Did the eye evolve?

Brightmoon · Sep 30, 2018

Humans and pigs have similar skin which is why we use pigskin for burn victims. Pigs are family Suidae which means they’re related to whales and cows ( Artiodactyla). They not close relatives to any humans or protohuman lineage

We’re so closely related to chimps that we have the same ABO Blood types . Zoos use human blood to operate on chimps in an emergency

Ophiolite · Sep 30, 2018

Chris V++ said:
Doctors, more than anyone, would have to know just how 'fearfully and wonderfully made' we are, so I have to believe the majority of them believe in some version of intelligent design over millions of random mutations producing happy accidents so to speak. It's really the theory of 'happy accidents.'

It's just as well then, that this is not what evolution theory claims.

There are no "happy accidents" and random mutations are filtered by natural selection, a decidedly non-random process.

Don't you think it would be smarter and more polite to know something about a subject you wish to criticise, before going public? If not, why not?

Brightmoon · Sep 30, 2018

Chris V++ said:
They could be if at some point if 'all organisms living and extinct [are] distant cousins.'
I don't know if Genesis was that specific about 'kinds' and how it relates to genera.

( snip)

. Cats are Feliform Carnivora. This includes the cats , meerkats, civets, hyenas, and fossas.
All of the Carnivora are closely related that includes dogs bears raccoons etc but they’re in 2 main branches Feliformia (catlike) and Caniformia ( doglike) . By the way the catdog ancestors were called miacids

Chris V++ · Sep 30, 2018

Ophiolite said:
It's just as well then, that this is not what evolution theory claims.

There are no "happy accidents" and random mutations are filtered by natural selection, a decidedly non-random process.

Don't you think it would be smarter and more polite to know something about a subject you wish to criticise, before going public? If not, why not?

A random mutation causing a change in an organism that would prove beneficial by way of natural selection is a 'happy accident' since most mutations don't work out so well for the mutated. I'm sorry 'happy accident' isn't scientific enough of a term for you. Don't you think it would be smarter and more polite to ask qualifying questions before going public with a non- random personal attack? Or don't you believe the mutations are random?

dqhall · Sep 30, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
Had lunch with an old church friend yesterday. He told me he recently had an eye exam, after which he asked the eye doctor if he believed the human eye evolved. The doctor replied, "No way."

I post this because some time ago during a crevo discussion someone told me I should ask my doctor if he believed in creation or evolution. Of course I wouldn't do this, but my friend did his. I wonder how many other doctors hold the same belief, and would reveal it to a patient.

I think there have been some changes in the eyes by selective breeding, others by mutation and some by God. An owl can see at night. Humans have good color vision; great for identifying fruits and plants. Some birds can see magnetic north. Some snakes can see infrared/heat. An eagle can see a rabbit two miles away. I would have to praise God for these things, for they could not have happened by chance alone.

pitabread · Sep 30, 2018

Chris V++ said:
A random mutation causing a change in an organism that would prove beneficial by way of natural selection is a 'happy accident' since most mutations don't work out so well for the mutated.

A lot of changes in organisms over time aren't necessarily the result of strictly beneficial mutations. Most changes are arguably neutral.

Brightmoon · Sep 30, 2018

Chris V++ said:
A random mutation causing a change in an organism that would prove beneficial by way of natural selection is a 'happy accident' since most mutations don't work out so well for the mutated. I'm sorry 'happy accident' isn't scientific enough of a term for you. Don't you think it would be smarter and more polite to ask qualifying questions before going public with a non- random personal attack? Or don't you believe the mutations are random?

when get into the triplet genetic code They aren’t quite that random . It’s usually the third one in the triplet code that mutates . If you look at the code you see that CUU codes for leucine but so do CUA, CUG and CUC.
This has a regulatory effect as , for example there might not be as many CUC as CUA RNAs roaming around and changing that last A to a C slows down the rate that the protein is formed even though they both code for leucine.
There are a lot of ways that a mutation can affect DNA and it’s not as simple as just changing the DNA . Genetics is a sophisticated subject and I certainly can’t put a textbook here . If you really need to ask a question sfs and tas8831 can answer your questions better as they are both working geneticists

pitabread · Sep 30, 2018

Chris V++ said:
Doctors, more than anyone, would have to know just how 'fearfully and wonderfully made' we are, so I have to believe the majority of them believe in some version of intelligent design over millions of random mutations producing happy accidents so to speak.

If one wants to believe in design, I'd like to see a working model of how such design was created.

I mean, we have observable, demonstrable and testable processes of biological evolution. What is the equivalent for design?

Brightmoon · Sep 30, 2018

dqhall said:
I think there have been some changes in the eyes by selective breeding, others by mutation and some by God. An owl can see at night. Humans have good color vision; great for identifying fruits and plants. Some birds can see magnetic north. Some snakes can see infrared/heat. An eagle can see a rabbit two miles away. I would have to praise God for these things, for they could not have happened by chance alone.

And natural selection accounts for all of these . I know birds and other organisms can detect magnetic fields not sure if they can actually see them

Ophiolite · Sep 30, 2018

Chris V++ said:
A random mutation causing a change in an organism that would prove beneficial by way of natural selection is a 'happy accident' since most mutations don't work out so well for the mutated. I'm sorry 'happy accident' isn't scientific enough of a term for you. Don't you think it would be smarter and more polite to ask qualifying questions before going public with a non- random personal attack? Or don't you believe the mutations are random?

