Did Jesus save us from God?

[Ceallaigh]

Being gamey again?

sigh

 

[Aussie Pete]

Since He is the Savior and the One who we must give an account at the Judgment seat of Christ , He is also the one who delivers the Wrath of the Lamb at His 2nd Coming in vengeance. Revelation 6 and Revelation 14. The terrifying Day of the Lord told by many OT prophets and Jesus tells us in Matthew 24. The Lord will Judge His people. Its a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the Living God. Vengeance is Mine and I will repay says the Lord. Hebrews 10. Jesus told us the Father judges no one and has given all Judgment to the Son, John 5.

hope this helps !!!

Not at all. The opposite of what I was saying. How about "Well done, good and faithful servant"? How about, "None shall pluck them out of my hand"? How about, "I will never leave you or forsake you"?

Some Christians seem to love the idea of people suffering in hell. God takes no delight in the death of the wicked. Why should we? Christians need a revelation of God's love for them. Obedience is easy when you know that God loves you and wants the best for you.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Not at all. The opposite of what I was saying. How about "Well done, good and faithful servant"? How about, "None shall pluck them out of my hand"? How about, "I will never leave you or forsake you"?

Some Christians seem to love the idea of people suffering in hell. God takes no delight in the death of the wicked. Why should we? Christians need a revelation of God's love for them. Obedience is easy when you know that God loves you and wants the best for you.

I never said I or God delights in it but the facts are the facts it is a reality, a real place just the same as heaven is a real place where real people will be for eternity.

 

[Saint Steven]

I never said I or God delights in it but the facts are the facts it is a reality, a real place just the same as heaven is a real place where real people will be for eternity.

That is what is up for debate here. Therefore, your views are only one opinion.

Yes, facts are facts. And someone else's facts are facts as well. What else would the facts be, other than facts? - lol

 

[Clare73]

Not at all. The opposite of what I was saying. How about "Well done, good and faithful servant"? How about, "None shall pluck them out of my hand"? How about, "I will never leave you or forsake you"?

Some Christians seem to love the idea of people suffering in hell. God takes no delight in the death of the wicked. Why should we? Christians need a revelation of God's love for them. Obedience is easy when you know that God loves you and wants the best for you.

As long as they understand that could include trial and suffering. . .because it is best for them.

 

[Clare73]

That is what is up for debate here. Therefore, your views are only one opinion.

Yes, facts are facts. And someone else's facts are facts as well. What else would the facts be, other than facts? - lol

Up for debate in your mind. . .not in the mind of God or his word.

 

[Faith Unites]

As long as they understand that could include trial and suffering. . .because it is best for them.

Could lol. I thought God wanted me rich powerful and healthy?!!!!!

 

[Clare73]

Could lol. I thought God wanted me rich powerful and healthy?!!!!!

Yeah. . .I saw a lot that wasn't that. . .and got separated from that idea a long time ago.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Up for debate in your mind. . .not in the mind of God or his word.

Yes the LORD Himself declares there is eternal torment that never ends.

Mark 9:42-48
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

"'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'

Matthew 8:11-13
11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 13:41-43
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Matthew 13:49-50
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 22:13-14
"Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Matthew 24:48-51
48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:29-30
29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


2 Peter 2:1-9
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them — bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.


Jude 1:4-7, Jude 1:12-13
4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home — these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm — shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted — twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars — their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Revelation 19:20-21
20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Revelation 20:10
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Scripture uses these terms and phrases as synonyms:

Unquenchable fire
Fiery hell
Black darkness
Outer darkness
Furnace of fire
Fire and brimstone
The smoke of their torment
The lake of fire which burns with brimstone
Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched
The eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels


All of the above carry the same meaning and consequences for the wicked.

conclusion: a person must come to the bible already with a bias to deny the above are facts taught in scripture that just as there is eternal bliss for the righteous there is also eternal torment for the wicked. It reveals Gods Justice. Some just oppose Gods Justice because they think they are more fair then God and they lower God to their own standards of what is just.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Clare73]

Yes the LORD Himself declares there is eternal torment that never ends.

Ah. . . but that is not enough, some deny the meaning of "eternal," like the ole' serpent.
"Hath God said?" (Genesis 3:1)

Jesus said in Matthew 25:46 that when he comes to judge the world the righteous will go away to "eternal life" and the unrighteous will go away to "eternal punishment."

