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mindlight

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That's the best argument yet I have heard for his existence.


Create an empire of conformity and pretend it was a work of God. Yes there are distorted echoes of earlier Christian writings in the Quran. In fact the religion was a means of establishing political unity and a reason for conquest. Seems an accurate summary to me. Mohammed may well have existed but a myth was crafted from his life and words which has little to do with God.

I was thinking this today. In Christ we have a freedom. In each person there is a universe of possibility. What Christ releases when we enter into his grace can appear incredibly messy and disorganised to someone from the outside looking in. Each person is different and the song of praise that they sing is different too. Christian pluralism and diversity is a distraction to those who want an earthly unity and kingdom. The idea that our unity is in Christ rather than an emperor is a problem for many. But in sense that is the essence of freedom. We are not slaves to some earthly imperial order but rather freed to live for Christ. The diversity, creativity and richness of the Christian world by comparison to that of Islam is testimony to the freedom we have in Christ. We are the children of the free woman Sarah not the slave woman Hagar. If Islam has any divine root then it comes from the blessing God gave to the slave child Ishmael. But that blessing was inferior to the one given to the free child Isaac.
 
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SolomonVII

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While I am not the most religious of men, not one who is quick to believe in supernatural causes, it does seem to me that one of the most extraordinary prophecies that is still playing itself out today, thousands of years after the fact, is the real differences between the blessings given to Isaac, son of Sarah, and Ishmael, son of the Hagar.
It really is all about freedom, even still. Both have had 'great nation' status, with Sarah's progeny counting the Christians among them.
But the 'freedom' afforded to the Ishmaelis has been the freedom of a "wild ass of a man", never self-defined but always defined as kicking back resentfully at any authority.
It is the only freedom possible to a people still stuck in a slave mindset.

And most definitely, freedom is a messy affair. The early caliph who was all about destroying textual diversity for Islam was a keen observer of what Christian affairs really were like. Freedom opens us up to infinite possibilities, and as wondrous as that is, it is not without its share of conflict and noise.

But the price to be paid for by the Hagarites for their submission to the laws that the caliphs set forth for them has been the possibility of freedom entering into their lives.

The infamous quote of the former president was that they hate us for our freedom.

Hagar resents Sarah on account of her freedom, even today.
 
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Limo

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This is not a scientific logical severances at all, these are quackery, juggling, and sorcery
Following are list of errors in your comments:-
  • Christianity was not the dominated religion before Islam at least in Arabic Peninsula. Even is wasn't in the whole world review this map (http://www.mmdtkw.org/CRUS0109-PreIslam.jpg)
  • It never be that sites now holy to Islam were previously Christian
  • Dome of the Rock and Mount Temple were never holy for Christianity. Vice versa, Christians turned the area into dunghill before Moslems opens the city and clean it and turn it to Alaqsa Masjed (Mountain Temple under Byzantines) by Guy Le Strange, History of Jerusalem Under the Muslims
  • Abdulmalik Ibn_marwan the Caliph who built the building was Moslem
  • No one else said that "The building was almost definitely constructed by Christians" except for you
  • It's not true that Prophet kept the painting of El-Messiah and his mother. it's based on a rejected narrated historian
  • Early writing of Hadeeth was during Prophet life. There were a lot but here is a link to one of the earlis one less than 20 years of Prophet's death Sahifa Hamman B. Munabbih It's from mid-first half of Hijri calendar also "The Musannaf of `Abd al-Razzaq al-San`ani" Early Hadith writings
  • Mohamed محمد name is derived from the verb حمد thank. It's pure Arabic name. I reviewed the subject and found that there are 2 different coins a Byzantine one and an Islamic one there is a false mixing both as if name Mohamed is written and a cross on the same coin which is untrue.
  • Actually, what is written about the name Mohamed in the page refrenced by you is a proof that the name Mohamed is written in the New and Old Testimony is referring to Mohamed not El-Messiah
 
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Limo

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All your information is wrong, why don't you pay small effort in googling.
Local Arab rules of an Arabic Kingdom under Byzantine were called Ghassanids and their religion was Miaphysitism Christological formula of the Oriental Orthodox Churches


You said previously that Arabs chose Arianism as a kind of opposition and now you're saying it was religion of local ruler. choose one opinion.

You always call things with another name. You always mixing things to confuse people who doesn't know.
You've spent much effort to proof that Arianism is against Trinity even in the above and now you just learnt that Trinity was developed 60 years after Arin - Nicaea conflict

OK so there is no such thing as Ulamas , the Mutaween (Saudia Arabia) or the Basiji(Iran)?
Again and Again, you're mixing things and confuses who doesn't know.
You were talking about "dogmatic enforcement of interpretation" means an a spirtial authority like Vatican or head of the church.
The names above especially the Basiji in Iran is an intelligent department.
Mutaween are Saudis volunteers to watch abidance of people to practice Prayed on time, women to cover their heads
Ulama are scholars who studied Quran and Hadeeth. They enforce no one. Everyone tells his openion
 
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Limo

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You look like someone is working in an organization who has to write something.

What God says is all sufficient for me. What must be established is whether God has spoken. God is not a liar and I would not blaspheme Him by suggesting that words which are clearly false are of Him.

