Did you really choose God…

[Neogaia777]

My point is to demonstrate a logical contradiction. Does God have a sovereign plan for the universe? If so, wouldn’t that plan include who is a believer and who is not? Which means our name is either already on God’s guest list for the big eternal banquet, or it’s not. Who’s invited is part of the host’s plan. We might think we can choose to invite ourselves, because the invitations go out in so many unexpected ways and times. But if the host truly has absolute sovereignty over the attendance, then we have no choice in the matter. And it’s illogical to think that we do.

Well, I agree with you, and I'm not seeing the contradiction, maybe you could clarify...?

Do you maybe mean with other people believing in free will maybe, etc...?

Because I personally grew out of, and have fully reconciled that belief, (I feel), a long, long time ago now, etc...?

But other people are "free" (supposedly) to believe whatever they want to believe, etc... or else not believe, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Rachel20]

Here's a theory:

ALL names were written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world.
Some names will be blotted out because of sin (Exo 32:33, Rev 3:5)
Some sins will be blotted out because of a redeemer (Ps 51:9, John 1:29)
Leaving only those names in the Book that have a redeemer (because all have sinned)

I challenge anyone to find anywhere in scripture where names are added to the book. You'll only find where they're blotted out because of sin.

 

[Neogaia777]

Here's a theory:

ALL names were written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world.
Some names will be blotted out because of sin (Exo 32:33, Rev 3:5)
Some sins will be blotted out because of a redeemer (Ps 51:9, John 1:29)
Leaving only those names in the Book that have a redeemer (because all have sinned)

I challenge anyone to find anywhere in scripture where names are added to the book. You'll only find where they're blotted out because of sin.

What if some names that were previously blotted out due to sin, were added back in because some of their sins were blotted out because of a redeemer...?

God Bless!

 

[eleos1954]

or did God choose you? I’ve read a lot of posts where believers say they became Christians after having a life-changing spiritual experience of some sort. If that’s true, then becoming a Christian wasn’t really your choice. It was an act of God. By logical extension, it raises the question does anyone make a free-will decision to be a Christian? If you were born into a Christian family, raised in the church, and have been a believer your entire life, then that was also an act of God. The same would be true if you were a Christian at one time, and now have a different faith, or have become an atheist. If a deity exists, who is the ultimate universal sovereign with a plan for everyone and everything, then logically, no one’s belief—or lack thereof—is her/his own decision. It’s all God’s will.

God's will is that all come to repentance .... but that is a choice. Through Jesus mankind may restore his relationship with God ..... but it is a choice to do so.

Jesus provided the way ..... but does not force anyone to follow Him.

2 Peter 3:9
AMPC
The Lord does not delay and is not tardy or slow about what He promises, according to some people’s conception of slowness, but He is long-suffering (extraordinarily patient) toward you, not desiring that any should perish, but that all should turn to repentance.

John 11:25
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes (conditional/choice) in Me will live, even though he dies.

 

[Rachel20]

What if some names that were previously blotted out due to sin, were added back in because some of their sins were blotted out because of a redeemer...?

God Bless!

ha ! Good question really. But I believe names aren't blotted out until all the books are opened, and if, at that time, one is found to have a redeemer, their sins are blotted out already so that their names remain in the Book of Life.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Rev 20:12

(but this is why the challenge to show anywhere in scripture where names are added - or added back in, as you say)

 

[Neogaia777]

ha ! Good question really. But I believe names aren't blotted out until all the books are opened, and if, at that time, one is found to have a redeemer, their sins are blotted out already so that their names remain in the Book of Life.

Kind of my point really, that it is all really from a certain perspective or point of view, and that God the Father's perspective, is a rather unique one, etc...

And maybe use to differ slightly from that of the Spirit, or the Son, etc...

God Bless!

 

[jayem]

Well, I agree with you, and I'm not seeing the contradiction, maybe you could clarify!

If God is sovereign, then s(he) has decided who becomes a Christian believer and who doesn’t believe. Since people come to belief under so many different circumstances, they might think they made a free will decision to believe. But all along it was part of God’s grand plan. The logical contradiction is believing that God is sovereign, and one can become a Christian believer by one’s own choice.

 

[Blade]

Hi why ask a question when He God already answered it? "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him [giving him the desire to come to Me]; and I will raise him up [from the dead] on the last day.". So mans free choice is still there. So were talking about GOD using mans logic? Good luck with that.. oh there is no such thing as luck

Then is it not written "and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain." Yeah just guessing but seems GOD who is out side of time sees the end from the start knows the heart..the choice all will make. Well He IS in the past right now and IS in the future right now.. and is here right now.

