Did the Lord create wisdom?

[tonychanyt]

Concerning wisdom (BSB) Proverbs 8:

22 The LORD created [H7069] me as His first course, before His works of old.
23 From everlasting I was established, from the beginning, before the earth began.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was brought forth, when no springs were overflowing with water.

Brown-Driver-Briggs:

1 get, acquire (all poetry)​

a. of God as originating, creating,​

b. of God as victoriously redeeming his people​

c. of Eve, acquiring​

d. of acquiring wisdom, knowledge​

2 buy​

H7069 occurs 85 times. The word is ambiguous.

ESV:

22“The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.

NIV:

The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;

Brenton Septuagint Translation:
The Lord made me the beginning of his ways for his works.

The Greek word in LXX is not ambiguous.

Pulpit Commentary:

The Lord possessed me. Great controversy has arisen about the word rendered "possessed." The verb used is קָנָה (kanah), which means properly "to erect, set upright," also "to found, form" (Genesis 14:19, 22), then "to acquire" (Proverbs 1:5; Proverbs 4:5, 7, etc.) or "to possess" (Proverbs 15:32; Proverbs 19:8). The Vulgate, Aquila, Theodotion, Symmachus, Venetian, give "possessed;" Septuagint, ἔκτισε, "made," and so Syriac. The Arians took the word in the sense of "created" (which, though supported by the LXX., it seems never to have had), and deduced therefrom the Son's inferiority to the Father - that he was made, not begotten from all eternity. Ben Sira more than once employs the verb κτίζω in speaking of Wisdom's origin; e.g. Ecclus. 1:4, 9 Ecclus. 24:8. Opposing the heresy of the Arians, the Fathers generally adopted the rendering ἐκτήσατο, possedit, "possessed;" and even those who received the translation ἔκτισε, explained it not of creating, but of appointing, thus: The Father set Wisdom over all created things, or made Wisdom to be the efficient cause of his creatures (Revelation 3:14). May we not say that the writer was guided to use a word which would express relation in a twofold sense? Wisdom is regarded either as the mind of God expressed in operation, or the Second Person of the Holy Trinity; and the verb thus signifies that God possesses in himself this essential Wisdom, and intimates likewise that Wisdom by eternal generation is a Divine Personality.​

Even if wisdom was created. The Word was not.

 

[childeye 2]

Creator/creature dichotomy:
When describing God as creating through His spoken Word, the Word as an expression of God's Self will not be the same perspective as to the hearer who was created to hear/see and believe. In scripture, the Creator in His foreknowledge knew that the creature would take for granted whatever good the Creator bestowed upon it and would become vain in unthankfulness.

If it is said that God "created" wisdom, it would make sense in that He also created a foolishness for the sake of establishing a means of evaluation for the creature. Hence according to scripture, God's Word is wisdom even when it's foolishness for the creature. It's in the simplicity of faith where we find hope to trust that all things work together for good.

The Word was the means of creation and cannot be created when referring to God's expression of His self. But His Word can be said to have been conceived before He spoke.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Two thoughts come immediately to mind:

1. "Wisdom" is a word, a description of a category, and not a thing of itself —or is it? Is sin?
2. Poetry (to include the 'wisdom' books) may be wise, but it is not of itself doctrine —or is it?

 

[Fireinfolding]

Says, " Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God"

Although I do know there are some word phobias which I don't quite get where they come from.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Says, " Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God"

Although I do know there are some word phobias which I don't quite get where they come from.

"word phobias"? For instance—?

 

[Fireinfolding]

"word phobias"? For instance—?

Like using the word "made" in relation to Jesus as both can be shown applying to him coming into this world as well as after he was raised up.

Begotten and not made is in the creed right, so its supposedly a forbidden to use the word made when it come to Christ).

And so I dont get what the problem with using the word made as it relates to Jesus as some contend over.

God sent forth his Son, MADE of a woman, MADE under the law (Gal 4:4)

The Word was MADE flesh (John 1:14)

God MADE Jesus Lord and Christ (Acts 2:36)

Its just that both the words made and begotten are shown used for Christ whether in the place where he was coming into this world or after departing this world..

So also Christ glorified not himself to be MADE an high priest; but he that said unto him,
Thou art my Son, to day have I BEGOTTEN thee. (Heb 5:5)

I just don't get the word police on these things

 

[childeye 2]

Like using the word "made" in relation to Jesus as both can be shown applying to him coming into this world as well as after he was raised up.

Begotten and not made is in the creed right, so its supposedly a forbidden to use the word made when it come to Christ).

And so I dont get what the problem with using the word made as it relates to Jesus as some contend over.

God sent forth his Son, MADE of a woman, MADE under the law (Gal 4:4)

The Word was MADE flesh (John 1:14)

God MADE Jesus Lord and Christ (Acts 2:36)

Its just that both the words made and begotten are shown used for Christ whether in the place where he was coming into this world or after departing this world..

So also Christ glorified not himself to be MADE an high priest; but he that said unto him,
Thou art my Son, to day have I BEGOTTEN thee. (Heb 5:5)

I just don't get the word police on these things

I think you're probably referring to the Arian controversy. For what it's worth I believe the controversy was a misunderstanding due to semantics.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I think you're probably referring to the Arian controversy. For what it's worth I believe the controversy was a misunderstanding due to semantics.

