Difference between amillennialism & preterism

Biblewriter · Jun 24, 2017

...as I said... you have only proved my point.

Biblewriter · Jun 24, 2017

It takes a very srtrong imagination to wrest the scriptures to fit this account. The only way to make the scriptural prophecies even appear to match up to the historical accounts, is to ignore most of the details of the prophecy allegedly having been fulfilled.

BABerean2 · Jun 24, 2017

Biblewriter said:
It takes a very srtrong imagination to wrest the scriptures to fit this account. The only way to make the scriptural prophecies even appear to match up to the historical accounts, is to ignore most of the details of the prophecy allegedly having been fulfilled.

Dan 8:8　 Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven.　(Alexander the Great and his four generals)

Dan 8:9　 And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land.　

Dan 8:10　 And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them.　

Dan 8:11　 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down.　
(Antiochus commanded that the sacrifices be stopped. He also took the implements of temple worship and the altar of burnt offering.)

Dan 8:12　 Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered.　

Dan 8:13　 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, "How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?"
　
Dan 8:14　 And he said to me, "For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed."　
(Antiochus stopped the sacrificial system for over three years. This is confirmed by Josephus. The sanctuary was cleansed and rededicated by the Maccabees. Hanukkah celebrates the rededication of the temple.)

Dan 8:15　 Then it happened, when I, Daniel, had seen the vision and was seeking the meaning, that suddenly there stood before me one having the appearance of a man.　

Dan 8:16　 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of the Ulai, who called, and said, "Gabriel, make this man understand the vision."　

Dan 8:17　 So he came near where I stood, and when he came I was afraid and fell on my face; but he said to me, "Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end."　

Dan 8:18　 Now, as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me, and stood me upright.　

Dan 8:19　 And he said, "Look, I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation; for at the appointed time the end shall be.　

Dan 8:20　 The ram which you saw, having the two horns—they are the kings of Media and Persia.
　
Dan 8:21　 And the male goat is the kingdom of Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king.　(The king of Greece was Alexander the Great.)

Dan 8:22　 As for the broken horn and the four that stood up in its place, four kingdoms shall arise out of that nation, but not with its power.　
(After Alexander died his kingdom was divided up among four of his generals. This fact can be confirmed by any good book on ancient history.)

Dan 8:23　 "And in the latter time of their kingdom, When the transgressors have reached their fullness, A king shall arise, Having fierce features, Who understands sinister schemes.　
(Antiochus came up out of the Selucid kingdom. He was a master of deceit.)

Dan 8:24　 His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power; He shall destroy fearfully, And shall prosper and thrive; He shall destroy the mighty, and also the holy people.　
(During 167 BC Antiochus killed thousands of Jews living in Jerusalem.)

Dan 8:25　 "Through his cunning He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule; And he shall exalt himself in his heart. He shall destroy many in their prosperity. He shall even rise against the Prince of princes; But he shall be broken without human means.　
(Antiochus was not killed by humans, but by disease.)

Dan 8:26　 "And the vision of the evenings and mornings Which was told is true; Therefore seal up the vision, For it refers to many days in the future."　

The Jews of Jesus time understood this perfectly, since they celebrated Hanukkah every year as found in John 10:22.

They would have viewed this prophecy by Daniel and fulfillment by Antiochus as one of the greatest proofs that God's Word is the truth, and some of us deny it in order to make our modern doctrine work.

.

Biblewriter · Jun 24, 2017

BABerean2 said:
Dan 8:8　 Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven.　(Alexander the Great and his four generals)

Dan 8:9　 And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land.　

Dan 8:10　 And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them.　

Dan 8:11　 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down.　
(Antiochus commanded that the sacrifices be stopped. He also took the implements of temple worship and the altar of burnt offering.)

Dan 8:12　 Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered.　

Dan 8:13　 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, "How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?"
　
Dan 8:14　 And he said to me, "For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed."　
(Antiochus stopped the sacrificial system for over three years. This is confirmed by Josephus. The sanctuary was cleansed and rededicated by the Maccabees. Hanukkah celebrates the rededication of the temple.)

Dan 8:15　 Then it happened, when I, Daniel, had seen the vision and was seeking the meaning, that suddenly there stood before me one having the appearance of a man.　

Dan 8:16　 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of the Ulai, who called, and said, "Gabriel, make this man understand the vision."　

Dan 8:17　 So he came near where I stood, and when he came I was afraid and fell on my face; but he said to me, "Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end."　

Dan 8:18　 Now, as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me, and stood me upright.　

Dan 8:19　 And he said, "Look, I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation; for at the appointed time the end shall be.　

Dan 8:20　 The ram which you saw, having the two horns—they are the kings of Media and Persia.
　
Dan 8:21　 And the male goat is the kingdom of Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king.　(The king of Greece was Alexander the Great.)

