Did you read Genesis One?

[Dannager]

Hmmm, I suppose I can agree with that.

 

[KerrMetric]

Hmmm, I suppose I can agree with that.

One of my tutors at university was a former C of E minister and he used to discuss this quite often. As he said - contrary to the usual fundamentalist language - God doesn't need to be all powerful but just powerful enough, he doesn't need to be all knowing but just to know enough. Of course this kind of debate drives the fundamentalists crazy as they cannot accept anything but God is infinite statements - a simplistic approach for a simplistic faith IMO.

 

[shernren]

Uh-oh. I don't think my train goes as far as Open Theism.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The best metaphor in the bible about God's omnscience is the account of Noah being violated by Canaan. "When he saw what his (grandson) had done.......(Lot's of meanings in this story.)

God only realized what Lucifer had done afterwards. He had no reason before the rebellion to know everything the angels were doing. Afterwards, of course, God makes it a point to know what's going on everywhere.

 

[The Lady Kate]

The best metaphor in the bible about God's omnscience is the account of Noah being violated by Canaan. "When he saw what his (grandson) had done.......(Lot's of meanings in this story.)

God only realized what Lucifer had done afterwards. He had no reason before the rebellion to know everything the angels were doing. Afterwards, of course, God makes it a point to know what's going on everywhere.

The theological problem with that is that it mean that, for lack of a better term... God screwed up.

Lucifer was able to get away with it because God wasn't keeping an eye on things. That tosses out any possibility of God never making a mistake... and opens up all of His other actions to some hard questioning.


Are we sure we want to remove the premise of God being infallible from our faith?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The theological problem with that is that it mean that, for lack of a better term... God screwed up.

Lucifer was able to get away with it because God wasn't keeping an eye on things. That tosses out any possibility of God never making a mistake... and opens up all of His other actions to some hard questioning.


Are we sure we want to remove the premise of God being infallible from our faith?

God didn't make a mistake, as the concept of 'mistake' didn't exist. And Lucifer didn't get away with it. Like Noah after God realized what had happened he first created and then imputed 'sin' to the act of rebellion against Him. Prior to the rebellion there was no sin. God fashioned (created) his response to the rebellion by creating this 'divine comedy' if you will. There was no good and evil, correct or incorrect, mistakes, anger, jealousy, deceit, dishonor, disrespect, etc. until God brought these concepts into being. Every emotion and attitude humans experience is part of God's response/plan/purpose for punishing/replacing Lucifer/Satan, perfecting the saints, and restoring the kingdom.

 

[bullietdodger]

First off this is the wrong thread for this discussion, but anyway, after the quote I have listed the corrections to the claim.

How many scriptures do you need? God's omniscience is misunderstood. There are many statements where God reveals that he has limited knowledge about the activities of men. Genesis 6:5-7; 11:5-7; 18:21; 22:12; 2 Chron. 16:9; Zech. 4:10; Job 12:22; Jer. 17:10; Ezek. 11:3 and there are many more.

The thing to know is that there is no statement in the bible that says that God knows, or even would like to know, all acts and events of all his vast creations.

God does have many messengers and delegates to oversee and accomplish his purposes in the earth. Actually he uses angels to record our statements, which we will be judged by.

This is a gross miss use of Scripture.
The following passages do not mention anything about God's knowledge: Genesis 6:5-7;11:5-7; 11:5-7;
The person speaking to Abraham in Gen 22:12 is not God, it is the Angel of the Lord.
2 Chron. 16:9 is evidence that God sees all things.
Zech. 4:10 Again, this verse confirms God sees all things.
Job 12:22 says nothing about this topic.
Jer. 17:10 This verse talks about God knowing our intentions. This doesn't mean that He doesn't know, it means He is able to see what is in your heart, our intention.
Ezek. 11:3 Again, this context has nothing to do with God's knowledge.

I am skeptical of your "many more" references since these ones do not support your idea. Actually some of them prove the opposite.

 

[tjnesbitt]

First off this is the wrong thread for this discussion, but anyway, after the quote I have listed the corrections to the claim.



This is a gross miss use of Scripture.
The following passages do not mention anything about God's knowledge: Genesis 6:5-7;11:5-7; 11:5-7;
The person speaking to Abraham in Gen 22:12 is not God, it is the Angel of the Lord.
2 Chron. 16:9 is evidence that God sees all things.
Zech. 4:10 Again, this verse confirms God sees all things.
Job 12:22 says nothing about this topic.
Jer. 17:10 This verse talks about God knowing our intentions. This doesn't mean that He doesn't know, it means He is able to see what is in your heart, our intention.
Ezek. 11:3 Again, this context has nothing to do with God's knowledge.

I am skeptical of your "many more" references since these ones do not support your idea. Actually some of them prove the opposite.

"First off this is the wrong thread for this discussion"

I apologize if this is the wrong "thread" I did not start it but since it was here, ....I sewed with it!

Gross miss use of Scripture? I guess anything that is in scripture that goes contrary to "traditional views" could be viewed that way. Just because this may go against your long held views does not mean it is a "gross miss use of scripture."

Genesis 6:5-6 states; "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."

