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Frogster

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Did you know that the natural / carnal man cannot submit to God's Torah!


I wonder what this means about the spirit-filled believer!


Steve
Did you know???

Oh, just read my siggy about the torah!
 
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Did you know that the natural / carnal man cannot submit to God's Torah!

I wonder what this means about the spirit-filled believer!
Steve
Wow...if Israel of old couldn't do it and even though we have an advantage in that we have the Holy Spirit residing within us, I still don't think that it would be something that I would really like to try.
 
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Frogster

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Did you know that the natural / carnal man cannot submit to God's Torah!


I wonder what this means about the spirit-filled believer!


Steve
The OT folks did not know what we know....

Heb 1:1 WHEN IN FORMER TIMES God spoke to our forefathers, he spoke in fragmentary and varied fashion through the prophets.
 
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geetrue

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If flesh and blood can not inherit the Kingdom of heaven then what can?

Holy, Holy, Holy be ye Holy even as I am Holy says the Lord

If we foul up and I usually do, as the day goes by, we have the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit to remind us of our commitment to follow after Him (Jesus).

It's this constant battle to strive for the narrow gate that keeps us sharper for the days of service to Him in heaven. We are already suppose to know the rules by the time we get there.

The only excuse we have left is forgive me Lord for I am weak and you are strong.

Many people think that when they die they go to heaven, but they don't really go any where.
The Holy Spirit does ... He goes back to heaven from which He came.

If we are lucky He takes our personality with Him
 

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Gregory Thompson

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God's law is in heaven, the Mosaic law was a cultural representation of that law at the time of Moses, the copy of this law became embodied in the person of Jesus Christ.

On the cross Jesus ratified the new era and replaced the function of the law, because his embodiment of it surpassed the shifting sands of culture. See also James' discourse on the more perfect law of liberty.
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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Matt 5:18 said:
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Until heaven and earth disappear....hmmm, where is it we're living now? Our church leaders have taught us such lies, right in the face of what is actually written, and then we continue on in telling the lies to others.

Matthew 7:21-23 said:
21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Many claim to believe in Jesus, yet refuse and even mock what He said.



 
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geetrue

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Church is where you have fellowship with like minded people on their way to heaven.
My church doesn't lie, but in hindsight of the old phony revival days of about seven years ago there were churches lying about this is a move of God and if it was just man nothing would come of it.

Nothing came of it except for a lot of money changing hands.

Jesus said feed my sheep feed my lambs ... check in and see if the group your in is being fed.

If not then move on ... sort of like sheep needing new pasture, uh?
 
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Did you know that the natural / carnal man cannot submit to God's Torah!


I wonder what this means about the spirit-filled believer!


Steve

Actually for a born-again believer, the natural/carnal man is dead. God killed him when He crucified him with Christ and buried him in the tomb. Christ rose from the dead, but the natural/carnal man was not resurrected. That is why the scripture tells us to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to Christ. The new man in Christ is totally righteous and acceptable to God, and cannot sin. If sin is still an issue with God, then Jesus did not pay the full price for it, and God did not pour out all His anger, wrath, and indignation on Him. If you don't agree then I would ask you, "Was Jesus punished enough?" The Torah was totally fulfilled in Christ, and those who are in Christ operate and live according to the fruit of the Spirit and those who do make the laws in the Torah obsolete.
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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Actually for a born-again believer, the natural/carnal man is dead. God killed him when He crucified him with Christ and buried him in the tomb. Christ rose from the dead, but the natural/carnal man was not resurrected. That is why the scripture tells us to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to Christ. The new man in Christ is totally righteous and acceptable to God, and cannot sin. If sin is still an issue with God, then Jesus did not pay the full price for it, and God did not pour out all His anger, wrath, and indignation on Him. If you don't agree then I would ask you, "Was Jesus punished enough?" The Torah was totally fulfilled in Christ, and those who are in Christ operate and live according to the fruit of the Spirit and those who do make the laws in the Torah obsolete.
Matt 5:18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Fulfilled meant "living it out, not ending it", plus since we're still alive and well on planet earth, the instructions of God are not dead and done away with nor has everything been accomplished. That's what Jesus said anyway. Of course what Jesus came to do here on earth He accomplished, but since we're still here and waiting for His return, not ALL His plans have been accomplished (played out here on earth) yet.


We are still instructed to "not let sin reign in our bodies" and he says that right after he says "consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God". (Romans 6:11-12) The whole chapter is good though. :)
 
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ToBeLoved

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Until heaven and earth disappear....hmmm, where is it we're living now? Our church leaders have taught us such lies, right in the face of what is actually written, and then we continue on in telling the lies to others.



Many claim to believe in Jesus, yet refuse and even mock what He said.



What are you exactly trying to say?
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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What are you exactly trying to say?
I'm saying what Jesus said in regards to the Torah being done and gone...In Matthew 5:18 He said, "until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished". Therefore, since we are still living on the earth, it's obviously NOT passed away yet, that means that the law has not passed away either. He also added that those who break the laws (God's laws, not Jewish laws) and teach others to break the laws too would be considered the least in heaven. It does not say they won't be in heaven just that they will be considered the least. Those who won't enter heaven are those whose righteousness does not surpass that of the scribes and Pharisees (the hypocrites).