I was wondering if you apply what you're saying on your books



I was wondering how the final creed of belief of a certain religion is determined not by discussion between scholars but by imperial creeds.
It's Roman-Christianity, ask George Atwell


Don't be so sure about the scripts support of Trinity as non-Trinity churches are using same scripts.
What is the difference between actual church of God and the official state religion of the Byzantine empire? Byzantine empire creed that determined your creed of belief.

Nobody knows if there was an apostle called Thomas and if he said so or not.
I was wondering if something basic in your belief like "Jesus to be God the Son" or Trinity is depending on a short statement like this. It should have been very clear in your scripts in the first line in the first page.
Arianism never been defeated, it was not the state religion but Unitarian always existed all over the history till date.

All the Messianic Jews I have met have been Trinitarian so not sure what you meant there.

What Messianic Jews you've met?
Messianic Jews are all apostles, Jews who believed in El-Messiah, their history is in Gospels. El-Messiah himself is a Messianic Jew. They're monotheistic, they know/said nothing about Trinity, they lived and died as a Jew as per Moses Law.


The unity is in Christ Himself. None of the major denominations claim that it is impossible to be saved outside of their own group though historically some of the leaders have done so , often due to unhealthy political influences.
Do you bet on my ignorance?
You've to use the ward "major" as there are many.
There is no agreement about "Who is Christ ?" among different denominations.
Actually the main differences between denominations is about the nature of the Christ.
Denomination.
The discussion on the nature of Christ is the reason for dividing and exile from the heaven
This is what you and laws in this forum say.

You're not presenting your God, You're not sitting neither on Catholic Peter's chain in Vatican nor on Orthodox Mark's chain in Alexandria nor on many other chairs.

The Popes sits there who are speaking by Holy spirit (according to your and their belief) has a different opinion which is not able to change soon. They are the people who decides with the name of your God(according to your belief) who is going to survive or not.
If they give you "indulgence" then you're survived otherwise you're lost.

If you're neither Catholic nor Orthodox then both see you as non-Christian and will not survive. Sometimes they see Moslem has better chances than you
 
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Limo

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The earliest reference to Prophet in Non-Islamic writings
Doctrina Jacobi (July 634) :
When the candidatus was killed by the Saracens, I was at Caesarea and I set off by boat to Sykamina. People were saying "the candidatus has been killed," and we Jews were overjoyed. And they were saying that the prophet had appeared, coming with the Saracens, and that he was proclaiming the advent of the anointed one, the Christ who was to come. I, having arrived at Sykamina, stopped by a certain old man well-versed in scriptures, and I said to him: "What can you tell me about the prophet who has appeared with the Saracens?" He replied, groaning deeply: "He is false, for the prophets do not come armed with a sword. Truly they are works of anarchy being committed today and I fear that the first Christ to come, whom the Christians worship, was the one sent by God and we instead are preparing to receive the Antichrist. Indeed, Isaiah said that the Jews would retain a perverted and hardened heart until all the earth should be devastated. But you go, master Abraham, and find out about the prophet who has appeared." So I, Abraham, inquired and heard from those who had met him that there was no truth to be found in the so-called prophet, only the shedding of men's blood. He says also that he has the keys of paradise, which is incredible. (Doctrina Jacobi V.16, 209. [p. 57])
 
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Limo

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You get freedom when you get ride of church authority and Christianity teachings.
Most of US and Europe are Atheist and no longer believe in Trinity God.

Wake-up, Christians world is not limited to US. Christian world includes Latin America, Eastern Europe, Russia, parts of Africa, Philippines,,,,

What unity in Christ where there are more than 80 denominations Churches and countless other Churches https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

We are the children of the free woman Sarah not the slave woman Hagar. If Islam has any divine root then it comes from the blessing God gave to the slave child Ishmael. But that blessing was inferior to the one given to the free child Isaac.
What ????
You are children of whom ????
Even not all Jews are children of Sarah.

Hagar was not a slave. Allah asked Ibrahim to marry her. She was a free woman.
Ismail was the first son of Ibrahim.
Ibrahim loved him a lot.
 
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mindlight

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Following are list of errors in your comments:-
Christianity was the dominant religion in the area that I was talking about (e.g. Israel, Syria and Egypt). The Dome of the Rock reference should have given you a geographical reference point there. But there was also a Christian presence across the whole Arabian peninsula. With whole towns and tribes being Christian in some places.

Jerusalem was ruled by the Byzantines. the church of the Holy sepulchre was built there before the Dome of the Rock was built. There is a picture of Mary and Jesus in the Kaaba. The Dome of the Rock was built in an architectural style that echoed that of other churches in the Orthodox world (e.g Chapel of Ascension on Mount of Olives in Jerusalem).
 
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SolomonVII

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Until we invent the time machine, we cannot be certain about almost anything in history, especially from such distant past. However, is it really important? Existed or not, fact or fiction, Muhammed does affect the present time. Therefore, he exists.
The idea of Mohammed exist. The myth of Mohammed indubitably exists.
 