 

[Neogaia777]

.

(but this is why the challenge to show anywhere in scripture where names are added - or added back in, as you say)

But this is exactly what happened with people in the OT, and who are still under the OT Law Covenant today, they are at first excluded, but then are re-included if they accept Jesus Christ, etc...

But from the Father God's perspective, none were ever excluded, and then re-included, or were excluded again, etc, ever at all ever, etc, to ever begin with ever at all ever, etc, for and/or because He already knew, etc, from beginning to end, etc, and from any new endings to any new beginnings at all ever, etc, or "whatever", etc, from before the foundations of the world, or whatever, etc, or from before the creation of the universe, or whatever, etc, or from before anything was ever even thought of, or was even ever made, etc...

It's a matter of perspective and/or point of view, etc...

And the Father God's is unique, or used to be, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

The one and maybe only thing the Father God could not do, as in being wholly incapable of doing it, etc, is show Himself to us without the help of the Spirit, and/or the Son, etc...

Because that is just how high He is, and always was, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Rachel20]

.
But from the Father God's perspective, none were ever excluded, and then re-included, or were excluded again, etc, ever at all ever, etc, to ever begin with ever at all ever, etc, for and/or because He already knew, etc, from beginning to end, etc, and from any new endings to any new beginnings at all ever, etc, or "whatever", etc, from before the foundations of the world, or whatever, etc, or from before the creation of the universe, or whatever, etc, or from before anything was ever even thought of, or was even ever made, etc...

Which proves the absurdity of looking at it from a time-linear view. But besides the theory I offered (which you have yet to meet the challenge), what theory do you propose where scripture can speak of predestination on the one hand, and choice on the other?

 

[Neogaia777]

Which proves the absurdity of looking at it from a time-linear view. But besides the theory I offered (which you have yet to meet the challenge), what theory do you propose where scripture can speak of predestination on the one hand, and choice on the other?

I've already tried to explain it to you, but I'll try to give you a clue, God in the OT is not the Heavenly Father God Jesus spoke of, and it's a matter of perspective and/or point of view...

God Bless!

 

[angelsaroundme]

It is either God's choice and are illusion of choice or God's choice and our choice.

 

[disciple Clint]

or did God choose you? I’ve read a lot of posts where believers say they became Christians after having a life-changing spiritual experience of some sort. If that’s true, then becoming a Christian wasn’t really your choice. It was an act of God. By logical extension, it raises the question does anyone make a free-will decision to be a Christian? If you were born into a Christian family, raised in the church, and have been a believer your entire life, then that was also an act of God. The same would be true if you were a Christian at one time, and now have a different faith, or have become an atheist. If a deity exists, who is the ultimate universal sovereign with a plan for everyone and everything, then logically, no one’s belief—or lack thereof—is her/his own decision. It’s all God’s will.

God will extend the grace to accept Jesus, but the decision to do so is up to the individual.

 

[jayem]

God will extend the grace to accept Jesus, but the decision to do so is up to the individual.

You believe that as an article of faith. But it can’t be demonstrated as an indisputable fact. In the Bible, God has directed person’s will. Exodus relates that Pharaoh was ready and willing to free the Hebrews. But God hardened his heart against emancipation—on more than one occasion—so that the plagues would continue and show God’s power over the Egyptians. How can you know that God doesn’t regularly take control of one’s will and direct one’s thinking subconsciously?

 

[Neogaia777]

You believe that as an article of faith. But it can’t be demonstrated as an indisputable fact. In the Bible, God has directed person’s will. Exodus relates that Pharaoh was ready and willing to free the Hebrews. But God hardened his heart against emancipation—on more than one occasion—so that the plagues would continue and show God’s power over the Egyptians. How can you know that God doesn’t regularly take control of one’s will and direct one’s thinking subconsciously?

God in the OT had some measure of control over His enemies choices at times, but very little control over the choices made by His own people a lot of the time...

He maybe probably thought, at that time, that showing His own people His great power, and trying to cause them all to remember it down through the generations afterwards, might have a strong enough influence over His own peoples choices, that He could dictate their path toward a better future, etc...

Trying to reverse the effects/affects of the fall or what happened in the Garden, etc...

But it just wasn't ever meant to be, etc, and there is probably a lesson for both and all in that, that maybe comes from, or originally came from, the Father, etc, who truly does/has, and always does/has, (already), dictated all, etc...

The "lesson" is still a mystery that will only be revealed "in time", etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

You believe that as an article of faith. But it can’t be demonstrated as an indisputable fact. In the Bible, God has directed person’s will. Exodus relates that Pharaoh was ready and willing to free the Hebrews. But God hardened his heart against emancipation—on more than one occasion—so that the plagues would continue and show God’s power over the Egyptians. How can you know that God doesn’t regularly take control of one’s will and direct one’s thinking subconsciously?

