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If you are saying that Paul calling himself Chief doesn't necessarily mean he was a sinner, then you are agreement with me and disagreeing with the person i responded to. Maybe the mix of capital letters confused you?This is confusing.
Why not? Paul calling himself the chief of sinners does mean he is a sinner.
Paul called himself the chief of sinners not because he sinned a lot, but because he persecuted and killed Christians as Saul. Paul also considered and called himself the 'least' of the apostles for the same reason.
Also, is their a reason why "Chief" is capitalized? Paul was not a chief of anything.
“And forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us...”This makes ZERO logical mindful sense and ZERO Scriptural sense.
The Spirit of God dwells in you, WHILE YOU SIN?
Where is Gods Spirit, while you ARE SINNING? Hiding His eyes, cringing, leaving you?
Please explain how the Spirit of God is IN YOU, while you commit sin.
God Bless,
SBC
The Lord's Prayer is a powerful teaching of how to prayer.....as opposed to what should be repeated while praying.“And forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us...”
Why ask for forgiveness if we are not sinners?
Everyone ever born except Jesus sins and continues to, here's the only way to be right before God.He was speaking about his pre conversion. you have you read in it it's full context in order to understand what paul was truly saying. He was speaking of His life living in ignorance...
Proverbs chapter 10 verse 12Did Paul consider himself a "sinner"?, How many of which disciples/apostles think of themselves as sinners...? Are we supposed to think of ourselves or consider ourselves as sinners...? Even after we say we are saved...?
Comments...?
God Bless!
1 john 3:9
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. NIV
Those who have been born into God's family do not make a practice of sinning, because God's life is in them. So they can't keep on sinning, because they are children of God. NLT
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. ESV
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. KJV
So, you don't eat more than you need to.. gluttony, desire a new car, couch, house, trip abroad, boat... Covetousness , look at a woman or man and feel attracted ++.... Lust, do something for yourself where others concerns may be put aside for your own desires... selfishness, put a duty off till another day or not keep pace with what your place of work demands for your respective pay.... sloth...
The list goes on.
If you do none of these.... many people would like to meet you and I cannot imagine why you don't have a hoard of followers...
I said in my response he was a sinner.If you are saying that Paul calling himself Chief doesn't necessarily mean he was a sinner, then you are agreement with me and disagreeing with the person i responded to. Maybe the mix of capital letters confused you?
We are sinners and that is why Christ gave of himself for us. But Paul was trying to make a point, not brag about his less-than-divine status.
So, you don't eat more than you need to.. gluttony, desire a new car, couch, house, trip abroad, boat... Covetousness , look at a woman or man and feel attracted ++.... Lust, do something for yourself where others concerns may be put aside for your own desires... selfishness, put a duty off till another day or not keep pace with what your place of work demands for your respective pay.... sloth...
The list goes on.
If you do none of these.... many people would like to meet you and I cannot imagine why you don't have a hoard of followers...
I said in my response he was a sinner.
How do you explain Paul saying he is not only A SINNER but a chief among sinners?
Standing against God is sin.
Being afraid of a mans reaction is not standing against God.
Being accused of sinning, is not the measure of Sin.
Standing against God is the measure of Sin.
The Spirit of God dwelling within Peter, is notice, he could not sin.
What was Peter's sin ?
And where is the Scripture, that he repented of the so- accused sin?
God Bless,
SBC
We've been over this issue before in another thread so I see no need to readdress your objection since I already pointed out the fault in your argument. I see your belief as heterodox at best and heretical at worst. You of course are entitled to believe as you wish so no need to discuss further.The correct interpretation is; you are forgiven and sin no more.
Not true.
No kidding. How could a man BE FORGIVEN of sin, IF he was "WITHOUT" sin?
Correct.
"believer", does not mean, Saved or Born Again.
"having faith", does not mean, Saved or Born Again.
Saved and Born again, means forever in Belief, means having received Gods forever faith-FULLNESS.
The FULLNESS, of the mans WHOLE, body, soul and spirit.
Anyone can believe, have faith, and then STOP believing, and STOP having faith.
It is a believer, who CAN SUBMIT and THEN by Gods ACT, become FORGIVEN.
It is believing men who MAY or MAY NOT, become Saved and Born Again.
It is believing men, that ARE SUBMISSIVE AND become FORGIVEN (by God), that become Saved and Born Again.
IF you study Scripture from the beginning of mankind -
You would find;
God announcing Himself, God revealing His Power, God proving by foretelling and then it coming to pass.
