Did you read Genesis One?

[OldWiseGuy]

No, actually John described the evolution of locusts, as it will happen before the end time. Why exactly should the end time rather be now than any other time?

- FreezBee

Those 'locusts' better get started evolving. They got a long way to go.

1And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.


2And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

3And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

4And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

5And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

6And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

7And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.

8And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.

9And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

10And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
11And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

The 'last day' is today. If things continue til tomorrow that will the last day, and the next, etc. TODAY is always the last day.

oldwiseguy

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That doesn't take care of the half-dozen other references where it is not a simile. Not to mention the extra-biblical references.

The idea that the sky is not made of some sort of solid material is only as recent as Copernicus.

Maybe some nitwits in a religious, or scientific, ivory tower actually believed the sky was solid. I'm sure most didn't, as they could see clouds moving and birds flying through it, as well as feel it as the wind blew. At night they could see through it up to the moon and stars.

There's a lot of baloney written about 'what people believed'. I'll bet the common people back then wasn't even aware of 'what they believed'.

oldwiseguy

 

[tjnesbitt]

My point is that based on the confusion over what is described in Gen. One few have bothered to actually study it, instead repeating the misinterpretations of others.

For example verse one states: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." (KJV) Heaven is singular here, but many other translations read "heavens', plural. The chapter then goes on to describe exactly what this singular 'heaven' is: the atmosphere where birds fly, clouds gather, rain falls, and we breath.

The earth does not refer to the globe upon which he placed the 'earth', called 'dry land' in verse 9. but is the living soil from which all organic life would spring, watered by rain and dew continually purified by the distilling process of the water cycle created in the 'firmament' of the heaven and so described.

When this was ready land creatures and man were formed. Genesis One is the account of God 'preparing a place' for us, a living metaphor of things past and future, but completely accurate in it's literal meaning.

All other interpretations are confused by the scientific fact of a very old substrate of dead rock, with their ancient fossils, upon which God created the living heaven and earth.

oldwiseguy

I find that the bible speaks of three heaven"s". (see 2nd Corinthians 12:2) Genesis 1:1 addresses only one of them. In fact according to Job and Jeremiah one heaven was already in existence when the heaven of Genesis 1:1 is created at the same time the earth is made. The final heaven is created in Genesis 1:6-8.

If the teachings of Job and Jeremiah are accurate (which they are) then the fact that the earth is about 4 ½ billion years old and the universe, otherwise known as the heavens referred to by both Jeremiah and Job, is approximately 14 billion years old. This is all accurate according to scripture and according to today's astronomy.

Neat!

The big misunderstanding is what is meant when the word "beginning" is used in Genesis 1:1. It has been understood as meaning the beginning of the universe. A careful study reveals that it is the beginning of the age we now live in which is best referred to as the age of heaven and earth.

The age of heaven and earth began in Genesis 1:1 when both were created and will conclude in Revelation 21:5. That is when a new age will begin.

 

[gluadys]

Maybe some nitwits in a religious, or scientific, ivory tower actually believed the sky was solid.

You never read pre-Copernican science? It wasn't just a few nitwits. It was the dominant view of all natural philosophers (what we would call scientists) and theologians in Europe and the Muslim world as well. This is the view upheld by the Catholic church when they condemned Galileo. It was also upheld by both Calvin and Luther.

I'm sure most didn't, as they could see clouds moving and birds flying through it, as well as feel it as the wind blew.

All of these occurred in the atmosphere enclosed by the firmament.

At night they could see through it up to the moon and stars.

The moon and the stars and the sun as well, were imbedded in the firmament. They were not surrounded by space, but by the solid structure of the firmament.

There's a lot of baloney written about 'what people believed'. I'll bet the common people back then wasn't even aware of 'what they believed'.

