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Difference between a fact ,theory and a guess

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mindlight

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Sorry to butt in but I’m not so sure about creation ex nihilo being so universally accepted. Genesis 1 doesn’t actually state that God brought everything into being, but that he brought order to some chaotic state. We generally assume that he made all the material too, but it’s not explicitly in the text.

The heavens and the earth were created by God is the clear implication of Gen 1:1 and implies they did not exist before God created them. Since the heavens and the earth is our entire observable universe nothing that has been made that we are aware of existed before God created it.

Also Hebrews 11:3

By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible

Implies that what was created was not created from anything that is observable. That it was with a word that God created everything
 
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mindlight

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Invoking god(s) when one doesnt know the answer is a non-answer.

Knowing the answer on the basis of faith in a credible witness is more authoritative than guessing about an answer from incomplete and corrupted sources and on the heresay of finite, imperfect and mortal witnesses who cannot duplicate what they describe nor make any real predictions of future events on the basis of their explanatory models.
 
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mindlight

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No. That's just a claim, not an explanation.
Plus, you can "claim" pretty much anything when you get to invoke magic.

It is an explanation that you disagree with which like Big Bang Theory, Abiogenesis and Macro Evolution is NOT scientific but unlike these claims an alternate authority to make up the deficit.

But it would not be possible unless there is such a thing as the process of evolution.
And having knowledge of this process, allows you to do it better and more efficiently.

The best gardeners and horse breeders in the world do not give a whiff of Darwins dirty underpants about evolution and it makes no difference whatsoever to their ability to do their jobs.

Again, calling it "god's code" doesn't mean anything at all.
And once again, if it wasn't for the existing process of evolution (wheter you know about it or not) then selective breeding wouldn't turn a single wild gabbage plant into things like brussel sprouts and broccoli.

Banana cultivation has been around a lot longer than any evolutionary theory has has the cultivation of various seed crops. It makes no difference at all.

You are replying to a quote where an example is given of exactly such predictions, and you then say "you cannot"???????

How obvious can it be......…

A scientific prediction is something like the sun will rise at … or high tide will be this. It is verifiable and makes future predictions. An explanatory theory that simply uses its broad model of categorisations to predict more of the same in one particular area and then has that confirmed by a find is not a predictive model. It is just an explanation with a degree of descriptive integrity.

Awesome... jumping from evolution to abiogenesis and cosmology.
Talk about moving goalposts, lol!
.

Right this is what the thread was actually about. BB, Abiogenesis and Biological Evolution are theories that are not scientific , cannot be verified by normal scientific methodology and make no future predictions which we can test. Overall they explain nothing , add intellectual burden but yield no distinctive practical benefit whatsoever
 
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Subduction Zone

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Knowing the answer on the basis of faith in a credible witness is more authoritative than guessing about an answer from incomplete and corrupted sources and on the heresay of finite, imperfect and mortal witnesses who cannot duplicate what they describe nor make any real predictions of future events on the basis of their explanatory models.
The Bible is not a credible witness. And no one is "guessing" here. That is what creationists do. Scientists test their hypotheses. If they are not testable they are not scientific.

Tell me, how would you falsify the Bible? If you cannot think of a reasonable test it is not scientific.
 
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Subduction Zone

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It is an explanation that you disagree with which like Big Bang Theory, Abiogenesis and Macro Evolution is NOT scientific but unlike these claims an alternate authority to make up the deficit.

No, all of those ideas are testable. They are scientific.


The best gardeners and horse breeders in the world do not give a whiff of Darwins dirty underpants about evolution and it makes no difference whatsoever to their ability to do their jobs.

Really? I doubt it. I bet many of the best gardeners and horse breeders are not totally ignorant of science. Can you support this claim?


Banana cultivation has been around a lot longer than any evolutionary theory has has the cultivation of various seed crops. It makes no difference at all.

Way to miss the point. But keeping oneself ignorant of the science that shows them to be wrong is a common creationist tactic.