In Pharoahs case, he had already made his supposed choice/choices, and it was no mystery as to where he was going, so God only further hardening his heart changed very little to nothing really, etc, for he was never a very good person to begin with, and it was already in him to harden his own heart, so it changed very little to nothing really, etc...

He (God in the OT) was after changing His own people, etc...

But it just wasn't meant to be, and that was all already pre-arranged, or fore-ordained, by the Father, etc...

The real question is: "why", etc...

God Bless!

 

[disciple Clint]

You believe that as an article of faith. But it can’t be demonstrated as an indisputable fact. In the Bible, God has directed person’s will. Exodus relates that Pharaoh was ready and willing to free the Hebrews. But God hardened his heart against emancipation—on more than one occasion—so that the plagues would continue and show God’s power over the Egyptians. How can you know that God doesn’t regularly take control of one’s will and direct one’s thinking subconsciously?

"First, Pharaoh was not an innocent or godly man. He was a brutal dictator overseeing the terrible abuse and oppression of the Israelites, who likely numbered over 1.5 million people at that time. The Egyptian pharaohs had enslaved the Israelites for 400 years. A previous pharaoh—possibly even the pharaoh in question—ordered that male Israelite babies be killed at birth (Exodus 1:16). The pharaoh God hardened was an evil man, and the nation he ruled agreed with, or at least did not oppose, his evil actions.

Second, on least a couple occasions, Pharaoh hardened his own heart against letting the Israelites go: “But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart” (Exodus 8:15). “But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart” (Exodus 8:32). It seems that God and Pharaoh were both active in one way or another in the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart. As the plagues continued, God gave Pharaoh increasingly severe warnings of the final judgment to come. Pharaoh chose to bring further judgment on himself and his nation by hardening his own heart against God’s commands."
Why did God harden Pharaoh’s heart? | GotQuestions.org

 

[jayem]

"First, Pharaoh was not an innocent or godly man. He was a brutal dictator overseeing the terrible abuse and oppression of the Israelites, who likely numbered over 1.5 million people at that time. The Egyptian pharaohs had enslaved the Israelites for 400 years. A previous pharaoh—possibly even the pharaoh in question—ordered that male Israelite babies be killed at birth (Exodus 1:16). The pharaoh God hardened was an evil man, and the nation he ruled agreed with, or at least did not oppose, his evil actions.

Second, on least a couple occasions, Pharaoh hardened his own heart against letting the Israelites go: “But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart” (Exodus 8:15). “But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart” (Exodus 8:32). It seems that God and Pharaoh were both active in one way or another in the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart. As the plagues continued, God gave Pharaoh increasingly severe warnings of the final judgment to come. Pharaoh chose to bring further judgment on himself and his nation by hardening his own heart against God’s commands."
Why did God harden Pharaoh’s heart? | GotQuestions.org

As I’m sure you know, there are varying exegeses of those verses. But that’s tangential to my main point. Which is that if God exists, and is truly the absolute, apex universal sovereign, then nothing can happen that’s not in accord with his grand plan for all of our lives and for the universe as a whole. And those plans would, of necessity, include who is a believer and who is not. So if one never comes to believe in God, the logical conclusion is that God intended it that way.

 

[Saucy]

I think God reaches out to everyone all the time. Every day there are multiple opportunities. He is not willing that ANY should perish. I became a Christian after God spoke to me. It was after Christmas the year I turned 19 and my stepbrother (at the time) and I were watching a movie and I heard God speak to me out of the blue. It wasn't "my" voice, but the voice of another and it sent me on a spiritual journey to find the truth.

I considered myself an atheist, but I must admit, any time I was out in nature, going for walks, I just sensed the presence of God around me. I even talked to Him. But...I was an atheist? I looked at Wicca and other spiritual things. A friend offered to take me to church with him, and at first, I declined. I didn't want to be a Christian nor was I ready to believe in God. My friend persisted and I finally went and the rest is history. I found God!

I think God created and designed me for a purpose and He reached out to me when it was time to call me into the faith and into His service. I don't want to say I lost my faith, but after my dad passed, my faith was far from me. I wasn't a good person and made a lot of horrible mistakes. I hit rock bottom, was addicted to painkillers and didn't think I'd ever step foot in a church again.

Now I'm completely healed and changed and aspiring to be a pastor. God came back to me and found me when I was at my lowest. It's like that painting...God is always fully extended, reaching towards us, but we must be willing to reach out the rest of the way.