This is pretty well documented in several millennia of ancient astronomical texts as well as in popular astrology and literature of the time. The common people did understand Shakespeare's allusions to the Ptolemaic cosmos. And much earlier, Romans understood similar references in Virgil's Aeneid. And, of course, the Hebrews understood their scriptures.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Does any of our knowledge of the sky/ atmosphere/ firmament today conflict with what was written in GenOne?

oldwiseguy

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I agree with most of what you present. I do think however, that:

1. The Third Heaven, the location of the throne of God, and the spiritual Kingdom of God, always existed.

2. The second heaven is the material universe, stars, plantets, moons, etc. including earth, and was the first material creation of God.

3. The firmament/sky/atmosphere of Genesis one was created last.

oldwiseguy

 

[shernren]

Does any of our knowledge of the sky/ atmosphere/ firmament today conflict with what was written in GenOne?

As Russell Humphreys of AiG has pointed out, for Gen 1's "firmament" to be scientifically consistent it has to be taken to encompass the whole of outer space. Now, Gen 1 says that there is a layer of water above the firmament. Given that space has only had 6,000 years to expand, I'd imagine that layer of (by now) ice would have been observed in some way, through CMB, radio, or even direct optical observation.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

You never read pre-Copernican science? It wasn't just a few nitwits. It was the dominant view of all natural philosophers (what we would call scientists) and theologians in Europe and the Muslim world as well. This is the view upheld by the Catholic church when they condemned Galileo. It was also upheld by both Calvin and Luther.




All of these occurred in the atmosphere enclosed by the firmament.




The moon and the stars and the sun as well, were imbedded in the firmament. They were not surrounded by space, but by the solid structure of the firmament.




This is pretty well documented in several millennia of ancient astronomical texts as well as in popular astrology and literature of the time. The common people did understand Shakespeare's allusions to the Ptolemaic cosmos. And much earlier, Romans understood similar references in Virgil's Aeneid. And, of course, the Hebrews understood their scriptures.

You're making my case for me. The intellectual elite declared their opinions to be fact. If the uneducated accepted them it's no surprise. Today such conclusions are laughable, but understandable, as those eggheads sincerely wanted to know these things, but had limited means of discovery.

But I don't think you can ignore the ignorance of those bible scholars either. I think bad science was matched equally by bad interpretation of scripture. Today I think bad has been replaced by dishonest.

As a TE I think you are trying to establish a bridge between the obviously old earth and the present one. The stumbling block of course is the bible and Genesis One in particular. In its condition of utter destruction no air breathing life forms crossed that bridge. If evolution existed it ended there.

The only change taking place today is a devolution. We are less able to live harmoniously in either our environment, or with our fellow man. Just as is prophesied.

oldwiseguy

 

[OldWiseGuy]

As Russell Humphreys of AiG has pointed out, for Gen 1's "firmament" to be scientifically consistent it has to be taken to encompass the whole of outer space. Now, Gen 1 says that there is a layer of water above the firmament. Given that space has only had 6,000 years to expand, I'd imagine that layer of (by now) ice would have been observed in some way, through CMB, radio, or even direct optical observation.

Gen. 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

The Hebrew word heaven used here can mean any of the three heavens.

Therefore this verse can read:

"And God set them in the expanse of the abode of the stars to give light upon the earth."

The sun and moon obviously were not placed in the same firmament of heaven that the birds flew in. Sheeeez!

The division of the waters above from those below is a living metaphor of separating the clean from the unclean, through the distillation process. This is called the water cycle, which returns all water back to earth in a purified form.

Although there may well be water in outer space. Comets are believed to contain ice.

oldwiseguy

 

[gluadys]

You're making my case for me. The intellectual elite declared their opinions to be fact.

Well since only the intellectual elite were literate, it follows that the intellectual elite wrote the bible, and wrote it from the perspective that the firmament is a solid tent-like or dome-like structure above our heads. This is the only POV consistent with every scriptural passage on the structure of the cosmos.

Today such conclusions are laughable, but understandable, as those eggheads sincerely wanted to know these things, but had limited means of discovery.