Dan 8:22　 As for the broken horn and the four that stood up in its place, four kingdoms shall arise out of that nation, but not with its power.　
(After Alexander died his kingdom was divided up among four of his generals. This fact can be confirmed by any good book on ancient history.)

Dan 8:23　 "And in the latter time of their kingdom, When the transgressors have reached their fullness, A king shall arise, Having fierce features, Who understands sinister schemes.　
(Antiochus came up out of the Selucid kingdom. He was a master of deceit.)

Dan 8:24　 His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power; He shall destroy fearfully, And shall prosper and thrive; He shall destroy the mighty, and also the holy people.　
(During 167 BC Antiochus killed thousands of Jews living in Jerusalem.)

Dan 8:25　 "Through his cunning He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule; And he shall exalt himself in his heart. He shall destroy many in their prosperity. He shall even rise against the Prince of princes; But he shall be broken without human means.　
(Antiochus was not killed by humans, but by disease.)

Dan 8:26　 "And the vision of the evenings and mornings Which was told is true; Therefore seal up the vision, For it refers to many days in the future."　

The Jews of Jesus time understood this perfectly, since they celebrated Hanukkah every year as found in John 10:22.

They would have viewed this prophecy by Daniel and fulfillment by Antiochus as one of the greatest proofs that God's Word is the truth, and some of us deny it in order to make our modern doctrine work.

.

As usual, you diverted the subject from what was under discussion, which was an alleged fulfillment of "end time" prophecy in the last half of the first century, to a discussion of events had taken place several hundred years earlier.

The events you speak of were most certainly not a fulfillment of the prophecies about the abomination of desolation, for that was still future when Jesus spoke of it in Matthew 24:15.

BABerean2 · Jun 24, 2017

Biblewriter said:
As usual, you diverted the subject from what was under discussion, which was an alleged fulfillment of "end time" prophecy in the last half of the first century, to a discussion of events had taken place several hundred years earlier.

The events you speak of were most certainly not a fulfillment of the prophecies about the abomination of desolation, for that was still future when Jesus spoke of it in Matthew 24:15.

Not based on a parallel study of the Gospels...

Mat 24:15　 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),　
Mat 24:16　 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.　

Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　
Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　

The Jews of Jesus day were well aware that Matthew's Gospel was speaking of events related to John 10:22, when Christ used the phrase related to Daniel's prophecy about the events of 167 BC.

Luke's Gospel is directed to more of a Gentile audience who may not have understood the prophecies found in Daniel, so he spelled it our for them.

During 66 AD the Romans under the command of Cestius Gallus surrounded Jerusalem, but left for some unknown reason. Thousands of Roman soldiers were killed by the Jews during the retreat.

The early Christians left the city before the final siege of 70 AD.

The timeline is clearly found in Luke's Gospel and should be avoided by Dispensational writers who would wish for it to not be made so clear. The subtitles are found in the NKJV on e-Sword.

Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem

Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　
Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　
Luk 21:22　 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　
Luk 21:23　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.　
Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　

The Coming of the Son of Man

Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　
Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　
Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　
Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　

.

jgr · Jun 24, 2017

Biblewriter said:
I spoke of what we know, not of what we surmise.

From post 155:

This doesn't sound surmised:
The document must come from the period between the two revolts.
This doesn't sound surmised:
Dialogue with Trypho must have been written after it.

So what is surmised?

Copperhead · Jun 25, 2017

parousia70 said:
Are you saying People in General are incapable of sinning without Satan influencing or deceiving them somehow?

We used to call that "Flip Wilson Theology"...
Such might be lost on the Millennial set tho...

No, we are quite capable of sinning on our own. But, for instance, the 20th century was the most terrible century in terms of death, mayhem, and destruction that has happened, it would be logical to assume that Satan is still out and about. One thing for certain, the world is not getting more Christ like.

Copperhead · Jun 25, 2017

5thKingdom said:
Understanding the CONTEXT of Rev 20 was the SOULS of the Saints
is not a new understanding.... it is the TRADITIONAL Amillennial teaching.
Why would you say it is a "whopper" when it is a TRADITIONAL teaching
of early Christians (both Catholic and Protestant)?

.

Well, best I can tell, the church, and it's leadership, was in deep trouble before the 1st century came to a close. If you think that statement is ridiculous, then maybe a quick read of the letters to the 7 churches in The Revelation might clarify it for you. Throw in the letters to Corinth also. Relying on what the early church taught does not make that strong of a case for correct doctrine. Jesus had some very choice words for those that relied on tradition.

