LDS Did you keep your First Estate?

[Rescued One]

How do you know that?

 

[Peter1000]

How do you know that?

Because we are here on earth.

Those who kept their first esatate have the opportunity to go to the second estate, which is this earthlife. One of the most important thing that happens in this second estate is that you progress to obtain a mortal flesh and bone and spirit body.

Those that followed lucifer/satan and lost the war in heaven, did not keep their first estate, and therefore they will not have a chance to come to earth and recieve a body, and they never will in all eternity. That is why when Jesus ordered the evil spirits out of the body of the madman, they asked if they could go into the bodies of swine, and they did. They were greatful for any body, even of swine.

Most religions do not appreciate the body as much as we do. We know how important it is to have a body in the eternities, just like Jesus has. But it is the crown jewel of the second estate.

 

[Peter1000]

How do you know that?

We know from Jude a little snippet of information that a first estate existed:
Jude 6 King James Version (KJV)
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

You and I were part of this first estate as spirit children of God.

We know that many of those spirit children decided to follow lucifer in the war in heaven
Reveations 12. These are those that Jude is talking about. They lost the war in heaven and did not keep their first estate because they rebelled against God to his face, and were cast out to this earth.

You and I chose well and fought lucifer on the side of Jesus and his commander Michael. We kept our first estate and were given the right to progress to this mortal life on our way to eternal life. This earth life is our second estate. JS says that if you keep your second estate, you will be added upon throughout all eternity, until you have a fullness of what God and Jesus have. What a magnificent future God has instore for us.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Because we are here on earth.

Those who kept their first esatate have the opportunity to go to the second estate, which is this earthlife. One of the most important thing that happens in this second estate is that you progress to obtain a mortal flesh and bone and spirit body.

Those that followed lucifer/satan and lost the war in heaven, did not keep their first estate, and therefore they will not have a chance to come to earth and recieve a body, and they never will in all eternity. That is why when Jesus ordered the evil spirits out of the body of the madman, they asked if they could go into the bodies of swine, and they did. They were greatful for any body, even of swine.

Most religions do not appreciate the body as much as we do. We know how important it is to have a body in the eternities, just like Jesus has. But it is the crown jewel of the second estate.

A body was prepared for Jesus, as the bible says, so your saying that people were first good angels that didn’t leave their post (first estate) so they also had a body prepared for them? Is that the predestination that is spoken of by the rest of the denominations? Interesting analogy, do you have any biblical proof?
What would you consider to be the second death if mortality is the second estate.?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

We know from Jude a little snippet of information that a first estate existed:
Jude 6 King James Version (KJV)
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

You and I were part of this first estate as spirit children of God.

We know that many of those spirit children decided to follow lucifer in the war in heaven
Reveations 3. These are those that Jude is talking about. They lost the war in heaven and did not keep their first estate because they rebelled against God to his face, and were cast out to this earth.

You and I chose well and fought lucifer on the side of Jesus and his commander Michael. We kept our first estate and were given the right to progress to this mortal life on our way to eternal life. This earth life is our second estate. JS says that if you keep your second estate, you will be added upon throughout all eternity, until you have a fullness of what God and Jesus have. What a magnificent future God has instore for us.

if you keep your second estate, you will be added upon throughout all eternity, until you have a fullness of what God and Jesus have.

That sounds like reincarnation, is that what you mean?

 

[He is the way]

How do you know that?

The Bible states:
(New Testament | Jude 1:6)

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

So who are these angels or what are angels? The Bible states that angels are spirits:

(New Testament | Hebrews 1:13 - 14)

13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

We also know that God is the Father of spirits:

(New Testament | Hebrews 12:9)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

So where are these spirits? They are "reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

So obviously, since we are not with them, we must have kept our first estate.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The closest I could find to a transfer of estates was in the book of Easter

Esth 1:19
If it please the king, let there go a royal commandment from him, and let it be written among the laws of the Persians and the Medes, that it be not altered, That Vashti come no more before king Ahasuerus; and let the king give her royal estate unto another that is better than she.
Esth 8:1
That same day King Ahasuerus awarded Queen Esther the estate of Haman, the enemy of the Jews. Mordecai entered the king’s presence because Esther had revealed her relationship to Mordecai.
Esth 8:2
The king removed his signet ring he had recovered from Haman and gave it to Mordecai, and Esther put him in charge of Haman’s estate.
Esth 8:7
King Ahasuerus said to Esther the Queen and to Mordecai the Jew, “Look, I have given Haman’s estate to Esther, and he was hanged on the gallows because he attacked the Jews.

In that transaction what was taken by exiling the original possessor was given to another by instating a new law that was Persian by design. (It proceeded in a very different way tho) The new possessor then gives that to the uncle. Prolly not the same thing eh?

