True point,There is no such thing as non-alcoholic wine. Wine is produced by the fermentation of grape juice, and fermentation produces alcohol. Wine was the common drink of the time - for everyone. Why wouldn't it be?
What is dumb is that folks think that there is no such thing as wine that was not alcoholic. Just look at a dictionary and it will say wine can be either fermented or unfermented. There were ancient ways to preserve grape juice back in the day. Just Google it.
Generally, we call unfermented wine grape juice.
So I was thinking about this more as I have seen it come up on various threads (including my own).
I don't really know if this is a debatable topic, since the Greek word for wine is the same in John 2, as it is in say Ephesians 5:18 when it states "do not get drunk with wine", yet some still debate it...
The Greek word for wine: Oinos
Strongs Greek:
Strong's Greek: 3631. οἶνος (oinos) -- wine
A couple questions come to mind for those that believe Jesus made non-alcoholic wine.
1) Do you disagree with the original Greek word that is used? Do you have an alternate translation that you're working from?
2) How do you translate verses in the Bible where alcoholic wine is mentioned in a positive way? i.e. Ecclesiastes 9:7, Amos 9:14
3) Why would it be relevant if Jesus made alcoholic wine or not?
Hope to hear some of your thoughts CF.
Tetra
So I was thinking about this more as I have seen it come up on various threads (including my own).
I don't really know if this is a debatable topic, since the Greek word for wine is the same in John 2, as it is in say Ephesians 5:18 when it states "do not get drunk with wine", yet some still debate it...
The Greek word for wine: Oinos
Strongs Greek:
Strong's Greek: 3631. οἶνος (oinos) -- wine
A couple questions come to mind for those that believe Jesus made non-alcoholic wine.
1) Do you disagree with the original Greek word that is used? Do you have an alternate translation that you're working from?
2) How do you translate verses in the Bible where alcoholic wine is mentioned in a positive way? i.e. Ecclesiastes 9:7, Amos 9:14
3) Why would it be relevant if Jesus made alcoholic wine or not?
Hope to hear some of your thoughts CF.
Tetra
Bolded above....is this an estimate of yours or from a historical source? Just curious.
I would gather the percentage could be cut down even further for those who did not want to be impaired.
Ping for @Jason0047 who has done some research as well.
As a nursing student, I'm kind of confused by this reasoning as it would mean the vast majority of helpful medications wouldn't be permitted according to your perspective. The difference between a medicine and a poison is dosage. Do you also have this view regarding medication?To all:
The Nature of Alcohol
Alcoholic wine is a product of decay and death. God creates things that are full of life and things that are good. If you were to take alcohol and put it in a cup and then put some dirty coins in there, the alcohol would clean the coins. If you were to put a small piece of fruit or meat in the alcohol, it would dry it out. The alcohol has no understanding of being outside your body or inside your body. Soon as it enters the body, it does the same thing. It seeks to dry out things and to destroy your living tissue. But it is a good thing we have an immune system that can fight back so as to survive. In other words, alcohol is a very minor poison that your body can counter effects of whereby you will not die. But the abuse of this poison can easily kill you because of it's harmful effects.
I personally don't claim knowledge as to who will or will not be in heaven, if you do, rock on man. Regardless, it wont stop me from enjoying a brew.It’s not allowed as a daily lifestyle. Drunkerds will not inherit the kingdom
The 4 major views on Alcohol:
#1. Prohibitionist
Believes that the bible absolutely prohibits the consumption of alcoholic beverages; And it is a sin to drink it. This position is defeated by the fact that Timothy was told by Paul to have a little wine within his water for the infirmities of his stomach. This was not a medical prescription for everyday stomach problems but it was for the purification of water (because some people do not have the tolerance or immune system to handle it). Also, Romans 14 tells us that all things are indeed pure. So drinking can be permissible as long as one does not drink to get drunk or to make their brother to stumble. So the Prohibitionist view that it is a sin to drink wine is not necessarily spelled out to us in Scripture; And cannot be supported as a solid viable position.
#2. Abstentionist
Believes that the bible does not absolutely prohibit the consumption of alcohol but for numerous reasons, Christians should abstain from using it. In this view, any amount of drinking that causes one to not be sober in any way directly contradicts those passages that tell us to be sober minded. Also, this view holds that drinking should be done in private and not publicly where your brother could see you and stumble. This view recommends that while it is lawful for you to drink, it is not always profitable so it is highly encouraged to abstain from it. Not out of some sense of legalism but out of love for God, yourself and your brother. Thus, it preaches the reality of the dangers of alcohol and how it can bite you like a serpent (despite it being lawful).
#3. Undecided
Those that are not sure if drinking alcohol is right or wrong.