A scientific prediction is something like the sun will rise at … or high tide will be this. It is verifiable and makes future predictions. An explanatory theory that simply uses its broad model of categorisations to predict more of the same in one particular area and then has that confirmed by a find is not a predictive model. It is just an explanation with a degree of descriptive integrity.

No, just no. The prediction on Tiktaalik was rather specific. It was far more accurate than any Bible prophecy.

Right this is what the thread was actually about. BB, Abiogenesis and Biological Evolution are theories that are not scientific , cannot be verified by normal scientific methodology and make no future predictions which we can test. Overall they explain nothing , add intellectual burden but yield no distinctive practical benefit whatsoever

Abiogenesis is still in the hypothetical form. There is no overarching theory yet. And thanks for admitting defeat. Science is the development and application of theories. If you do not understand this there is no wonder that you totally fail in your arguments.
 
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Tanj

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Arguing on this Forum on and off for some 15 years now I have noticed that many people seem unable to distinguish what can be definitely known (ie a fact ) and what is a scientific theory and what is a guess.

This thread is going to offer a definition which no doubt a whole load of people will disagree with.

FACT:A fact is demonstrable with repeatable experimentation that anybody with the right equipment and appropriate training could duplicate.

THEORY:A scientific theory is a way of explaining a lot of facts by presenting a model which handles this evidence in a plausible fashion. The value of a scientific theory is weighted by:

1) its explanatory power
2) its ability to duplicate what is described ie. A theory of lifes emergence should also be able to facilitate the creation of life or refer to credible sources with a proven track record of creating life or it is merely a guess
3) by the ability to predict events before they happen e.g. an Asteroid will hit Jupiter at 5 o clock Friday. The sun will rise on January 1st in Lagos Nigeria at precisely....

GUESS:On this Basis I would suggest that the three pillars of modern naturalistic science are all guesses and should be regarded with a degree of agnosticism at best:

1) Big Bang
2) Chemical Emergence of Life - absolutely no supporting factual evidence whatsoever!!!!
3) Biological Evolution

EDIT:
As a result of the subsequent discussion I think it is worth distinguishing between historical and scientific facts. The battle of Waterloo for example is an historical fact verified by innumerable high quality witnesses and sources. But it is not a scientific fact cause it cannot be demonstrated incontrovertibly to have taken place.

The fact is your theory is just a guess.
 
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mindlight

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The Bible is not a credible witness. And no one is "guessing" here. That is what creationists do. Scientists test their hypotheses. If they are not testable they are not scientific.

Tell me, how would you falsify the Bible? If you cannot think of a reasonable test it is not scientific.

Revealed knowledge is different from historical knowledge is different from scientific knowledge. Exposing false scriptures is a matter of power and wisdom not science.
 
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USincognito

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It is an explanation that you disagree with which like Big Bang Theory, Abiogenesis and Macro Evolution is NOT scientific but unlike these claims an alternate authority to make up the deficit.

This vacuous rhetoric is quite humorous. It's funny when non-scientists declare areas of scientific study and scientific theories to not be scientific because they don't like them.


Banana cultivation has been around a lot longer than any evolutionary theory has has the cultivation of various seed crops. It makes no difference at all.

He didn't write the theory of evolution. He wrote the process of evolution and he's right. If the process of evolution didn't exist we wouldn't be able to cultivate the variety of plants that we have from native populations.

A scientific prediction is something like the sun will rise at … or high tide will be this. It is verifiable and makes future predictions.

No, those aren't scientific predictions. Those are observation based forecasting and in the case of sun rise/set are based on historical observations. An example of a scientific prediction is making the observation that humans have one less chromosome than our fellow Hominins the chimpanzees and predicting that humans should have evidence of a chromosome fusion. Sure enough human chromosome 2 has an extra centomere and two extra telemeres. Prediction confirmed.