Hmmm... God saw? According to your traditional way of thinking this does not make any sense because God would have "known" and to "see" it would not have "grieved him." Instead it would have been expected. Yet in this scripture it not only tells us that when God saw it God was grieved, but also that God changed his mind because of what he saw! "REPENTED" MEANS TO CHANGE YOUR MIND!

If you wish, we can review each of these scriptures like this.

 

[tjnesbitt]

Well geez, does this mean that God isn't omnipotent? I guess one could make the argument that God doesn't keep tabs on the whole world simply because he chooses not to, but I can't see any other way that God could avoid omniscience and still remain omnipotent.

Actually the bible also teaches that there are things that God can not do. Because of that, I don't think of God as less than omnipotent. Actually, Jesus did not say that God can do anything. He said that "with God all things are possible." There is a huge difference in those two statements.

 

[shernren]

Well, can we take it to the right thread?

 

[w00dy]

one idea that science offers about how life came about is to do with clay being compacted (does this sound like adam?) i just think you can draw intersting parralles with science (the search for truth) and the word of god (obviously the truth), the thing is though when jesus spoke to teach us something he used stories (my personal theory to why he did this so maybe we would open our eyes and to keep it vauge enough so that those who didnt want to hear the message wouldn't), why should it be any different back before the man we know as jesus? that would imply god didn't/doesn't know what would/will happen. tbh i dont care how it all started (interesting side note you can get the same reactions as in the heart of a sun by passing sound waves through aceitone - or so ive read somewhere) the fact of the matter is i'm here now and ive got to get on with it

 

[w00dy]

Actually the bible also teaches that there are things that God can not do. Because of that, I don't think of God as less than omnipotent. Actually, Jesus did not say that God can do anything. He said that "with God all things are possible." There is a huge difference in those two statements.

it "feels" to me that god can do anything - it also "feels" to me that he plays by the rules, yes they are his rules, i hear you say, so if he wants to he can do anything - i just doubt he'd cheat

edited typo

 

[tjnesbitt]

it "feels" to me that god can do anything - it also "feels" to me that he plays by the rules, yes they are his rules, i hear you say, so if he wants to he can do anything - i just doubt he'd cheat

edited typo

His rules! Great way to state it. Off the top of my head I can think of four things the bible says that God is not able to do; not lie, deny himself, be tempted with evil and / or change. So when God says something it is.

 

[w00dy]

i was struggling coming up with a counter statement to your poisition on the lords abillities - not because i think you are right or wrong, but because (i realise now-2days later) this is the first time ive ever debated the meaning of scripture with a fellow believer (and thank you for that i think its a good thing like the disicple under the tree). its not a case to trying to stear your thoughts toward jesus (i can see you are allready walking that path).

in all honesty i think it matters not our deffinition of the statement "with god all things are possible". it is the lords who each should be mindfull of. - and furthermore we could be treading on dangerous ground by arguing the symantics of the wording - we should remeber "Unless the righteousness of conduct found in you surpasses that found in the experts in the law and the Pharisees, you will never gain entry into the kingdom of heaven" and just believe that "with god all things are possible" and be credited with righteousness the way abraham was

 

[tjnesbitt]

i was struggling coming up with a counter statement to your poisition on the lords abillities - not because i think you are right or wrong, but because (i realise now-2days later) this is the first time ive ever debated the meaning of scripture with a fellow believer (and thank you for that i think its a good thing like the disicple under the tree). its not a case to trying to stear your thoughts toward jesus (i can see you are allready walking that path).

in all honesty i think it matters not our deffinition of the statement "with god all things are possible". it is the lords who each should be mindfull of. - and furthermore we could be treading on dangerous ground by arguing the symantics of the wording - we should remeber "Unless the righteousness of conduct found in you surpasses that found in the experts in the law and the Pharisees, you will never gain entry into the kingdom of heaven" and just believe that "with god all things are possible" and be credited with righteousness the way abraham was

In the new testament there are two statements that are made by Jesus that sound a lot alike. They are:

• 1st, in Matthew 19:26 Jesus said; "With God all things are possible."
• 2nd, in Mark 9:23 Jesus said; "If you can believe, all things are possible to him that believes."

Many people think that since Jesus said "with God all things are possible" it means that God is able to do anything. Jesus did not say that God is able to do anything!

In Fact, these are two different statements and they mean two totally different things as seen by my previous post.

 

[w00dy]

the two sentances have the same meaning

"with god all things are possible" is exactly the same as "god is able to do anything" even with decontextualising the former and without the latter having to explain mans' failings

its just a pretty way of puting it. dont forget jesus said said let your yes be yes and your no be no. whether he would choose to do something (such as call death his master, aka the devil tempting jesus) is a different matter

i personally believe that my above mentioned bracketed example is a question of choice used help people like me and thee lead our lifes - i mean imagine a world where jesus had said yeah ok devil lets kick butt with my army of folks who i can bring back from the dead and who have unlimited supplies of food - after a bit it wouldnt take long to become the oppressors of life than the defenders of it - look at, well any, successfull violent revolution in the history of the world (yes even the american one) no matter how bad the lifes of the subjdicated or at the time, worthy the cause