I havent much of a clue, one heresy supposedly wont say, "Mother of God" ... I think thats Nestor's heresy and so this Arian's heresy has to do with the "Begotten not made" word offense? There seem to be offenders over words (whether never used in scripture) or words that are unknowingly used together in scripture and men are being made heretics over words?

There has to be more to it, theres a scripture somewhere about making a man an offender for a word, sometimes it sounds similar to something like that.

 

[childeye 2]

I havent much of a clue, one heresy supposedly wont say, "Mother of God" ... I think thats Nestor's heresy and so this Arian's heresy has to do with the "Begotten not made" word offense? There seem to be offenders over words (whether never used in scripture) or words that are unknowingly used together in scripture and men are being made heretics over words?

There has to be more to it, theres a scripture somewhere about making a man an offender for a word, sometimes it sounds similar to something like that.

Well, we can see that semantics occur when, subjectively, people approach the same objective truth from opposite perspectives. I believe that the devil can use such an occasion to cause division since both positions are sure they are correct from their perspective.

 

[tonychanyt]

Well, we can see that semantics occur when, subjectively, people approach the same objective truth from opposite perspectives.

In that case, I apply the method of Subjective (Bayesian) Probability.

 

[childeye 2]

In that case, I apply the method of Subjective (Bayesian) Probability.

I looked at the links. I don't see how that would apply because I'm already inferring it's probable that both sides are valid in an objective view and any disagreement is more a matter of semantical problems that occur circumstantially.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Like using the word "made" in relation to Jesus as both can be shown applying to him coming into this world as well as after he was raised up.

Begotten and not made is in the creed right, so its supposedly a forbidden to use the word made when it come to Christ).

And so I dont get what the problem with using the word made as it relates to Jesus as some contend over.

God sent forth his Son, MADE of a woman, MADE under the law (Gal 4:4)

The Word was MADE flesh (John 1:14)

God MADE Jesus Lord and Christ (Acts 2:36)

Its just that both the words made and begotten are shown used for Christ whether in the place where he was coming into this world or after departing this world..

So also Christ glorified not himself to be MADE an high priest; but he that said unto him,
Thou art my Son, to day have I BEGOTTEN thee. (Heb 5:5)

I just don't get the word police on these things

What has that to do with "Phobias"?

 

[tonychanyt]

I looked at the links. I don't see how that would apply because I'm already inferring it's probable that both sides are valid in an objective view and any disagreement is more a matter of semantical problems that occur circumstantially.

Can you write out the two propositions, one for each side?

 

[childeye 2]

Can you write out the two propositions, one for each side?

Not really. Most firsthand written accounts of declared heretical beliefs were typically destroyed, and we only have the accounts of what they believed according to those who accused them of the heresy.

With that caveat in mind, I can say that the statement "begotten/not made" projects a reaction to a perceived negative of what not to believe. Hence, we see a creed that is typically meant to declare a faith, declaring a nuance of what one must infer is an unfaith.

Accordingly, in a propositional format I would assume that this dichotomy is at play "Creator/creature" in the creed. But to account for why disagreement would occur, I also must consider that the semantical differences actually proceeded from these "Spirit/flesh" descriptions of the Christ:

P1: The Christ was the son of God/ P2: The Christ was the son of man...... (which to me are not mutually exclusive).

But moreover, scripture testifies that God said that His Word will not return void, so how can one avoid arguing against that testimony when favoring either proposition? The term "Christ" means the True Image of God sent by God. Jesus had to be both to be the Christ.

As we can see, the spiritual properties of God's being both outside and inside the creation at the same time creates a circumstance where semantical problems will occur. The subtext is like a picture of an identical picture within a picture because this simple three letter word GOD is axiomatic for the source of the energy that formed all things before any imagery is even added.

 

[tonychanyt]

Not really. The firsthand written accounts of accused heretics beliefs were typically destroyed, and we only have the accounts of what they believed according to those who accused them of the heresy.

Argumentation begins with the construction of propositions. Without them, there would be no formal argument.

 

[childeye 2]

Argumentation begins with the construction of propositions. Without them, there would be no formal argument.

That's a valid point. I edited my post #14 to accommodate that observation to the best of my understanding.

 

[tonychanyt]

With that caveat in mind, I can say that the statement "begotten/not made" projects a reaction to a perceived negative of what not to believe.

See For God so loved the world, that he gave his only BEGOTTEN Son and follow up there

P1: The Christ was the son of God/ P2: The Christ was the son of man...... (which to me are not mutually exclusive).

Right

 

[childeye 2]

See For God so loved the world, that he gave his only BEGOTTEN Son and follow up there

I found your link to present an illuminating exegesis of scripture as pertains to BEGOTTEN.

Right

Okay, please peruse this articulation of opposing propositions that allude to the Arian controversy and in accord with Christ = The True Image of God sent by God.

P1: Begotten implies The Christ had no beginning/ P2: Begotten implies The Christ had a beginning.

 

[tonychanyt]

P1: Begotten implies The Christ had no beginning/ P2: Begotten implies The Christ had a beginning.

See You are my Son; TODAY I have begotten you and follow up there

 

[Fireinfolding]

What has that to do with "Phobias"?

Word phobics, word police, making people offenders for one thing or another over a word.

You want to start strife over a word?