Difference Believing and Knowing

dc87 said:

Yes. I don't even feel a leading of the Holy Spirit, unless that is that of a conscience.... which I have had since I was born. If that's the case then the Bible has lost all purpose.

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dc87 said:

...... what? If I don't feel the leading of the Holy Spirit that means you're not saved.... right? Thats what the Bibly says.

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dc87 said:

Yes. I don't even feel a leading of the Holy Spirit, unless that is that of a conscience.... which I have had since I was born. If that's the case then the Bible has lost all purpose.

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dc87 said:

John 17:3

This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Matthew 7:23

Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

John 3:3
Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God"

John 6:29

Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent"

John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

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This a huge (not small) inconsistency I have always had a problem (or misunderstanding) with during my journey.

As far as the English language goes - "believing" is COMPLETELY different than "knowing". For example... the devil "believes" Jesus is the son of God. He does not know Him as his saviour however. I believe dinosaurs existed. I do not know any however.

However the Bible says you must "believe" in Jesus to be the son of God to be saved, and then in another says something completely different... that you must "know" Him. Two completely different things. And then to add to it... it says you must be "born again"... meaning you must be a completely different/changed person.

So thats 3 requirements all apparently independent from each other because they are announced in 3 completely different locations of text.

So what is it? Do you have to meet all three? If so then these statements by Jesus are incomplete are they not? For example, whoever believes Jesus is the son of God may not necessarily be a transformed person or even know Jesus personally at all - and therefore not saved as is asserted.

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Halbhh said:

Yes (me and some portion more than just a few percent I think). I was agnostic, and decided to test Jesus of Nazareth's 'ideas', as I thought of his instructions.

How well would "love your neighbor as yourself" work? I wanted to see.

I tested with random neighbors see what would happen.

It worked great, far better than I thought possible, gaining me good new friends from both next door neighbors. I was impressed, and got it -- this idea is not just ok, but works perfectly.

This guy Jesus was wise I thought, like Emerson or Lao Tzu I thought.

So, after a few years, I decided to test His most radical instruction, the "love your enemy".

I thought it was just an idealistic moment for Him maybe, to say that. Hopeful, optimistic. Probably wouldn't work that well, or only work for a bit while you pour effort into it, like only a reflection from the other person, temporary.

Probably not realistic or that functional, I thought.

But I decided to really test, give it a real try. I had a person in my twice a week dance group that had always treated me with contempt. He didn't like me around. I didn't like him around.

For years.

We really disliked each other.

So in my heart, first, I forgave him some, imagined him a good at heart person that was just very wounded.

I reimagined him. It was effortful.

Then I gathered some actual sympathy for him in my heart, by imagining him to be much like myself. It was effortful.

I decided if he humiliated me, I'd be okay, with all the new friends and love I had been accumulating.

Then, somewhat prepared, I did it for a few seconds, was actually friendly. He was cool at that first time, but definitely less smooth talking that moment than usual. Next time I had less but tried, and he really looked at me, and seemed to melt a bit, stiffly acted a little friendly. Next time it was him doing the friendliness (and I didn't have much gas left in my tank for him).

A years long enemy became really a warm friend. He continued to be warm even when I was so so. I was....floored. I was...shocked.

Really. From an enemy, a real friend. I live in a different party of the country but my heart would be glad to see him!

If I saw him today, we would both smile, and walk to each other, and it would be warm, I know.

See? I started to think: what if maybe Jesus got everything right....

In time I finally did Matthew chapter 7, verses 7-12. (read and see)

That's how I sought and found the Lord (or He did this for me, aiding me). It's like the prodigal. If you seek with all of your heart (like Jer 29:13-14), from a place of real repentance, He will come to meet you.

Click to expand...

Halbhh said:

Yes (me and some portion more than just a few percent I think). I was agnostic, and decided to test Jesus of Nazareth's 'ideas', as I thought of his instructions.

How well would "love your neighbor as yourself" work? I wanted to see.

I tested with random neighbors see what would happen.

It worked great, far better than I thought possible, gaining me good new friends from both next door neighbors. I was impressed, and got it -- this idea is not just ok, but works perfectly.

This guy Jesus was wise I thought, like Emerson or Lao Tzu I thought.

So, after a few years, I decided to test His most radical instruction, the "love your enemy".

I thought it was just an idealistic moment for Him maybe, to say that. Hopeful, optimistic. Probably wouldn't work that well, or only work for a bit while you pour effort into it, like only a reflection from the other person, temporary.

Probably not realistic or that functional, I thought.

But I decided to really test, give it a real try. I had a person in my twice a week dance group that had always treated me with contempt. He didn't like me around. I didn't like him around.

For years.

We really disliked each other.

So in my heart, first, I forgave him some, imagined him a good at heart person that was just very wounded.

I reimagined him. It was effortful.

Then I gathered some actual sympathy for him in my heart, by imagining him to be much like myself. It was effortful.

I decided if he humiliated me, I'd be okay, with all the new friends and love I had been accumulating.

Then, somewhat prepared, I did it for a few seconds, was actually friendly. He was cool at that first time, but definitely less smooth talking that moment than usual. Next time I had less but tried, and he really looked at me, and seemed to melt a bit, stiffly acted a little friendly. Next time it was him doing the friendliness (and I didn't have much gas left in my tank for him).

A years long enemy became really a warm friend. He continued to be warm even when I was so so. I was....floored. I was...shocked.

Really. From an enemy, a real friend. I live in a different party of the country but my heart would be glad to see him!

If I saw him today, we would both smile, and walk to each other, and it would be warm, I know.

See? I started to think: what if maybe Jesus got everything right....

In time I finally did Matthew chapter 7, verses 7-12. (read and see)

That's how I sought and found the Lord (or He did this for me, aiding me). It's like the prodigal. If you seek with all of your heart (like Jer 29:13-14), from a place of real repentance, He will come to meet you.

Click to expand...