Did Jesus empty out both sides of the underworld ?

[Jeff Saunders]

This is for those who believe that Jesus went to the land or realm of the dead before his rising from the grave, its not a discussion about whether it happened . So if you do believe that Jesus went and preached to the dead and he lead the captives free , do you think he emptied one side or both ? Let me know what you think and why,

 

[Der Alte]

This is for those who believe that Jesus went to the land or realm of the dead before his rising from the grave, its not a discussion about whether it happened . So if you do believe that Jesus went and preached to the dead and he lead the captives free , do you think he emptied one side or both ? Let me know what you think and why,

The grave/hades is never called prison in the Bible and prison is never called the grave/hades.
If Jesus' purpose in preaching to the "spirits in prison" was their salvation, it was a failure, only eight were saved and they were alive, not dead when they were saved.

1 Peter 3:18-20
(18) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
(19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
(20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.​

 

[Jeff Saunders]

The grave/hades is never called prison in the Bible and prison is never called the grave/hades.
If Jesus' purpose in preaching to the "spirits in prison" was their salvation, it was a failure, only eight were saved and they were alive, not dead when they were saved.

1 Peter 3:18-20​

(18) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:​

(19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;​

(20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.​

boy you lost me on this one , usually I understand what you are saying maybe I am looking at your post wrong , but you say the grave is never called a prison then you give a verse that says he preached to the spirits in prison ? I see Eph 4:8-9 and Ps 68:18 Eph 4:8 When he ascended on high he captured captives he gave gifts to men vs9 he descended to the lower regions of the earth. Ps 68:18 You ascend on high you have taken many captives , You receive tribute from men including even sinful men . So from this I get the idea that captives means that they are held someplace by someone or something and that Jesus set them free. and in the passage that you gave seems to me about the same thing . I see these verses as why I think both sided were emptied out because in 1Pet I see the just for the unjust as those not on Abrahams side which to me are the same as those in Ps 68:18 men including even sinful rebels . Also as a UR guy this fits with the idea of Apokatastasis .
















abr







abr

 

[DragonFox91]

From what I understand, when you died before Jesus, you had 2 options: either you went to the realm of the dead & had some kind of limited conscious, or went to heaven. Jesus’s descent allowed more of those dead into heaven if you were incredibly righteous like Elijah. There weren’t free & unfree, they were all unfree, captive to death. I have no idea how many were saved, the 8 in that verse is referring to those who were on the Ark.

 

[Der Alte]

boy you lost me on this one , usually I understand what you are saying maybe I am looking at your post wrong , but you say the grave is never called a prison then you give a verse that says he preached to the spirits in prison ? I see Eph 4:8-9 and Ps 68:18 Eph 4:8 When he ascended on high he captured captives he gave gifts to men vs9 he descended to the lower regions of the earth. Ps 68:18 You ascend on high you have taken many captives , You receive tribute from men including even sinful men . So from this I get the idea that captives means that they are held someplace by someone or something and that Jesus set them free. and in the passage that you gave seems to me about the same thing . I see these verses as why I think both sided were emptied out because in 1Pet I see the just for the unjust as those not on Abrahams side which to me are the same as those in Ps 68:18 men including even sinful rebels . Also as a UR guy this fits with the idea of Apokatastasis .

You ain't going to like my answer. If I'm wrong, please show me where either grave or hell is ever called "prison?" What was Jesus earthly ministry?

Luke 4:18-19
(18) The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
(19) To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.​

Jesus' ministry did not involve preaching to anyone in in hell or the grave. There are no poor, brokenhearted, captives, blind or bruised in the grave, only dead bodies. The word translated "captives" literally means "prisoners of war."

 

[Jeff Saunders]

You ain't going to like my answer. If I'm wrong, please show me where either grave or hell is ever called "prison?" What was Jesus earthly ministry?

Luke 4:18-19​

(18) The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,​

(19) To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.​

Jesus' ministry did not involve preaching to anyone in in hell or the grave. There are no poor, brokenhearted, captives, blind or bruised in the grave, only dead bodies. The word translated "captives" literally means "prisoners of war."

did not Jesus say that God was the God of the living , in Matt 22:31-32 Now as for the resurrection of the dead , have you not read what was spoken to you by God. " I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"? He is not the God of the dead but the living! I understand this as the people thought Jesus was only there for them not those who died , but Jesus didnt see them as dead and gone only their mortal body was dead but we are not our body this is just a tent we live in for a short time. He say them as living.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

From what I understand, when you died before Jesus, you had 2 options: either you went to the realm of the dead & had some kind of limited conscious, or went to heaven. Jesus’s descent allowed more of those dead into heaven if you were incredibly righteous like Elijah. There weren’t free & unfree, they were all unfree, captive to death. I have no idea how many were saved, the 8 in that verse is referring to those who were on the Ark.

No, before Yeshua's death only Eliyahu and Hanokh were taken. Before Yeshua's death, everyone went to sheol...

