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Die Now, In Order To Live Later

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by WebersHome, Jul 17, 2019.

  1. WebersHome

    WebersHome Well-Known Member Supporter

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    When people wait to take their chances at the great white throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15, in all likelihood they will end up like a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron.

    That can be easily avoided by opting to become a joint participant in Christ's crucifixion.

    Rom 6:3 . .Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

    Rom 6:4 . .We have been buried with him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

    Rom 6:5 . .Knowing this, that our old self was crucified with him

    Rom 6:8 . . Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

    Col 3:3 . . For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

    Gal 2:20 . . I am crucified with Christ
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  2. Lulav

    Lulav Everyone will give an account Staff Member Administrator CF Staff Trainer Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Do you have any references to that from the other Apostles?
     
  3. LoreneDD

    LoreneDD Great is Thy Faithfulness Supporter

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    There is this from Jesus "Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.”
    & Psalms 44:22, John 6:57, 14:19-20, 15:4-5, 17:23, 26,
     
  4. WebersHome

    WebersHome Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No, not even one. The epistles written by Jude, James, John, and Peter talk about other stuff.
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  5. LoreneDD

    LoreneDD Great is Thy Faithfulness Supporter

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    Picking up the cross is like being led to slaugter. Every time we fail to follow that’s the need to die again on the cross to the flesh, crucfy the old man. I don’t think there’s a contradiction there either @Lulav
     
  6. WebersHome

    WebersHome Well-Known Member Supporter

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    As stated in post No.1, such a fate can be easily avoided by opting to become a joint participant (a.k.a. joint principal) in Christ's crucifixion.

    Rom 6:3 . .Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?


    FAQ: How?

    A: This is accomplished by means of a special, supernatural initiation process.

    1Cor 12:13 . . For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

    There are two baptisms in Christianity-- one with water, and one with the Spirit. Needless to say; when the chips are down, the Spirit baptism as per 1Cor 12:13 is the only baptism that really matters.

    Eph 4:4-5 . .There is one body, one Spirit, and one baptism.


    FAQ: Can people obtain this Spirit baptism by means of a church service?

    A: Nobody in church can do this; not even the senior pastor. Everyone has to personally contact Jesus Christ on their own for this particular baptism.

    John 4:10-14 . . If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you "Give Me a drink" you would have asked him, and He would have given you living water.

    . . .She said to him: "Sir, You have nothing to draw with and the well is deep; where then do You get that living water? You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you, who gave us the well, and drank of it himself, and his sons, and his cattle?"

    Jesus answered and said to her: "Everyone who drinks of this water shall thirst again; but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."

    John 7:37-39 . .If any man is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. He who believes in me as the Scripture says; from his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water. But this he spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive.

    In John 4:10-14, Jesus instructed the woman to ask of him. In John 7:37-39 he instructed the people to come to him. It's up to each individual to take the initiative to do what says: come to him and ask of him.
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  7. WebersHome

    WebersHome Well-Known Member Supporter

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    FAQ: Why do you believe that what Paul wrote about participation in Christ's crucifixion applies to you?

    A: That's a fair question; and deserves a straight answer.

    Most Christians like to think of themselves as reasonable people. But at the same time they must admit that there are supernatural components of Christianity so absurd and so contrary to common sense that it takes a leap of faith to accept them.

    A leap of faith can be defined as the act of believing in something without, or in spite of, available empirical evidence.

    Christians are fond of using the Bible as empirical evidence to prove that the supernatural components of their religion are true. But that method is unacceptable because quoting the Bible's sayings to prove that the Bible's sayings are true is what's known as circular reasoning, which is tantamount to a judge dismissing all charges against a defendant merely on the basis of him saying he didn't do it.

    Anyway, to answer the question: Paul wrote his letters to Christians. Well; I sincerely believe myself a Christian; so, by association, I believe Paul's teachings about joint participation in Christ's crucifixion apply to me as well as the Christians to whom he originally penned his letters.
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  8. WebersHome

    WebersHome Well-Known Member Supporter

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    FAQ: Just how extensive is this "joint participation" thing you're talking about?

    A: Christ's crucifixion was for the purpose of vindicating the justice system of a very legal-minded God.

    Isa 53:6 . . All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; but The Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him.

    (From here on in I'll just give the broad strokes without quoting Scripture.)