Another example would be predicting that fossils of a fish/tetrapod transitional should be found middle Devonian strata from a shore or marshy area. Sure enough Tiktaalik was found in such strata. Prediction confirmed.

Right this is what the thread was actually about. BB, Abiogenesis and Biological Evolution are theories that are not scientific , cannot be verified by normal scientific methodology and make no future predictions which we can test. Overall they explain nothing , add intellectual burden but yield no distinctive practical benefit whatsoever

:doh:
 
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Subduction Zone

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Revealed knowledge is different from historical knowledge is different from scientific knowledge. Exposing false scriptures is a matter of power and wisdom not science.
Now you are just making things up. Scientific knowledge has a much better track record.
 
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DogmaHunter

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It is an explanation that you disagree with

No. Wether I agree with it or not, doesn't change the fact that it's just a claim and not an explanation. Explanations explain, they don't just assert. Claims assert.

which like Big Bang Theory, Abiogenesis and Macro Evolution is NOT scientific but unlike these claims an alternate authority to make up the deficit.

The entire scientific community disagrees.

The best gardeners and horse breeders in the world do not give a whiff of Darwins dirty underpants about evolution and it makes no difference whatsoever to their ability to do their jobs.

Whatever you say. This doesn't change the fact, that they wouldn't have a job if it wasn't for the existing process of evolution, since then selective breeding wouldn't accomplish anything at all.

Banana cultivation has been around a lot longer than any evolutionary theory
has has the cultivation of various seed crops. It makes no difference at all.

If the process of evolution didn't exist, then chiquita banana's wouldn't exist.
Then banana's would still look like this:

upload_2018-10-30_9-17-31.png


The same goes for broccoli, brussel sprouts, etc, which were all cultivated (evolved) from the same wild gabbage plant ancestor.

If it wasn't for the evolutionary process, then cultivation wouldn't result in completely new types of vegetables, fruits, etc by selective breeding.


A scientific prediction is something like the sun will rise at …

That would be a prediction based on a theory of heliocentrism and the orbital paths of the various celestial bodies contained therein. This indeed allows for predicting / tracking sunsets and sunrises. But also solar eclipses and the position of any celestial body (the moon, saturn, the other planets,... even stars way out there) relative to the earth at any one time.

Scientific prediction is NOT about predicting "future events". It's about predicting data in general. It's about "what should we see/find" and "what should we NOT see/find" if the theory upon which the predictions are based, is accurate.


An explanatory theory that simply uses its broad model of categorisations to predict more of the same in one particular area and then has that confirmed by a find is not a predictive model. It is just an explanation with a degree of descriptive integrity.

Dude........ Tiktaalik was a previously unknown species. Paleontologists took the theory of evolution and said, if fish evolved into tetrapods in the Devonian, then we should be able to find transitional fish/tetrapod species in Devonian rock. So they took a geological map, looked for a spot of exposed devonian rock that back in those days would have been an area favourable for fossilisation, went there, started digging and lo and behold, found EXACTLY that which they expected to find. Tiktaalik. A fish with tetrapod features. Or a tetrapod with fish features, if you wish.

They predicted the locality, the age as well as the anatomical feature set. And actually found exactly that.

How can that be, if evolution theory isn't accurate?
This is exactly the equivalent of taking the heliocentric model of the solar system and predict the exact timing of a solar eclipse.

BB, Abiogenesis and Biological Evolution are theories that are not scientific

False.
, cannot be verified by normal scientific methodology and make no future predictions which we can test.

I just gave you one. Twice. Tiktaalik. Found by prediction.
And that's just one example. There are thousands of such.

How do you think that paleontologists decide where to go look for what?
Did you think that they get grants just to go and start digging in random spots, hoping to find something?

Think again.

Overall they explain nothing , add intellectual burden but yield no distinctive practical benefit whatsoever

lol

Customers of my previous employer surely think that optimization modules that use Genetic Algoritms, give them practical benefit. They wouldn't be paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for development of such software if they didn't.

But continue sticking your head in the sand.
 