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4x4toy

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Limo , If Allah sanctioned lying , Al Taqiyya in the Qu'ran how can you know Allah is the God of Abraham .. The God of Abraham does not lie and is not the father of lies ..
 
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4x4toy

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Limo , How do you know Muhammed was a son of Ishmael , did his genealogy trace back naming each father back to Ishmael or maybe only 3,4 maybe 5 you and I ?

Ishmael was never a Muslim , neither was Abraham .. , neither were any of the Prophets in the Torah , neither was Jesus , neither are you .. Though you may be of Ishmael descent , and I am of Lebanese descent "Grand mother" .. There is only one God and he never revealed his name until Jesus . You cannot dispute the Truth only deny it ..
 
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SolomonVII

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Anything that people believe in, indubitably exists for them.
But, any historical claims, even if believed, may or may not exist, not just in the imagination, but in reality too. People whose worldview rests on the veracity of an historical claim inevitably want to have some historical verification, and to know what the best evidence is.
 
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Limo

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No body can dispute the truth. The question is "What is the Truth ?"
Even though, whenever you know the Truth, no guarantee that you accept it.

The problem is that your knowledge About Arabs and Jews are a few.
Arabs especially in Arabic Peninsula at the time of the Prophet used to keep track of the genealogy till Ismail if they're descendants of Ismail.
The answer of your question, Yes the genealogy of the Prophet till Ismail is well know and documented. All the Prophet's tribe Quresh is the main descendants of Ismail.

Yes, There is only one God. You must know "Who is he ?" Is he one/two/three ? His name? Capability ? his commands ? his mercy ? punishment ? his penalties to disobedient ?
Otherwise, you'll get lost

On what bases, you say neither Ibrahim, nor Ismail, nor El-Messiah, nor me are Muslims ? Even nothing in your books say so. Can you provide references even from your books ?
My book states (you disbelieve in it ) all of these are Muslims.

I've references but you don't. (What is the truth even for each one for his own ?)
 
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Limo

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Limo , If Allah sanctioned lying , Al Taqiyya in the Qu'ran how can you know Allah is the God of Abraham .. The God of Abraham does not lie and is not the father of lies ..
Allah is the God of all and everything.

Did I say any lies here ?
 
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Limo

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Until we invent the time machine, we cannot be certain about almost anything in history, especially from such distant past. However, is it really important? Existed or not, fact or fiction, Muhammed does affect the present time. Therefore, he exists.

I agree with you somehow.
There are always signs for history. If these signs are authenticated then we're certain about history known by these signs.

If somebody didn't exist, then all his production is useless.
It's really matter for believer to be certain about their sources.

The signs of Prophet Mohamed are huge that can't be ignored.

When Michael H. Hart tried to rank the most From the 100, a Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History he chose Prophet Muhammad on top for the following reasons:
  • He was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular levels.
  • Muhammad played a far more important role in the development of Islam than Jesus did in the development of Christianity.
  • It is probable that the relative influence of Muhammad on Islam has been larger than the combined influence of Jesus Christ and St. Paul on Christianity
  • Furthermore, Muhammad (unlike Jesus) was a secular as well as a religious leader. In fact, as the driving force behind the Arab conquests, he may well rank as the most influential political leader of all time.
  • This unparalleled combination of secular and religious influence which I feel entitles Muhammad to be considered the most influential single figure in human history.
After that someone close his room and eyes and say Muhammad didn't exist
 
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4x4toy

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Allah is the God of all and everything.

Did I say any lies here ?

Limo , you did lie for side stepping the truth . The question was "did Allah tell you it is right to lie Al "Taqiyya" in the Qu'ran ? If he did then he is a lier and is the father of lies .. The God of Abraham does not lie and has never told anyone to lie .. No need to answer if you can't , it's OK , I know both God and the truth , why did God send the prophets then Jesus in the first place ? There are no ancient prophecies that apply to Muhammed .. All prophesies fit and were prophesied of Jesus alone as the one ..
 
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Limo

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No, you were talking about Arabs.
another mistake, Israel doesn't exist before 1947.
Yes, there was but not dominant.
Church of the Holy sepulchre is completely away from Dome of the Rock. There was never in relationship between both.

Its architecture and mosaics were patterned after nearby Byzantine churches and palaces. The two engineers in charge of the project were Raja ibn Haywah, a Muslim theologian from Beit She'an and Yazid Ibn Salam, a non-Arab who was Muslim and a native of Jerusalem (ref https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dome_of_the_Rock)

According to the Oxford Archaeological Guide to the Holy Land, "Abd al-Malik's purpose was more complex and subtle." He wished to erect a beautiful Muslim building that could compete with the majestic churches of Christendom and would be a symbolic statement to both Jews and Christians of the superiority of the new faith of Islam. "His building spoke to Jews by its location, to Christians by its interior decoration."

I think hist statements have been read by Christians and Jews.

The end result is Holy of Holies never been holy for Pauline-Christianity.
Christians tuned it into dunghill and get cleaned by Muslims.
Jews were more than happy with what Muslims did in Jerusalem when we've taken it over from Christians. They can pray freely and visit the place of Holy of Holies after 500 years of sanction, killing, and destroying their holy places.
 
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