It's context is:

17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Isaiah 64:6 says, "For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Our righteousness, done in our own efforts and flaunted before the world in bragging is as filthy rags. However those who put their faith and trust in Jesus for their salvation are saved by grace through their faith. It is by the Righteousness of Jesus that we are made righteous. Righteousness is an action though, we are not made righteous just to go through life enjoying God's blessings and not blessing others as well...however that would demonstrate itself in each of us (some are able to give, some are helpers, etc.). :) It's not something we must strive for, it's something that flows out of us onto others as we spend time in God's presence submitting to HIS righteousness.

I believe there are many who claim to believe in Jesus, yet they do not do what He says and in fact, teach the opposite of what He says. When they stand before Him and have to give account for what they taught, at the very least they will be the least in heaven. At the worst they will be called false teachers. And those they've taught incorrectly who have not taken the time to check it all out for themselves and seek the Lord for HIS Truth, will just continue to spread incorrect teaching of others who will continue right on down the line. False teachers are liars and scripture says there will be no liars in heaven (1 Cor 6:9-11) Those who are still living have time to repent though.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I'm saying what Jesus said in regards to the Torah being done and gone...In Matthew 5:18 He said, "until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished". Therefore, since we are still living on the earth, it's obviously NOT passed away yet, that means that the law has not passed away either. He also added that those who break the laws (God's laws, not Jewish laws) and teach others to break the laws too would be considered the least in heaven. It does not say they won't be in heaven just that they will be considered the least. Those who won't enter heaven are those whose righteousness does not surpass that of the scribes and Pharisees (the hypocrites).

It's context is:

17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Isaiah 64:6 says, "For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Our righteousness, done in our own efforts and flaunted before the world in bragging is as filthy rags. However those who put their faith and trust in Jesus for their salvation are saved by grace through their faith. It is by the Righteousness of Jesus that we are made righteous. Righteousness is an action though, we are not made righteous just to go through life enjoying God's blessings and not blessing others as well...however that would demonstrate itself in each of us (some are able to give, some are helpers, etc.). :) It's not something we must strive for, it's something that flows out of us onto others as we spend time in God's presence submitting to HIS righteousness.

I believe there are many who claim to believe in Jesus, yet they do not do what He says and in fact, teach the opposite of what He says. When they stand before Him and have to give account for what they taught, at the very least they will be the least in heaven. At the worst they will be called false teachers. And those they've taught incorrectly who have not taken the time to check it all out for themselves and seek the Lord for HIS Truth, will just continue to spread incorrect teaching of others who will continue right on down the line. False teachers are liars and scripture says there will be no liars in heaven (1 Cor 6:9-11) Those who are still living have time to repent though.

It is a shame that the Bible is more available now than at any other time in history. We can get them on our phones, computers, in print and still people don't search the scriptures to see if what they hear is true or false. I agree with you.

Thanks for explaining what you meant.
 
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Frogster

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Matt 5:18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Fulfilled meant "living it out, not ending it", plus since we're still alive and well on planet earth, the instructions of God are not dead and done away with nor has everything been accomplished. That's what Jesus said anyway. Of course what Jesus came to do here on earth He accomplished, but since we're still here and waiting for His return, not ALL His plans have been accomplished (played out here on earth) yet.


We are still instructed to "not let sin reign in our bodies" and he says that right after he says "consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God". (Romans 6:11-12) The whole chapter is good though. :)
you quoted Rom 6-12, but in 2 more verses it will say sin has dominion under law. That was written to Christians, all showing that even after conversion, that dynamic can happen. So under law sin will reign, but it won't under grace, is what Paul said if we read a tad bit farther.
 
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Frogster

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I'm saying what Jesus said in regards to the Torah being done and gone...In Matthew 5:18 He said, "until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished". Therefore, since we are still living on the earth, it's obviously NOT passed away yet, that means that the law has not passed away either. He also added that those who break the laws (God's laws, not Jewish laws) and teach others to break the laws too would be considered the least in heaven. It does not say they won't be in heaven just that they will be considered the least. Those who won't enter heaven are those whose righteousness does not surpass that of the scribes and Pharisees (the hypocrites).

It's context is:

17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Isaiah 64:6 says, "For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Our righteousness, done in our own efforts and flaunted before the world in bragging is as filthy rags. However those who put their faith and trust in Jesus for their salvation are saved by grace through their faith. It is by the Righteousness of Jesus that we are made righteous. Righteousness is an action though, we are not made righteous just to go through life enjoying God's blessings and not blessing others as well...however that would demonstrate itself in each of us (some are able to give, some are helpers, etc.). :) It's not something we must strive for, it's something that flows out of us onto others as we spend time in God's presence submitting to HIS righteousness.