Sure, the scientific conclusions are laughable due to the limited means of discovery, but you are still forgetting that those ancient eggheads were the inspired eggheads to whom we owe the Holy Scriptures.

As a TE I think you are trying to establish a bridge between the obviously old earth and the present one. The stumbling block of course is the bible and Genesis One in particular. In its condition of utter destruction no air breathing life forms crossed that bridge. If evolution existed it ended there.

I would certainly need to see some physical evidence of such utter destruction. Gap theory was seldom accepted by any more than a handful of Christian interpreters even well before evolution became an issue. Since Gen. One is capable of other interpretations, it is incumbent on gap theorists to explain why their interpretation is better than others. The lack of physical evidence is, for me, a rather large objection to gap theory.

In this respect, it is rather like flood theory. If such utter destruction destroyed all life on earth, one should be able to point to the geological evidence that it happened at such and such a date. One should be able to clearly identify what part of the geological column preceded the destruction and what part was formed later.

The only change taking place today is a devolution. We are less able to live harmoniously in either our environment, or with our fellow man. Just as is prophesied.

1. Evolution is about change in all species, not just humans. Though we do see changes in humans too.

2. Evolution is not about how we live with one another as neighbours (or not). Prophecy doesn't interact with evolution. OTOH, I would agree that we are affecting the evolution of other species on this planet--mostly negatively. But it is not because we are less able to live harmoniously with the environment. It's because we are too greedy to do so. It's sin, not devolution.

 

[FreezBee]

3And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

4And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

5And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

6And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

7And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.

8And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.

9And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

10And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
11And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

And all this sounds as a description of modern day attach helicopters to you?

The 'last day' is today. If things continue til tomorrow that will the last day, and the next, etc. TODAY is always the last day.

No, today is always the FIRST day - yesterday was the LAST day.


- FreezBee

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Well since only the intellectual elite were literate, it follows that the intellectual elite wrote the bible, and wrote it from the perspective that the firmament is a solid tent-like or dome-like structure above our heads. This is the only POV consistent with every scriptural passage on the structure of the cosmos.

The bible writers were quided by the Holy Spirit. Whether they were were intellectuals is unknown. Based on what we know them of they were not.


Sure, the scientific conclusions are laughable due to the limited means of discovery, but you are still forgetting that those ancient eggheads were the inspired eggheads to whom we owe the Holy Scriptures.

I agree.



I would certainly need to see some physical evidence of such utter destruction. Gap theory was seldom accepted by any more than a handful of Christian interpreters even well before evolution became an issue. Since Gen. One is capable of other interpretations, it is incumbent on gap theorists to explain why their interpretation is better than others. The lack of physical evidence is, for me, a rather large objection to gap theory.

I am not a gap theorist. I stated that the 'gap' was our ignorance of the prehistoric world, which I believe existed.

The evidence you seek is right before you. Remove the restoration of the surface of the earh of GenOne, including the atmosphere and you would have a lifeless, colorless scene of utter destruction on the surface of earth, similiar to the surface of the moon.

In this respect, it is rather like flood theory. If such utter destruction destroyed all life on earth, one should be able to point to the geological evidence that it happened at such and such a date. One should be able to clearly identify what part of the geological column preceded the destruction and what part was formed later.

It is the nature of floods to deposit evidence and also to wash it away. The larger the flood the less evidence of it. Floods also uproot and rearrange things. The flood of Noah was really two events in one. The first flood was the 'inwash' which prevailed for six months. The 'outwash' of the receding water is another flood altogether. Between the two much of the surface of the earth was rearranged.

Further, any geologist will tell you that 'the movement of water' has been the single most important shaper of the topography of the earth, with the exception of tectonic plate upheaval. This 'shaping' is recorded on all the land area of earth. You would think scientists could add two and two and come up with four. They don't. The arrive at five, or seven, or 2 and a half. You get the picture.