    Well then, if it's true that God caused my iniquity to fall on Jesus' shoulders, then as a joint principal in his crucifixion, I've paid my debts to the law of God, i.e. I've given the law of God its pound of flesh, so to speak. There's a very important upside to this.

    Jesus went to the cross for me not just up to the point when I first believed in the purpose of his crucifixion, but from then on too. In other words, my entire life was nailed up there with him from first to last; which is at least one of the reasons why the Bible urges me to reckon myself deceased.

    Now, I am not only a joint principal in Christ's crucifixion, but also a joint principal in his burial and his resurrection. So while I am supposed to reckon myself deceased, I'm also supposed to reckon myself resurrected.

    That's good because Jesus rose from the dead with immortality. So then, since I am a joint principal in his resurrection, then I'm supposed to reckoned myself immortal, i.e. my immortality is a lock, viz: I can't lose my immortality with any more ease than Jesus can lose his.

    Christ also rose from the dead without sin, so then, as a joint principal in his resurrection, I'm supposed to reckon myself risen from the dead without sin.

    There's more

    Jesus is never again going to face death for iniquity. So then as his joint principal, I too will never again have to face death for iniquity.

    What can we conclude from all the above? Well; if all the above is true, then I think it's pretty obvious that we may safely conclude that Jesus' joint principals have heaven in the bag.

    It gets better.

    Jesus Christ is God's firstborn son; ergo; Jesus is God's primary heir. Incredible as it may seem; joint principals in Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection are also joint heirs with him in God's estate.

    A joint heir is much better than off than a simple heir because joint heirs inherit the entire estate as if they were all together one heir.
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    Last edited: Jul 21, 2019
  9. LoreneDD

    LoreneDD Great is Thy Faithfulness Supporter

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    Ahhh, but consider the downside of immortality! A living tree stripped of it’s branches, blackened bye the singe of the fire that passed so close to a living being. Or maybe there’s a leaf or two to cover themselves with. Or perhaps beautiful foliage of a tree well liven ... eternity.
     
  10. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Worldly wisdom teaches that in order to live, we need to put ourselves first, unavoidably depriving others of resources in the process. God’s desire, on the other hand, is for humanity to live while following through logically in taking into consideration the state of their existence and the implications regarding its source, that is its Originator/Creator, and live in acknowledgment of that information. In other words, if we feel uneasy living selfish lives, it means that it is unnatural to our being and if it is unnatural, it means that the Creator of our state desires we consider that He will provide for that which we need, in order that His desire is fulfilled.

    Luke's message:

    Acts of the Apostles 17
    26From one man He made every nation of men, to inhabit the whole earth; and He determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God intended that they would seekHim and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is notfar from each one of us.

    If a King finds his son using his strength to collect and store and protect whatever resources possible, wouldn’t it be natural for him to enlighten him about the abundant resources available for that child, obviating the need for living a self serving lifestyle? And if that son could be taught about his need to gather in lost children who could also have access to those resources, wouldn’t that information also be conveyed? The Gospel message, that is sent in Scripture, is that the Way to gather the lost children has been granted, just as Moses was granted a Way to gather the children of God from Egypt. He would go out on a limb (pick up a cross) and God would save (resurrect the one who put himself at risk):

    Exodus 4
    1Then Moses answered, “What if they refuse to believe me or listen to my voice? For they may say, ‘The LORD has not appeared to you.’”

    2And the LORD asked him, “What is that in your hand?”

    “A staff,” he replied.

    3“Throw it on the ground,” said the Lord. So Moses threw it on the ground, and it became a snake, and he ran from it.

    4“Stretch out your hand and grab it by the tail,” the LORD said to Moses. So he reached out his hand and caught the snake, and it turned back into a staff in his hand. 5“This is so that they may believe that the LORD, the God of their fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has appeared to you.”

    Deuteronomy 18
    15The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him.

    1 Corinthians 10
    3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the samespiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

    John's message:

    John 6
    26Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.27“Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.” 28Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” 30So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? 31“Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.’” 32Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33“For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.” 34Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”

    35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.

    Eat bread from Heaven. Christ is metonymy, for "pick up your cross, so that other may see God's great work in resurrecting, and also live"
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
  11. WebersHome

    WebersHome Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
  12. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Being a Christian is like being a light switch which has two positions: on or off.

    You are either for God or against God. Serving self or serving Him. Gathering or scattering. The last being a tangible manifestation of the marks of a Christian. How are you gathering?
     
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