#4. Moderationist
Believes that alcoholic drinks are a gift from God that should be, like all of God’s gifts, consumed moderately. However, the problem with this view is that many of the Moderationists do not warn against the dangers of alcohol. They only paint half the picture that alcohol is good and they get overly defensive in their consumption of alcohol when encouraged to walk the higher road out of love and not as a commandment or legal law within God's Word. Many or most Moderationists believe they can even drink in front of others publicly because Jesus turned water into alcoholic wine publicly. Thus, many of them believe that public drinking could not lead a brother to potentially to stumble (When clearly such a reality could happen).
However, that said, I also believe there is a small number of responsible drinking moderationists who drink in a way to stay sober minded and who believe the proper thing to do is to preach against drunkenness strongly. These Moderationists do not want to do anything to make their brother to stumble. They drink knowing that the beverage they have in their hands is potentially dangerous but yet they drink soberly to the glory of God in private. However, in good conscience, it is my duty as a Christian to remind even these Christians that it can bite like a serpent if they start to forget the dangers of this deadly drug. In fact, it is my encouragement that they walk the higher road and show that they are different from the rest of the world. Again, not out of legalism, but out of love.
My viewpoint:
Oh, and so that there is no more confusion, I want to let people know that I am an "Abstentionist" and I believe that it is the Biblical view based on the whole of Scripture.
The Old Testament saints (Not the New Testament saints) were forbidden to even look at a strong alcoholic beverage let alone drink it. There were many warnings against drinking strong alcoholic Studies have shown light consumption of alcohol is linked to living longer. There have been numerous studies showing this through the years.
Drinking alcohol was linked to longevity in a new study
During the Roman era there was no way to store grape juice without it being spoiled by bacteria, fermenting to wine, or turning to vinegar. Fresh squeezed grape juice was available during the grape harvest. After this whatever had not been turned to wine, vinegar, or raisins would have spoiled as pasteurization was not known. Alcohol kills bacteria and that preserves the wine. Alcohol has calories in it the body may use as fuel. It also has polyphenols that are useful.
Jesus drank wine and they called him a drunkard.
Mathew 11:19 (WEB) The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' But wisdom is justified by her children."
John the Baptist did not drink wine and they said he had a demon (Luke 7:33).
Excessive alcohol consumption is carcinogenic, can cause a plethora of diseases and resulted in auto accidents.
Would it be reasonable to suggest you maybe defending you're position as it's what you "want to see"?A person will defend alcohol because that is what they want to see.
As a nursing student, I'm kind of confused by this reasoning as it would mean the vast majority of helpful medications wouldn't be permitted according to your perspective. The difference between a medicine and a poison is dosage. Do you also have this view regarding medication?
(side note, from a chemistry perspective, you're incorrect but I won't debate that issue here)
Would it be reasonable to suggest you maybe defending you're position as it's what you "want to see"?
My point was just that if you want to hold the view that one shouldn't drink alcohol because it could potentially cause alcohol poisoning, it could be argued that you couldn't even drink water, since 6L < 3hrs will also poison you... to the point of death. You're argument about the nature of alcohol is invalid. However, I would like to read the verses you presented... I think that may present a stronger argument.You usually need a prescription for strong medications; And there are warning labels even on aspirin not to exceed the dosage or there are certain side effects. People can be very dumb. It's a fact of life. They may ignore these warnings but it is not wise. People have even eat poisonous things (that is not food) like the tide pod challenge. Alcohol is sold as something you can drink. It is a mild poison. But it technically not a food because most alcoholic drinks do not have nutrition labels on them. See. I know alcholic drink is a poison. But most people do not know this. They think it is a food when it is not a food. Sure, you can drink it, but your body has to fight off it's poisonous effects. If you take alcohol and put it in a glass and then put a penny in there, it is going to clean the penny of it's dirt. The alcohol has no knowledge of being in a glass cleaning a penny vs. cleaning your insides out. It seeks to destroy and it does not seek to give you any kind of nutrition.
Yes, some alcoholic beverages do have nutrition labels on them, but these are beverages that are lower in alcoholic content. This is why the Israelite drank alcohol diluted with water. God did not want his people being drunk back then anymore than he wants them drunk today.
It's not like food. You don't get instantly fat the second you over eat. But you do get drunk if you overdrink. God wants us to be sober minded in the New Testament.
So you're essentially saying, others haven't researched this topic to the degree you have, so they see what they want to see, and your view on alcohol is infallible?Not at all. I once considered that the alcoholic position was true. But then the deeper I studied Scripture and history on this topic, the more I learned that this was not the case. I believe people defend the alcoholic view because that is what they want to see.
For just look at Dictionary.com's third definition. The word wine can mean fermented or unfermented. Also, try Googling ancient methods of preserving grape juice. Such a thing existed back then.
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