If you consider an attack on your ideas to be personal you may have a problem. I can't help you with that.

Now, on topic, the phrase "happy accident" has a close resemblance to Goldschmit's "hopeful monster", a long discredited notion that macroevolution could arise through large scale macromutations.

The implication of your text is that the random mutation is all there is to evolution. To attack that concept is to attack a strawman. It is unfortunate when done out of ignorance and reprehensible when done as a rhetorical device. I assume it was the former. You have now been informed: evolution does not proceed through happy accidents.

The issue is not that "happy accident" isn't scientific enough for me. The issue is that "happy accident" is not scientific at all and, as presented in your post, is seriously misleading. It would be a pleasant conclusion if you were to recognise and acknowledge this.

Job 33:6 · Sep 30, 2018

Chris V++ said:
I can accept microevolution; house cats and tigers 'evolving' from a common ancestor, mutating from the same 'kind,' to use a biblical word. Same for wolves and chihuahuas, geckos and alligators.
I can only speak to house pets.

Geckos and alligators? There is far more diversity they're between people and other apes.

DogmaHunter · Sep 30, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
Had lunch with an old church friend yesterday. He told me he recently had an eye exam, after which he asked the eye doctor if he believed the human eye evolved. The doctor replied, "No way."

I post this because some time ago during a crevo discussion someone told me I should ask my doctor if he believed in creation or evolution. Of course I wouldn't do this, but my friend did his. I wonder how many other doctors hold the same belief, and would reveal it to a patient.

I asked my doctor and he said "yes way".
I then told him about the OldWiseGuy's friend who asked his doctor who said "no way".
My doc said "ow him... yeah, I know that guy. He's lying, he just doesn't want to lose a customer. I don't speak to him anymore, the dude has no honor"

I love anecdotal evidence.

Astrophile · Sep 30, 2018

dqhall said:
An eagle can see a rabbit two miles away. I would have to praise God for these things, for they could not have happened by chance alone.

Does the rabbit praise God for the eagle's excellent eyesight?

OldWiseGuy · Sep 30, 2018

DogmaHunter said:
I asked my doctor and he said "yes way".
I then told him about the OldWiseGuy's friend who asked his doctor who said "no way".
My doc said "ow him... yeah, I know that guy. He's lying, he just doesn't want to lose a customer. I don't speak to him anymore, the dude has no honor"

I love anecdotal evidence.

Your doctor works on Sunday?

DogmaHunter · Oct 1, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
Your doctor works on Sunday?

Sure, he's the on-call doctor. You don't have those in the US?

Bungle_Bear · Oct 1, 2018

DogmaHunter said:
Sure, he's the on-call doctor. You don't have those in the US?

Only the heartless atheist doctors work on Sundays. The compassionate, God fearing ones leave the sick to die.

tas8831 · Oct 1, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
Had lunch with an old church friend yesterday. He told me he recently had an eye exam, after which he asked the eye doctor if he believed the human eye evolved. The doctor replied, "No way."

I'm sure that happened.

No, really.

There are idiot doctors who use their child-like faith in their practice, often to the detriment of their patients.

I lived in a very conservative, religious area of Michigan many years ago. Our best friends in the apartment complex we lived in were hyper-religious - husband was attending a seminary, etc.
Their families were very also very religious, and would only go to doctors that attended their respective conservative, evangelical churches.
Our neighbor's mother, sadly, was 'cursed' with a rare hereditary blood disorder. Her doctor claimed that it was the result of her having "too much sin in her life." My neighbor believed that, until I explained heredity to her. She urged her mom to see a different doctor.
To no avail.

Sadly, the mom recently died due to her "sin."

Oh, on the bright side, the husband, studying to be a minister, hooked up with his daughter's friend and they are now divorced. Such is conservative religious life.

Shemjaza · Oct 1, 2018

Chris V++ said:
They could be if at some point if 'all organisms living and extinct [are] distant cousins.'
I don't know if Genesis was that specific about 'kinds' and how it relates to genera.

I do remember learning we are more genetically similar to pigs than chimps?

They aren't.

Pigs are however, bigger, cheaper, easier to breed and easier to get ethics permission to experiment with transplants and so on.

OldWiseGuy · Oct 1, 2018

DogmaHunter said:
Sure, he's the on-call doctor. You don't have those in the US?

And your doctor knows my friend's eye doctor?

OldWiseGuy · Oct 1, 2018

tas8831 said:
There are idiot doctors who use their child-like faith in their practice, often to the detriment of their patients.

I lived in a very conservative, religious area of Michigan many years ago. Our best friends in the apartment complex we lived in were hyper-religious - husband was attending a seminary, etc.
Their families were very also very religious, and would only go to doctors that attended their respective conservative, evangelical churches.
Our neighbor's mother, sadly, was 'cursed' with a rare hereditary blood disorder. Her doctor claimed that it was the result of her having "too much sin in her life." My neighbor believed that, until I explained heredity to her. She urged her mom to see a different doctor.
To no avail.

Sadly, the mom recently died due to her "sin."

Oh, on the bright side, the husband, studying to be a minister, hooked up with his daughter's friend and they are now divorced. Such is conservative religious life.

I'm sure that happened.

.

Did the eye evolve?

Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.

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Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.

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Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.

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Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.

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