an admirable form of exegesis.
 
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NotreDame

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Do you mean "what is"? As you might predict: that which is as it exists apart from our perception of it.

I think it is possible to grasp a phenomenon in such a way that you in fact are grasping the thing-in-itself, but that you can never concurrently be aware that you have traversed that wall between the two (unless you are dealing with logic or maths). As you might predict: that which is as it exists apart from our perception of it

This is a very intriguing point Funyun. What must be true, based on this reasoning, is our senses are not sufficient, is not sufficient evidence to know with certainty the proverbial "wall" has been traversed. But why do you think this is the case?

Let's use the example of an ink pen. Why can't our senses, the touch and sight of the ink pen, serve as sufficient evidence for us to know the pen exists as it does apart from our senses perception of it?

That's precisely my point. With the exception of the a priori, like math and logic, the thing-in-itself is unknowable (that is, the thing, as we perceive it, the phenomenon, may be identical to the thing-in-itself, but we cannot concurrently be aware of this).

This reasoning parallels David Hume's "skepticism." I admit, there is an inherent degree of circularity, question begging, in how we make sense of the world, whether it is in science or not. The question of, "How do you know the pen is REALLY black," to which the reply of, "Because my eyes perceive it as black," demonstrates the first question is not satisfactorily answered with the reply illuminating its potential to beg the question. The next question in this progression is, "How do you know your senses are accurate?" The latter question is of course one people have been perhaps trying to answer since David Hume really presented the problem in a coherent manner in his works, and you seem to be making the same point he did.

However, I think you best answered the question.

But, I personally believe we can justifiably and logically proceed under the presumption the world is real, utilizing abduction.

And have we not been doing this, with some very good success, since the dawn of man? Which, I suppose, brings me to an interesting point.

Given the long history of how successfully we have been, and finding no evidence to the contrary, can't we with a high degree of certainty, not certainty itself, know what we perceive is as it exists apart from our perception of it? Maybe this is stronger in regards to those perceptions which have been constant for, I do not know, X number of millennia?
 
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