 

[Peter1000]

A body was prepared for Jesus, as the bible says, so your saying that people were first good angels that didn’t leave their post (first estate) so they also had a body prepared for them? Is that the predestination that is spoken of by the rest of the denominations? Interesting analogy, do you have any biblical proof?
What would you consider to be the second death if mortality is the second estate.?

In Revelations 12 the spirit children were called "angels" vs. 7. We are also called the "stars of heaven" in vs 4. Lucifer was able to take 1/3 of the spirit children (angels/stars of heaven)
and they followed him into war, and kept not their first estate, but were cast out of heaven.

2/3 of the spirit children (angels and stars of heaven) were faithful to God and Jesus and kept their first estate.

The spirit children are also called the sons of God in Job where Job is telling us of a meeting between God and His spirit sons in heaven. See Job 2:1, and Job 38:7

Jesus was in the pre-earth life with us fighting lucifer/satan. A body was prepared for him, and yes a body was prepared for us who kept our first estate. The difference is that you and I had bodies prepared by 2 mortals. Jesus's body was prepared by an immortal God and a mortal woman. That makes him spcecial. He had a special and critical mission to perform here on earth.

Predestination to me means that we were pre-programmed before this life to either believe or not believe. We like the word "foreordained". Many of us spirit children were "foreordained"
to perform certain tasks here on earth during our second estate. But we have our agency to decide whether we live up to our foreordination or not. With predestination it is like in stone and we do it whether we want to or not, we have not free will or free agency, which I feel is against the will of the Lord.

The first death is the death of the body. The second death is the separation of you from God and Jesus Christ. The first death everyone partakes of, only those that reject Jesus will suffer the second death.

Hope this is clear as mud now. Ask me more if you wish.

 

[Peter1000]

That sounds like reincarnation, is that what you mean?

No, your first estate was in heaven, you were a spirit child of God. Your second estate started when you were born on earth, and your spirit was housed in a body of flesh and bone, just like Jesus. You will die and be resurrected into a perfect, immortal body of flesh and bone and spirit. This condition will last for eternity, the spirit and body never separating again.

Not reincarnation, but certainly 3 different lives in the same person that you are, you keep your same identity. Not in different animal forms like reincarnation.

 

[Peter1000]

The closest I could find to a transfer of estates was in the book of Easter

Esth 1:19
If it please the king, let there go a royal commandment from him, and let it be written among the laws of the Persians and the Medes, that it be not altered, That Vashti come no more before king Ahasuerus; and let the king give her royal estate unto another that is better than she.
Esth 8:1
That same day King Ahasuerus awarded Queen Esther the estate of Haman, the enemy of the Jews. Mordecai entered the king’s presence because Esther had revealed her relationship to Mordecai.
Esth 8:2
The king removed his signet ring he had recovered from Haman and gave it to Mordecai, and Esther put him in charge of Haman’s estate.
Esth 8:7
King Ahasuerus said to Esther the Queen and to Mordecai the Jew, “Look, I have given Haman’s estate to Esther, and he was hanged on the gallows because he attacked the Jews.

In that transaction what was taken by exiling the original possessor was given to another by instating a new law that was Persian by design. (It proceeded in a very different way tho) The new possessor then gives that to the uncle. Prolly not the same thing eh?

Thank you for this, but not part of the first estate talked about by Jude in Jude 1:6.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

In Revelations 12 the spirit children were called "angels" vs. 7. We are also called the "stars of heaven" in vs 4. Lucifer was able to take 1/3 of the spirit children (angels/stars of heaven)
and they followed him into war, and kept not their first estate, but were cast out of heaven.

The book of Daniel says that those who help to save souls will be as stars.

2/3 of the spirit children (angels and stars of heaven) were faithful to God and Jesus and kept their first estate.

That should be very obvious to any Christian who has their belief system in line with scripture.

The spirit children are also called the sons of God in Job where Job is telling us of a meeting between God and His spirit sons in heaven. See Job 2:1, and Job 38:7

That could refer to guardian angels of earthly children who have always a place before the throne as representatives.

Jesus was in the pre-earth life with us fighting lucifer/satan. A body was prepared for him, and yes a body was prepared for us who kept our first estate. The difference is that you and I had bodies prepared by 2 mortals. Jesus's body was prepared by an immortal God and a mortal woman. That makes him spcecial. He had a special and critical mission to perform here on earth.

Iow, He had the incorruptible body to begin with because it already contained the essence of God whereas our bodies do not because of the spirit being dead, right? While I agree with that the way you explained it just leaves me thinking that Jesus was created in the way that Gen 6 says giants were made

Predestination to me means that we were pre-programmed before this life to either believe or not believe. We like the word "foreordained". Many of us spirit children were "foreordained"
to perform certain tasks here on earth during our second estate. But we have our agency to decide whether we live up to our foreordination or not. With predestination it is like in stone and we do it whether we want to or not, we have not free will or free agency, which I feel is against the will of the Lord.