THAT did not change, and was the SAME, when Jesus arrived on Earth.
WHAT DID change, with GOD, was the AMOUNT of information that was given to mankind.
In the beginning of mankind ~ man was likened to a babe, a child. Taught as a child. Lots of rules, laws, prohibitions, and consequences. And missing, like with little children? Reasoning skills necessary for "understanding". Early man, "understood" little. They were immature, without history, without examples. They were like babes. Do this, period. If you do not, this is the consequence. Period.
WHAT did CHANGE, was mankind. They grow, have generations of examples, history to observe, see what happens, WHEN one obeys God and WHEN one doesn't. They mature, in using examples, as their guide, for what is not clear in their understanding.
People became lost, to hearing, seeing Gods power, waiting for the foretelling to come to pass, losing faith, because they do not SEE anything coming to pass. Their impatience overcomes them. Many begin adopting what other cultures do, ie ways of the world.
Jesus arrives on earth. He comes to rejuvenate the lost, those without faith, those who have become impatient, those who have adopted the ways of the world.
Jesus is announced, He reveals speaking the Word of God, He begins revealing His Power, via miracles; THEN, some get it, some do not. IT? What is it? Lo and behold, He IS the Christ. The one they HAVE been waiting for. IS He, He?
But, but, he is "just" a man. Nothing special about him. eh, He's from Nazareth, for crying out loud, ha, ha, a nobody. Not a king, "just", another poor 'ole prophet without wealth, or positional power, eh,
another peddler of prophecy. Or so, many thought!
You know the story, Jesus chooses men to follow Him, the Pharisees get all jealous for the crowds Jesus draws. THEN Jesus begins announcing; HE IS "thee" Son of God! HIS FATHER, IS GOD!
WHAT? WHOA! Oh, no,no,no,no,no! He is making Himself equal to God! He is making Himself God!
DEATH TO HIM! DEATH TO HIM! No one is EQUAL TO GOD! Blasphemy! Blasphemy! Death to Him!
Of course, those were the Jews charges, per their law. And the Romans' law rules the day. And no Roman law allows for Jews to carry out a death sentence for a man. So the story goes all the sneaky twisting of accusations, from the Jews to the Romans in an attempt to get the Romans to find Jesus guilty of something. That failed. However one Roman law, DID provided at a particular time, for prisoner exchange of one Jew for another, and Jesus' was party to that exchange, and thus the Jews accomplished getting rid of Jesus. So, they thought!
Now, ON TO THE POINT -
From the beginning ~ to Christ the Lord Jesus' day ~ to this day ~ ALL the knowledge has been uncovered and revealed that is necessary for a man to pick and choose, to BELIEVE or NOT.
It has over the centuries become RELAXED, from God treating mankind LIKE A BABE, to God treating mankind as men capable of being "full" of knowledge. The Pastors are plentiful around the world. The Script is written and plentiful around the world. The only EXCUSE, is on a man, WHO foregoes and chooses to NOT hear, NOT read. Which, according to God, IS NO EXCUSE, because nothing remains secret or hidden, and He is known world wide. So a man's stubbornness to reject, and the consequence thereof, is his own choice.
Now, continuing with RELAXED. In the OT; repent and believe, was nearly equally mentioned, some 40 + times.
In the NT; repent is nearly the same as in the OT; some 40+ times. And believe, is mentioned some 260 + times.
I am not saying to REPENT is not necessary - what I am saying is to NOTICE the FOCUS is ON BELIEF.
Which is to say, what was from OLD, had an enormous FOCUS on NEGATIVE consequences, according to the Law of Moses.
The progression HAS changed to the POSITIVE of BELIEF. Man does not acquire "faith" by his own initiative. Man can simply be aware, and choose to believe. It is God who gives him "faith".
A man who chooses, must first be aware of WHAT he can choose.
And that "awareness" NOW fills the world. God, Christ, is known WORLD WIDE.
It is NOW a simple matter of INDIVIDUAL men, choosing to Believe, "or not".
So what was Jesus' directive to His servants?
Matt 28: [19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teach AND Baptize, in specifically; the Father name, the Son's name, the Holy Spirit's name.
We see, the teaching commencing. We see Peter, a find example...
Acts 2
- [38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
We also see, the teaching
Acts 8
[12] But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
The "things concerning the kingdom of God", is about an everlasting place WITH God. One receiving the baptism of Jesus Christ, allows "them" into the Kingdom of God. And on that premise, they submitted and were baptized.
Where did their "repentance" come into the mix?
Men can teach, but then WHO KNOWS, what they retain and comprehend?