BABerean2 · Jun 26, 2017

Copperhead said:
Well, best I can tell, the church, and it's leadership, was in deep trouble before the 1st century came to a close. If you think that statement is ridiculous, then maybe a quick read of the letters to the 7 churches in The Revelation might clarify it for you. Throw in the letters to Corinth also. Relying on what the early church taught does not make that strong of a case for correct doctrine. Jesus had some very choice words for those that relied on tradition.

The whole Premill doctrine hangs on ignoring "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18 and insisting that the Book of Revelation is in chronological order, which it is not.

Christ returns "as a thief" at Armageddon, in Revelation 16:15-16, and He also returns in Revelation 19.

.

parousia70 · Jun 26, 2017

Copperhead said:
No, we are quite capable of sinning on our own. But, for instance, the 20th century was the most terrible century in terms of death, mayhem, and destruction that has happened, it would be logical to assume that Satan is still out and about.

I'm not much for assumptions when it comes to theology.

Either Human beings are capable of the gravest of sins all on their own, or they aren't.
Scripture says they are.
Jeremiah 17:9
“The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?

One thing for certain, the world is not getting more Christ like.

The globe is infinitely better off than it was 2000 years ago. Because of Christianity, the knowledge of God is no longer geographically and tribally restricted. Christianity takes the covenant and extends it everywhere. And, everywhere Christianity is accepted, paganism is defeated. The world, because of the powers of the Cross and Christ's rulership, has become improved and will continue to become improved according to God's sovereign determination.

Compared to the state of the planet 2000 years ago, there is no question that both the moral sense and the covenantal reality of nations have been radically changed for the better by Christ and the Church. Here's a great quote from David Chilton about the progress of Christendom:

"Examples could be multiplied in every field. The whole rise of Western Civilization - science and technology, medicine, the arts, constitutionalism, the jury system, free enterprise, literacy, increasing productivity, a rising standard of living, the high status of women - is attributable to one major fact: the West has been transformed by Christianity. True, the transformation is not yet complete. There are many battles ahead. But the point is that, even in what is still largely an early Christian civilization, God has showered us with blessings." - David Chilton

Copperhead · Jun 26, 2017

Funny BA, I have held a Pre-Mil position most of my life and never saw The Revelation as being strictly in chronological order.

For instance, after your reference in Rev 11, we have Rev 12 where the woman is with child and gives birth. The woman is a clear reference to Israel, as outlined in Gen 37:9-11. The child has to be a reference to the Messiah as outlined in Rev 12:5. Now this could not be in chronological order, could it?

Some think this is a reference to the Church, but that would be a distinct problem. The Church has always been viewed as the virgin bride of the Messiah. If this is the Church, then she has a problem.... she is pregnant.

Christ can only return "as a thief" to those that are not expecting Him. One of the believer's greatest hopes is the return of the Messiah to gather them.

Titus 2:13 (NKJV) looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Copperhead · Jun 26, 2017

Parousia, you honestly believe the planet is better off than 2000 years ago? Did you skip those parts about the Inquisition, the Dark Ages, and the 20th Century in your history classes? In the latter case, more people were killed in the 20th Century than in any century preceding it. Even the Roman Emperors, combined, did not slaughter as many people as Stalin or Mao did individually, and Hitler (a Catholic who has never been excommunicated to this very day) was a choir boy in terms of killing compared to those two evil tyrants. And the organized Church has been guilty of slaughtering many folks as well over the last 2 millennia. The organized church has a dismal track record. Not just Catholics, though I pile them in with the organized church reference.

parousia70 · Jun 26, 2017

Copperhead said:
If you think that statement is ridiculous, then maybe a quick read of the letters to the 7 churches in The Revelation might clarify it for you.

Since, as far as I can tell, you apparently don't take those letters literally, as having any direct application to those 1st century congregations, you might pick something else to support your claim...

Unless you do take them literally?

parousia70 · Jun 26, 2017

Copperhead said:
Parousia, you honestly believe the planet is better off than 2000 years ago? Did you skip those parts about the Inquisition, the Dark Ages, and the 20th Century in your history classes? In the latter case, more people were killed in the 20th Century than in any century preceding it. Even the Roman Emperors, combined, did not slaughter as many people as Stalin or Mao did individually, and Hitler (a Catholic who has never been excommunicated to this very day) was a choir boy in terms of killing compared to those two evil tyrants. And the organized Church has been guilty of slaughtering many folks as well over the last 2 millennia. The organized church has a dismal track record. Not just Catholics, though I pile them in with the organized church reference.

Cured Polio Lately? Why yes, we have.

Did your mother Die in Childbirth? Not likely.

Is any nation in the west at war with another western nation?

That stopped as recent at the 80's...

And if Death rate is your measuring stick, Antibiotics alone have saved more lives than were killed by Hitler, Stalin & Mao etc.. Combined....

and that's just Antibiotics... Chemotherapy, Radiation & Surgical advances for cancer have grown exponentially and continue on that trend... mental health treatment and understanding has only grown... the raw metrics for a world that is getting better and better are definable, recordable and demonstrable.