The Greek word translated "eternal" there is aionios, and its meaning is disputed by the deniers of eternal punishment.

But when you consider all the verses where aionios is used in the NT where its meaning is indisputable, then you can know its meaning in "eteranl punishment" of Matthew 25:46 (not to mention its parallel there with "eternal" life).

In the following verses, aionios is used of things that we know are without end, unending, therefore, we know that aionios means "without end, unending."

Romans 16:26 - "eternal God" = we know God is without end,
1 Timothy 6:16 - "eternal might" = we know God's might is without end,
1 Peter 5:10 - "eternal glory" = we know God's glory is without end,
Hebrews 9:14 - "eternal Holy Spirit = we know the Holy Spirit is without end,
Hebrews 9:12 - "eternal redemption" = we know redemption is without end,
Hebrews 5:9 - "eternal salvatin" = we know salvation is without end,
2 Peter 1:11 - "eternal kiingdom = we know the kingdom is without end (Luke 1:33),
John 3:16 - "eternal life" = we know eternal life is without end (John 10:28)
2 Corinthians 5:1 - "eternal house" = we know the resurrection body is without end (1 Corinthians 15:53).

Aionios is used 68 times in the NT to mean "without end,"
and twice as undefined, and not necessarily without end (Romans 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9).

Therefore, we know the meaning of aionios (eternal) in
Matthew 25:46 = "eternal punishment" is punishment without end (John 5:29) in the
Matthew 18:8 = "eternal fire" without end, (Mark 9:43, Luke 3:17)
for those whose names are not in the Book of Life (Philippians 4:3),
see Revelation 20:12, Revelation 20:15, Revelation 21:27.

The issue is: do we believe him or not. . .we know what he said.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I also think justice is important and I'm sur punishment would often be required after death, but restorative punishment which, by its nature, would be time limited because there is an end result, i.e. reconciliation with God and so it will end once that has been achieved. I can't think of a better word to describe punitive punishment for an eternity than sadistic, can you? And, like you, I believe that God isn't sadistic.

About the Hitler-types, I don't believe that they or anyone else go to heaven until they are fully restored to God so I don't think the scenario you describe would ever happen - I think it just comes from a misperception of Christian universalism. I agree though that it would be wrong if it did.

"Restorative punishment"? You might have to explain to me how this concept is found anywhere in the Bible ...

I mean, it might be there, and although like you I've read and studied the entire biblical corpus for some time it's just that unlike you, I'm not seeing it. So help me out here.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Ah. . . but that is not enough, some deny the meaning of "eternal," like the ole' serpent.
"Hath God said?" (Genesis 3:1)

Jesus said in Matthew 25:46 that when he comes to judge the world the righteous will go away to "eternal life" and the unrighteous will go away to "eternal punishment."

The Greek word translated "eternal" there is aionios, and its meaning is disputed by the deniers of eternal punishment.

But when you consider all the verses where aionios is used in the NT where its meaning is indisputable, then you can know its meaning in "eteranl punishment" in Matthew 25:46.

In the following verses, aionios is used of things that we know are without end, unending, therefore, we know that aionios means "without end, unending."

Romans 16:26 - "eternal God" = we know God is without end,
1 Timothy 6:16 - "eternal might" = we know God's might is without end,
1 Peter 5:10 - "eternal glory" = we know God's glory is without end,
Hebrews 9:14 - "eternal Holy Spirit = we know the Holy Spirit is without end,
Hebrews 9:12 - "eternal redemption" = we know redemption is without end,
Hebrews 5:9 - "eternal salvatin" = we know salvation is without end,
2 Peter 1:11 - "eternal kiingdom = we know the kingdom is without end (Luke 1:33),
John 3:16 - "eternal life" = we know eternal life is without end (John 10:28;),
2 Corinthians 5:1 = "eternal house" = we know the resurrection body is without end (1 Corinthians 15:53).

Therefore, we know the meaning of aionios (eternal) in
Matthew 25:46 = "eternal punishment" is punishment without end (John 5:29) in the
Matthew 18:8 = "eternal fire" without end, (Mark 9:43, Luke 3:17)
for those whose names are not in the Book of Life (Philippians 4:3),
see Revelation 20:12, Revelation 20:15, Revelation 21:27.

The issue is: do we believe him or not. . .we know what he said.