POINT BEING, "WE" do not do the forgiving, God does.
POINT BEING, "WE" can simply BELIEVE and SUBMIT, And God does the changing within a man, and keeping of him.
1 John 3:7 is preceded by; 1 John 3:2 which says;
[2] Beloved, now are we the sons of God...
1 John 3:7 is speaking to;
[7] Little children
What are "little children" ? They are believers, baptized in the Holy Spirit, but NOT STEEPED in the Word of God.
It it sort of backwards. When we observe Jesus' disciples. They spent 3 years daily, hours on end, hearing, learning, receiving the Word of God. BEFORE they were baptized in the Holy Spirit.
Thereafter, they were, along with other men, sent out to Baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit.
The churches, particular, identified in Revelations, received some visits of teachers, some letters from teachers, and the same was to other places disciples and teachers traveled and visited.
A pale comparison to what the disciples of Jesus received, in their daily 3 year communication with Jesus, eh?
The history, from the beginning, of strict laws and rules, and the disciples daily with Jesus, to shortly after Jesus' day on earth, to now - is much more relaxed, to God's focus on mankind's BELIEF and SUBMISSION to God.
Believe and Be Baptized. That is not to say, forget about repentance, or forget about continued learning;
But is is to say; It is revealed, God is wrapping up things.
A mans BELIEF and SUBMISSION to BAPTISM; IS a man, God is claiming unto Himself.
And a man God IS claiming unto Himself, God Himself, dictates the changes in a man, that IS, acceptable to God, to KEEP the man unto Himself forever.
The "little children", saved and born of God, or those "mature, steeped in knowledge and understanding" who are saved and born of God, are equally, acceptably claimed by God.
Neither will falter and ever AGAIN SIN. Never again will their standing be Against God.
They will forever have God WITH them.
Will they have issues, trespasses, with man against man? Sure. And the remedy is for forgiveness BETWEEN men.
Sin, is an issue BETWEEN man and God. And for a man WHO is born of God, that issue is resolved.
God Bless,
SBC
I agree.Yes we are still sinners, though hopefully to a lesser extent.
I disagree.Even as a Christian it is still possible to commit mortal sins and go to Hell.
Eat what I want, when I want. Buy, and actually PAY for what I want, when I want. Enjoy observing people, and animals also. Desire them or want them sexually? No. Lazy and selfish? No
Perhaps that paints you a blunt, mental image of a well to do, selfish, sexually starved, fat pig.
I know where I stand with God, and I understand how to be a servant to Him, and the measure by which He blesses me. I have all of my needs and wants met, because I know, debt is a deal breaker thus avoid it. We set a goal, we work, God blesses us to obtain our goal of what we want. Simple! As well, I do not want everything I see. Heck, where can one PUT it all, if they have everything! And WHO wants to clean, and polish tons of junk? I don't! But I can enjoy the seeing, the interest, the talent of others, without wanting what others have. I have a bigger desire to give, more than receive. Always, as I remember being that way, but give credit and thanks to God, as I find that a blessing. Slothful? No. There have been a very few times in my life I have not felt good, and back-off on doing work, But then I have an awesome spouse who is with me, that we keep each-other uplifted in Christ and personally one to the other in all things concerning who are one, in Christ.
Why I don't have a hoard of followers? Why would I?
We've been over this issue before in another thread so I see no need to readdress your objection since I already pointed out the fault in your argument. I see your belief as heterodox at best and heretical at worst. You of course are entitled to believe as you wish so no need to discuss further.
No, that is not my point. My point is that those of you that under the illusion of being sinless, as opposed to covered by the blood, sin and you don't even realize it or recognize it.Are you meaning those are things you, yourself, desire?
Check the older threads.... this topic has been hashed to ribbons many times.What did you say? I missed it.
No, that is not my point. My point is that those of you that under the illusion of being sinless, as opposed to covered by the blood, sin and you don't even realize it or recognize it.
I know a lot of true Christians and every single one of them sins.... I've seen it, I've done it and many of them were Pastor's, Deacons, Elders and Youth Pastors.....True people of God, sound Christians and bound for an eternal life of Paradise.
I wouldn't suggest that anyone was or wasn't a sinner.....Whether they be in the bible or not. I only asked a questions about a statement that was made. If you say you are one who sins and know you will sin in the future....I say, you are right and i believe you. I would not, however, believe that everyone would be in this same condition.I said in my response he was a sinner.
How do you explain Paul saying he is not only A SINNER but a chief among sinners?
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