Does it ebb and flow... of course, but Christianity is in it's infancy... imagine what this world will look like after 2000 more years of victory? or 20,000?

parousia70 · Jun 26, 2017

Copperhead said:
Christ can only return "as a thief" to those that are not expecting Him.

How many Comings of Christ "as a Thief" do you say there are?

BABerean2 · Jun 26, 2017

Copperhead said:
Christ can only return "as a thief" to those that are not expecting Him.

Not just "as a thief", but "as a thief" at Armageddon.

Rev 16:15　 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."　
Rev 16:16　 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.　

.

Copperhead · Jun 26, 2017

parousia70 said:
Since, as far as I can tell, you apparently don't take those letters literally, as having any direct application to those 1st century congregations, you might pick something else to support your claim...

Unless you do take them literally?

Since, as far as I can tell, you could use a remedial reading course, I do take the letters to the seven churches literally. Actually, literally and prophetically. Else I would not have used them to support my contention that the church was already in deep trouble before the end of the 1st century.

Those letters to the seven churches spells that out. Only one was doing ok, and to hold on. The rest had doctrinal issues that were not pleasing to Jesus. Some were downright heretical and at risk of condemnation. I see those letters not only directed to those 1st century congregations, but they equate quite well to many churches thru history and today. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

So, using early church theological positions as support for present day hermeneutics and theological positions is not the wisest thing to do. The church at large was already stepping all over itself before the ink was barely dry on the New Testament.

Copperhead · Jun 26, 2017

parousia70 said:
Cured Polio Lately? Why yes, we have.

Did your mother Die in Childbirth? Not likely.

Is any nation in the west at war with another western nation?

That stopped as recent at the 80's...

And if Death rate is your measuring stick, Antibiotics alone have saved more lives than were killed by Hitler, Stalin & Mao etc.. Combined....

and that's just Antibiotics... Chemotherapy, Radiation & Surgical advances for cancer have grown exponentially and continue on that trend... mental health treatment and understanding has only grown... the raw metrics for a world that is getting better and better are definable, recordable and demonstrable.

Does it ebb and flow... of course, but Christianity is in it's infancy... imagine what this world will look like after 2000 more years of victory? or 20,000?

You speak totally from the physical realm. I was speaking from the position of the spiritual condition of mankind. That should have been very clear. We have had wonderful scientific advancements. But with that, we also have invented more ways to kill and maim people, and in greater numbers than could have ever been imagined just 200 years ago, let alone 2000. Our spiritual condition as humans has not improved, but has actually degraded. The Gospel may have gone out across the world, but it really hasn't taken hold. But then, Jesus said the gate was narrow and few would find it.

The church is in massive decline in the western world. China has more Christians now than the U.S. and Europe combined. They are persecuted, yet the church grows. We barely suffer any real persecution and yet we are turning from God. I believe that the persecuted church grows because they have a much clearer focus on who Jesus is, and what it means to trust in Him without getting all bogged down in theological rabbit trails.

This is beautifully shown in the parable of the pearl in Mat 13:45-46. How is a pearl made into a item of value and beauty? It starts as a irritation in a oyster (a unclean item in the Mosaic law, like gentiles typically are), it grows by accretion. And it is later removed from it's place to be an item of adornment. The church of Jesus is similar. It is an irritation to the world. It grows thru persecution. And it will be removed from the world to be an adornment for the Messiah. In the parable, the merchant sold all he had to buy that pearl. The Messiah gave Himself to purchase and redeem His bride, the believers.

Biblewriter · Jun 26, 2017

BABerean2 said:
The whole Premill doctrine hangs on ignoring "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18 and insisting that the Book of Revelation is in chronological order, which it is not.

Christ returns "as a thief" at Armageddon, in Revelation 16:15-16, and He also returns in Revelation 19.

.

Actually, the premil doctrine hangs on about a fifth of the Bible. Although Revelation 20:2-7 is the only place where the length of the coming earthly kingdom is stated to be a thousand years, close to a fifth of the entire Bible is devoted to doctrine about this future earthly kingdom, or to the events leading up to its formation.

You have chosen to believe that none of these literally hundreds of prophecies actually meant what they so very explicitly and repeatedly said.But our choices have zero effect on the plans of an almighty God, who has clearly declared what He is going to do.

Copperhead · Jun 26, 2017

You are right. What we think is the case has no bearing on what God Himself has mapped out and will do. It is just spit balling. While I do admit I am more in the pre-trib camp, I also like to jokingly say I am a Pan-Tribulationist. That means I believe it will all pan out according to God's plan.

Difference between amillennialism & preterism

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