We have all been saved to do good works ... bottom line. That is the least of assignments. To have a connection to the spirit via the revived human spirit is the ordination or anointing that does not require a manmade teacher to inform. Predestined by your definition is every person alive that is entitled to God’s care.

The first death is the death of the body. The second death is the separation of you from God and Jesus Christ. The first death everyone partakes of, only those that reject Jesus will suffer the second death.

Hope this is clear as mud now. Ask me more if you wish.

Mississippi mud ...

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Not reincarnation, but certainly 3 different lives in the same person that you are, you keep your same identity. Not in different animal forms like reincarnation.

This is actually problematic to me because I see so much of what is taught these days as a reversal to animal instinct preferred. One of the things that make me wanna go hmmm. Certainly we have been given once to live, earthly, and then death, but as to what we will become remains a mystery except that we shall be as He is.

 

[Peter1000]

This is actually problematic to me because I see so much of what is taught these days as a reversal to animal instinct preferred. One of the things that make me wanna go hmmm. Certainly we have been given once to live, earthly, and then death, but as to what we will become remains a mystery except that we shall be as He is.

If I were to say Ok, we have this life on earth (that's 1 life), and then we die and are resurrected with powerful new bodies immortal beings (and this is a different life), then in this example I have shown you that you have 2 lives, mortal and one immortal. You are the same person, but with different environments.

We add a third life to this and we say that there is a spirit existence, pre-earth.

Again, follow the 3 lives of Jesus Christ. Spirit existence -1, incarnated into a mortal body, and live his life as a mortal -2, and then was resurrected into a glorious immortal body with flesh and bone and spirit -3. Your progression is the same as his.

 

[Peter1000]

The book of Daniel says that those who help to save souls will be as stars.

That should be very obvious to any Christian who has their belief system in line with scripture.

That could refer to guardian angels of earthly children who have always a place before the throne as representatives.

Iow, He had the incorruptible body to begin with because it already contained the essence of God whereas our bodies do not because of the spirit being dead, right? While I agree with that the way you explained it just leaves me thinking that Jesus was created in the way that Gen 6 says giants were made

We have all been saved to do good works ... bottom line. That is the least of assignments. To have a connection to the spirit via the revived human spirit is the ordination or anointing that does not require a manmade teacher to inform. Predestined by your definition is every person alive that is entitled to God’s care.

Mississippi mud ...

OK Cassia, I tried, but apparently I am not articulate enough to help you understand our belief system about the pre-earth life.

 

[Rescued One]

Okay, who are all these valiant people on earth?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Thank you for this, but not part of the first estate talked about by Jude in Jude 1:6.

I found it interesting that Vashti, as the one supposedly deprived of inheritance and cast outside the gate, was the legitimate heir according to a law that the Judiasts still commemorate as a depiction of the comparison between love and hate.

So where are these spirits? They are "reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.” So obviously, since we are not with them, we must have kept our first estate.

I just see it as just another comparison of judgement reserved. But that would be as a Gentile judgement rather than covenant judgement perhaps. Something like the Rechabites vs David type thang.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I have a question then .. if it’s possible for the 1st estate to be lost at the second death then doesn’t it stand to reason that those who lost their 1st estate should be given compensation for repentance. It would also stand to reason then that both wheats and tares have been given predestination so the elect would not come from that decree. If both wheats and tares, are different nations and tares are hated by God then it would explain the foreknowledge of Jacob and Esua.

 

[Rescued One]

I have no idea what Cassia is talking about.

However, my understanding of Mormonism is that every person on earth earned the right to come to earth and obtain a physical body. They chose to follow Christ instead of Satan. yet this includes every child molester, serial killer, and dictator. Is the Mormon god omniscient?

 

[Ironhold]

I have no idea what Cassia is talking about.

However, my understanding of Mormonism is that every person on earth earned the right to come to earth and obtain a physical body. They chose to follow Christ instead of Satan. yet this includes every child molester, serial killer, and dictator. Is the Mormon god omniscient?

It's called "free will".

This is something that critics of the church keep forgetting about.

God allows everyone their free will, but sadly many people use it to hurt others.

 

[Peter1000]

I have a question then .. if it’s possible for the 1st estate to be lost at the second death then doesn’t it stand to reason that those who lost their 1st estate should be given compensation for repentance. It would also stand to reason then that both wheats and tares have been given predestination so the elect would not come from that decree. If both wheats and tares, are different nations and tares are hated by God then it would explain the foreknowledge of Jacob and Esua.

I would agree with you on this, however, those who kept their first estate, but do not keep their second estate do not lose their first estate, it has already happened and cannot be repeated. They just lose their second estate and do not have advantages in heaven as those that kept both their first estates and second estates.

If you met up with a few of those that lost their first estate, you will see why they lost their first estate. They hated and still hate God on sight. They have not of measure of repentence in them, and would reject soundly any attemp from God to save them at this point. They would much rather rule in hell than be under the rule of God in heaven.