I believe there are many who claim to believe in Jesus, yet they do not do what He says and in fact, teach the opposite of what He says. When they stand before Him and have to give account for what they taught, at the very least they will be the least in heaven. At the worst they will be called false teachers. And those they've taught incorrectly who have not taken the time to check it all out for themselves and seek the Lord for HIS Truth, will just continue to spread incorrect teaching of others who will continue right on down the line. False teachers are liars and scripture says there will be no liars in heaven (1 Cor 6:9-11) Those who are still living have time to repent though.
The law was abolished for the Christian, so for them it has passed away, Paul said it was abolished, so if you read these verses you will see where it was abolished, and for whom. Yes the law will be there for the unsaved as per Romans 1-3, and in 1 Tim the law is not for the church, as Paul said, but for the wicked, that is not the church.




Matt 5 and law abolishment.

See how in these verses, they connect the body, the cross, his flesh, and the law, abolished, canceled, died, etc, and how they all show one thing, they confirm Col 2:14. The law was nailed there, in, or through the body. Christ died to it at the cross, we died to it too, it is abolished, all of the words prove it, especially when we look at them together.



Please note the words, body, cross, death, His flesh, etc, they do not apply to the unsaved, it is abolished for those who died with Christ, even Jesus died to the law, Rom 7:4.

So to those who went with Christ, to the cross, the law is abolished, as he was/is, so are we, we died and rose in Him, free from the law.



Hebrews 7:18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,


Hebrews 10:9
then he added, ‘See, I have come to do your will.’ He abolishes the first in order to establish the second.

2 Corinthians 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,

Colossians 2:14
having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross


Gal 2:19-20 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.


Col 2:20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world (law) why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations—


We see from the wordage, the conjunction of the body, the cross, the death, His flesh, crucified, died, canceled, all connect to the abolished law, for those who went to the cross, died to law, as/with Christ did.

So yes, as per Jesus and Paul, the law is not abolished for the unsaved, they are under judgment of law until the end, but if they go to the cross, they die to law too. Abolished for those who died with Christ, with He, who himself who died to law, Rom 7:4.



Rom 7:44 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.
 
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Frogster

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Did you know that the natural / carnal man cannot submit to God's Torah!


I wonder what this means about the spirit-filled believer!


Steve
Well, some spiritually minded people said this about the torah.



Law from Paul and others.

Peter said the law was a yoke, he nor the fathers could bear, Acts 15:10, and it would test God to add it to the church.

James said not to burden with the law either in Acts 15.

Jesus in revelation 2:24 said he does not lay any other burden, same words as James in Acts 15.

It was dung life in Phil 3.

The power of sin is the law 1 Cor 15:56.

The law was temporary Gal 3:19.

The law was for children Gal 4:3.

The law works wrath Rom 4:15.

Sinful passions were aroused under law Rom 7:5.

The law is not the gospel Gal 3:9-10.

Life under law is cursed Gal 3:10 and 3:13.

The law is not of promise Gal 3:18 and Rom 4:14.

They received the Spirit not by law Gal 3:2.

They did not have miracles by law Gal 3:5.

The law does not justify Rom 3:20.

The law did not give life Gal 3:21.

The law did not sanctify Gal 3:3,

The law was added to increase the trespass, not take it away, Rom5:20.

Sin has dominion under law Rom 6:14.

Law life was bondage Gal 2:4, Gal 4:3, Gal 4:25, Gal 5:1.

To be severed from Christ, was to be under law, imagine that! Gal 5:4.

The law was called a strict pedagogue (tutor) of Gal 3:24, a strict disciplinarian, not very flattering, which fits into the context of the prison warden words of 3:24. The pedagogues beat the children with rods in Paul’s day.

The law was elemental Gal 4:3.

The law was a system of slavery, Gal 4.

Paul called the law bondage about 4 times in Galatians.

The law was called a prison that held in sin Gal 3:22-23.

The law is not grace Rom 11:6.

We are not heirs by law Rom 4:16.

The law is not of faith Gal 3:12.

The law is not the cross Gal 5:11 and Gal 3:1.

The law was abolished Eph 2:15.

The law was nailed to the cross Col 2:14,

The law caused division between Gentile and Jew in Eph 2:14-15.

The law caused enmity with God and man, Eph 2:16-18.

We are not sons by law Gal 4:6, the law was a ministry of death and condemnation 2 Cor 3:7-9.

The law could not cleanse guilt Heb 9:14 and 10:4,

To revert to the old cov was to spurn the Spirit of grace and the blood of the Cov, it was sin Heb 10:26-29.

Christ is the end of the law Rom 10:4.

There was a time when there was no law Rom 5:13.

It was a ministry of death and condemnation, 2 Corinthians 3.

We are not under law, Gal 5:18, Romans 6:14.

The old cov was abolished, Heb 8:13, 10:9.

Weak and useless.

Hebrews 7:18-19 For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.


In Galatians 4:10-11, Paul said he wasted his time on them, if they got under Sabbath, the law, the Jewish calendar, and the basically same thing in Colossians 2:16.

Whew!
 
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