1. Evolution is about change in all species, not just humans. Though we do see changes in humans too.


2. Evolution is not about how we live with one another as neighbours (or not). Prophecy doesn't interact with evolution. OTOH, I would agree that we are affecting the evolution of other species on this planet--mostly negatively. But it is not because we are less able to live harmoniously with the environment. It's because we are too greedy to do so. It's sin, not devolution.

I was using the term devolution metaphorically to describe the downward spiral of human morality.

oldwiseguy

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I was using the term devolution metaphorically to describe the downward spiral of human morality.

oldwiseguy

.

 

[tjnesbitt]

I agree with most of what you present. I do think however, that:

1. The Third Heaven, the location of the throne of God, and the spiritual Kingdom of God, always existed.

2. The second heaven is the material universe, stars, plantets, moons, etc. including earth, and was the first material creation of God.

3. The firmament/sky/atmosphere of Genesis one was created last.

oldwiseguy

We agree that the firmament /sky was the last heaven made. That only leaves two heavens to determine which one was created at the same time the earth was created in Genesis 1:1. According to both Job and the writer of Psalms, God was in the "north" when he created the earth. I conclude that the heaven and earth that were created in Genesis 1:1, at the same time, are similar places. This makes sense since God created man in his image and like him. Since that is so then the place where God lives must be similar to the place where we live. Also, there are 156 verses that speak of both heaven and earth. They were created at the same time and will be changed at the same time in Revelation 21.

 

[tjnesbitt]

We agree that the firmament /sky was the last heaven made. That only leaves two heavens to determine which one was created at the same time the earth was created in Genesis 1:1. According to both Job and the writer of Psalms, God was in the "north" when he created the earth. I conclude that the heaven and earth that were created in Genesis 1:1, at the same time, are similar places. This makes sense since God created man in his image and like him. Since that is so then the place where God lives must be similar to the place where we live. Also, there are 156 verses that speak of both heaven and earth. They were created at the same time and will be changed at the same time in Revelation 21.

 

[gluadys]

The bible writers were quided by the Holy Spirit. Whether they were were intellectuals is unknown. Based on what we know them of they were not.

In a society where less than 2% of the population is literate, anyone who can read or write is, by definition, part of the intellectual elite. That is not a bar to being guided by the Holy Spirit.

The evidence you seek is right before you. Remove the restoration of the surface of the earh of GenOne, including the atmosphere and you would have a lifeless, colorless scene of utter destruction on the surface of earth, similiar to the surface of the moon.

And about 4 billion years ago that would accurately describe the surface of the earth. Except that it was not the result of destruction, but of the initial phase of the creation of the earth before any life existed.

If you want to posit a subsequent destruction that destroyed all life, I would like to see the evidence for it. Not that we haven't come close sometimes. About 2.3 billion years ago we had a "snowball earth" which destroyed most living species of the time and possibly another one about 750 million years ago. And much more recently, only about 250 million years ago we had the Permian mass extinction which is estimated to have destroyed 98% of all species then living.

But close as each of these came to destoying all life, none of them completely wiped life off the earth.


As to the flood, there is no disputing that there have been many floods some of them regionally catastrophic. But no flood which covered the whole globe all at the same time. You might like to check out posts 26-28 of this thread for some of the evidence that Noah's flood could not have been global.

I was using the term devolution metaphorically to describe the downward spiral of human morality.

oldwiseguy

That's fine then. Biologically, it has no meaning at all.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

In a society where less than 2% of the population is literate, anyone who can read or write is, by definition, part of the intellectual elite. That is not a bar to being guided by the Holy Spirit.

Being literate and even highly educated doesn't necessarily get you into to the elite intellectual circle. Paul was certainly all of this but was definitely not a part of the intellectual elite of his day.



And about 4 billion years ago that would accurately describe the surface of the earth. Except that it was not the result of destruction, but of the initial phase of the creation of the earth before any life existed.