Its a word game but as we know Jesus tells us what eternal means in those passages I quoted because He says their torment never ends it continues without end. Where the fire is never quenched. Tormented day and night and it never ends. There judgment said Jesus while continuing their punishment and suffering. So they can play the word games but the context contradicts their own definition.

 

[Clare73]

sigh

Okay, help me out here, for I also am somewhat afflicted.

Help me see how you understood it to mean the opposite.

 

[Hmm]

"Restorative punishment"? You might have to explain to me how this concept is found anywhere in the Bible ...

I mean, it might be there, and although like you I've read and studied the entire biblical corpus for some time it's just that unlike you, I'm not seeing it. So help me out here.

Well, I'm not an expert in Koine Greek so I of course I can only defer to those who are but everything I've read on the subject says that Jesus only spoke of ”aionios kolasis” which means corrective punishment (kolasis) for a time limited duration (aionios) whereas the Pharisees spoke of "adialeiptos timoria" which means everlasting vengeful punishment. Most English Bibles translate "aionios kolasis" as "eternal punishment" but I believe - or rather most scholars believe - that that is a simple mistranslation.

 

[Clare73]

Well, I'm not an expert in Koine Greek so I of course I can only defer to those who are but everything I've read on the subject says that Jesus only spoke of ”aionios kolasis” which means corrective punishment (kolasis) for a time limited duration (aionios) whereas the Pharisees spoke of "adialeiptos timoria" which means everlasting vengeful punishment. Most English Bibles translate "aionios kolasis" as "eternal punishment" but I believe - or rather most scholars believe - that that is a simple mistranslation.

Let me jump in here. . .then you guys can continue.

Let's talk about kolasis (punishment).
First of all, it is used twice in the NT, following, and it means to curtail, prune, dock.

In 1 John 4:18, "Fear has punishment (torment--kolasis) [fear is punishing--kolasis] and he who fears is not perfect in love."
The punishment there is that sense of sin which induces a slavish fear, which
is a docking, curtailing, pruning of perfect love.
Fear docks, curtails, restrains (punishes) the enjoyment of love.

In Matthew 25:46, "eternal punishment" would be an unending restraining/curtailing imprisonment
(as in 1 Peter 3:19, 2 Peter 2:4, 2 Peter 2:9; Jude 6)--not just a pruning, and in agreement with the multitude of Scriptures where Jesus presents unending punishment in Gehenna (Mark 9:43, 45, 47-48;
Matthew 5:22, 12:31, 13:30, 18:8-9, 25:41, 46; Luke 16:24).

Take it away and polish it up.

 

[DamianWarS]

You'd think if God is perfect in every way: Then His wrath is perfect

God's wrath is a product of his perfection. Absolute perfection cannot be mixed with imperfection so the perfection ineffect wipes out the imperfection. This is the point of Christ as we get to wear his righteousness so that we may be in the presence of God.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I never said I or God delights in it but the facts are the facts it is a reality, a real place just the same as heaven is a real place where real people will be for eternity.

Why do you mention it? Do you imagine that I'm a universalist? I'm not. I'm not even talking about unbelievers. I was referring to Christians.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Why do you mention it? Do you imagine that I'm a universalist? I'm not. I'm not even talking about unbelievers. I was referring to Christians.

Can you link me to where you specified that I must of missed it. Thanks !

 

[Aussie Pete]

Can you link me to where you specified that I must of missed it. Thanks !

"Not from God, but from God's wrath. It is a vital distinction. He also saved us to God. We are adopted into His family. So much focus is on the negatives and not nearly enough on the positives of salvation."
My point is that there is an aspect of salvation that is overlooked much of the time. We are supposed to preach the whole counsel of God. It's necessary to preach the love of God as well as the wrath of God. I appreciate that I could have been clearer in my statement. I apologise for any confusion. Sometimes what I'm thinking does not translate as well in what I write.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

"Not from God, but from God's wrath. It is a vital distinction. He also saved us to God. We are adopted into His family. So much focus is on the negatives and not nearly enough on the positives of salvation."
My point is that there is an aspect of salvation that is overlooked much of the time. We are supposed to preach the whole counsel of God. It's necessary to preach the love of God as well as the wrath of God. I appreciate that I could have been clearer in my statement. I apologise for any confusion. Sometimes what I'm thinking does not translate as well in what I write.

We are all good thanks for clarifying it Aussie Pete !