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xianghua

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No, those aren't scientific predictions. Those are observation based forecasting and in the case of sun rise/set are based on historical observations. An example of a scientific prediction is making the observation that humans have one less chromosome than our fellow Hominins the chimpanzees and predicting that humans should have evidence of a chromosome fusion. Sure enough human chromosome 2 has an extra centomere and two extra telemeres. Prediction confirmed.

id predict it too since human and chimp are about 98% similar, so its unlikely that they have lost entire chromosome\s. are you saying that id is science now?
 
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Subduction Zone

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id predict it too since human and chimp are about 98% similar, so its unlikely that they have lost entire chromosome\s. are you saying that id is science now?
For ID to have predicted that it would have had to have predicted it ahead of time. "Predictions" after the fact are not predictions at all. They are we hoc explanations and are worthless.
 
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Heissonear

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No, all of those ideas are testable. They are scientific.

Abiogenesis is still in the hypothetical
Here we go again.

The ideas presented are not testable to exclude conjecture. They are not understood as factual by scientific evidence.

You have fallen by indoctrination. The reason was receiving information as true which was full of conjecture.

The godless (those without God active in this world) only examine and project information based on occurrence through only natural processes interpretation. The pushed God aside to make such conclusions. Knowingly or not they promoted conjecture-based information.

Conjecture is acceptable to many Earth Scientists. I know, I have lived a life around them. They specialize is speculation and conjecture claims and conclutions .

Again, promoting knowledge based on godless viewpoints does not fly. Those who do so promote misinformation. Knowingly or not.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Here we go again.

The ideas presented are not testable to exclude conjecture. They are not understood as factual by scientific evidence.

You have fallen by indoctrination. The reason was receiving information as true which was full of conjecture.

The godless (those without God active in this world) only examine and project information based on occurrence through only natural processes interpretation. The pushed God aside to make such conclusions. Knowingly or not they promoted conjecture-based information.

Conjecture is acceptable to many Earth Scientists. I know, I have lived a life around them. They specialize is speculation and conjecture claims and conclutions .

Again, promoting knowledge based on godless viewpoints does not fly. Those who do so promote misinformation. Knowingly or not.

And how do you know that? Please present some evidence for your claims. Please use reliable sources.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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The Bible is not a credible witness. And no one is "guessing" here. That is what creationists do. Scientists test their hypotheses. If they are not testable they are not scientific.

Tell me, how would you falsify the Bible? If you cannot think of a reasonable test it is not scientific.
And then ignore the results of those tests that have returned null result after null result in the search for Farie Dust Dark Matter for 80+ years.

How do you test Dark Energy when they can’t even explain what it is?????

Or expanding nothing which only happens way out that a way where it can never be tested?

I’m glad you agree they are not scientific....
 
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Subduction Zone

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And then ignore the results of those tests that have returned null result after null result in the search for Farie Dust Dark Matter for 80+ years.

How do you test Dark Energy when they can’t even explain what it is?????

Or expanding nothing which only happens way out that a way where it can never be tested?

I’m glad you agree they are not scientific....
But they haven't. You are only cherry picking the failures. You are ignoring the evidence for the concept. But then that is the terminal flaw of creationists they never try to account for all of the evidence.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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But they haven't. You are only cherry picking the failures. You are ignoring the evidence for the concept. But then that is the terminal flaw of creationists they never try to account for all of the evidence.
No, I am accepting the failures, every last one of them. I am also accepting those vast halos of plasma right where “the concept” is supposed to be.

Just how much mass do they need of weakly interacting particles gravitationally in their imaginary halo? Say about the same amount in those vast plasma halos that interact mainly electromagnetically and only weakly gravitationally?

The only terminal flaw that exists is ignoring those vast plasma halos of twice the mass of the galaxy itself that exists right where their Fairie Dust was supposed to exist.....

And hence null result after null result, because they are seeing it yet ignoring it for their cash cow....
 
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