The surface of the earth is in chaos today, just under a thin layer that appears quite orderly. Nothing in recent geological history accounts for this condition. Things don't go from disorder to order, they go the other way. It's a law a physics. You are still struggling bring old earth species into the world of Gods renewal to give credibility to the theory of evolution. To do this honestly you must expunge Genesis 1:2 from the bible, or somehow change its obvious meaning.

If you want to posit a subsequent destruction that destroyed all life, I would like to see the evidence for it. Not that we haven't come close sometimes. About 2.3 billion years ago we had a "snowball earth" which destroyed most living species of the time and possibly another one about 750 million years ago. And much more recently, only about 250 million years ago we had the Permian mass extinction which is estimated to have destroyed 98% of all species then living.

But close as each of these came to destoying all life, none of them completely wiped life off the earth.

Of course some life had to survive: if the theory of evolution is to survive.

As to the flood, there is no disputing that there have been many floods some of them regionally catastrophic. But no flood which covered the whole globe all at the same time. You might like to check out posts 26-28 of this thread for some of the evidence that Noah's flood could not have been global.

Nothing in those posts but opinion and rhetoric.

You cannot have a massive flood in one region, with no containing structure, and not have it in adjacent regions flooded as well.

That's fine then. Biologically, it has no meaning at all.

Never really said it did.

oldwiseguy

 

[OldWiseGuy]

[

 

[OldWiseGuy]

We agree that the firmament /sky was the last heaven made. That only leaves two heavens to determine which one was created at the same time the earth was created in Genesis 1:1. According to both Job and the writer of Psalms, God was in the "north" when he created the earth. I conclude that the heaven and earth that were created in Genesis 1:1, at the same time, are similar places. This makes sense since God created man in his image and like him. Since that is so then the place where God lives must be similar to the place where we live. Also, there are 156 verses that speak of both heaven and earth. They were created at the same time and will be changed at the same time in Revelation 21.

Isaiah 14:13
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Lucifer is ascending from the earth, of the second heaven,which was created along with the rest of the material universe, into the third heaven of Gods throne, to which he still had access.

Invisible and located in the northern sky above the earth was Gods throne in the third heaven from which he looked down at the earth.

God also calls the earth his footstool. Not that he places his feet upon it, but that he sits above it, viewing it closely as the favorite object of his attention. Any other position would not place God above the earth, a position of dominance and authority.

 

[gluadys]

Being literate and even highly educated doesn't necessarily get you into to the elite intellectual circle. Paul was certainly all of this but was definitely not a part of the intellectual elite of his day.

Sure he was. You have any idea how few people had the privilege of studying under Gamaliel as Paul did? And he was a darling of the Sanhedrin too. They gave him charge of execution of Stephen and other martyrs in Jerusalem and authority to go to Damascus.

The surface of the earth is in chaos today, just under a thin layer that appears quite orderly.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Things don't go from disorder to order, they go the other way. It's a law a physics.

This sounds like the old cliche of the 2nd law of thermodynamics being wrenched out of context. If it isn't, you will have to clarify.

You are still struggling bring old earth species into the world of Gods renewal to give credibility to the theory of evolution. To do this honestly you must expunge Genesis 1:2 from the bible, or somehow change its obvious meaning.

Evolution is science and is validated scientifically, not theologically. The bible says nothing about evolution. Why should it when none of the writers knew anything more about it than they knew of the real nature of the planets?

It is your choice whether you choose to interpret the bible in such a way that it contradicts the reality which God created. Personally, I don't find that a good option.

Of course some life had to survive: if the theory of evolution is to survive.

And to account for the physical traces of said life.

Nothing in those posts but opinion and rhetoric.

And a lot of hands-on experience. I suggest you read Morton's biography. http://home.entouch.net/dmd/auth.htm

You cannot have a massive flood in one region, with no containing structure, and not have it in adjacent regions flooded as well.

So? Who said otherwise?