 

[YeshuaFollower]

This is for those who believe that Jesus went to the land or realm of the dead before his rising from the grave, its not a discussion about whether it happened . So if you do believe that Jesus went and preached to the dead and he lead the captives free , do you think he emptied one side or both ? Let me know what you think and why,

Jesus did none of that, when we die, the soul is at rest until GOD resurrects us, there are many passages in the bible pointing to the rest or loss of consciousness of the soul in the bible. here is one verse about it;

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Blessings.

JFF

 

[DragonFox91]

No, before Yeshua's death only Eliyahu and Hanokh were taken. Before Yeshua's death, everyone went to sheol...

Not sure what w/ the 3 dots.....

 

[Der Alte]

did not Jesus say that God was the God of the living , in Matt 22:31-32 Now as for the resurrection of the dead , have you not read what was spoken to you by God. " I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"? He is not the God of the dead but the living! I understand this as the people thought Jesus was only there for them not those who died , but Jesus didnt see them as dead and gone only their mortal body was dead but we are not our body this is just a tent we live in for a short time. He say them as living.

Am I missing something? How does this address my post #5?

 

[Blade]

The Scriptures offer no second chance for those who have died with out Christ. Now some believe "spirits in prison" were the fallen angels and others believe or speculate that He preached to the wicked dead and gave them a second chance to be saved.

One said "Preached may mean simply that the reported to them saints in prison whoever they were his vicarious suffering and impending resurrection the thought being not of appeal but of announcement. "

Not here to debate or should I really say speculate on that which is not written

 

[The Righterzpen]

This is for those who believe that Jesus went to the land or realm of the dead before his rising from the grave, its not a discussion about whether it happened . So if you do believe that Jesus went and preached to the dead and he lead the captives free , do you think he emptied one side or both ? Let me know what you think and why,

Interesting question. Do you mean "Abraham's bosom" and "hell" (I,E. two parts of Sheol)?

Psalm 86:13 uses the phrase "lowest hell" (Deuteronomy 32:22 explains what that is.)
Psalm 88:6 uses the term "lowest pit"

And the speaker says he was delivered from both. Obviously psalms can be prophetic / Messianic. So thus if only those who've blasphemed the Holy Spirit are unredeemable; than Jesus would have had to bear the capacity to "reach" the "lowest pit" / "lowest hell"; or in the capacity of how it applies to sinner to be redeemed.

Is there a "lower pit" for disobedient angels that Christ would not have to had contended with? I don't know the answer to that question. Since there's no redemption plan for angels anyways; that question is irrelevant.

 

[Saint Steven]

Sorry, Jeff.

These respondents are unable to follow simple instructions. (not a debate about the Harrowing of 'Hell")

I would say both sides, but I believe there was really only one, so ALL were resurrected.

 

[Lost Witness]

Neither, the Saints that arose after the LORD had died weren't in hell but in GODS rest

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Sorry, Jeff.

These respondents are unable to follow simple instructions. (not a debate about the Harrowing of 'Hell")

I would say both sides, but I believe there was really only one, so ALL were resurrected.

the only reason I said both sides is because of the rich man and Lazarus but being a parable it might not be literal , some say that it was one big holding tank I dont think its a hill to die on.

 

[Der Alte]

Interesting question. Do you mean "Abraham's bosom" and "hell" (I,E. two parts of Sheol)?
Psalm 86:13 uses the phrase "lowest hell" (Deuteronomy 32:22 explains what that is.)
Psalm 88:6 uses the term "lowest pit"
And the speaker says he was delivered from both. Obviously psalms can be prophetic / Messianic. So thus if only those who've blasphemed the Holy Spirit are unredeemable; than Jesus would have had to bear the capacity to "reach" the "lowest pit" / "lowest hell"; or in the capacity of how it applies to sinner to be redeemed.
Is there a "lower pit" for disobedient angels that Christ would not have to had contended with? I don't know the answer to that question. Since there's no redemption plan for angels anyways; that question is irrelevant.

Abraham's bosom is not a place, it is a position. It is the position at a feast or meal immediately in front of or to the right of the host. In Bible times people were not seated in chairs at a waist high table they reclined on their left elbow with their feet extended out away from a low table. That is how an unknown woman was able to wash Jesus' feet with her tears and dry them with her hair. A woman did not crawl around under a table around the legs of strange men.
In John 13:23 when one of the disciples leaned on Jesus' bosom, he was leaning back so he could look in Jesus' face.
Sheol was a place that someone could be saved from. I don't think that is the grave.

Proverbs 23:13-14
(13) Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
(14) Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.[​

שׁאול/sheol]​

 

[The Righterzpen]

Abraham's bosom is not a place, it is a position. It is the position at a feast or meal immediately in front of or to the right of the host. In Bible times people were not seated in chairs at a waist high table they reclined on their left elbow with their feet extended out away from a low table. That is how an unknown woman was able to wash Jesus' feet with her tears and dry them with her hair. A woman did not crawl around under a table around the legs of strange men.
In John 13:23 when one of the disciples leaned on Jesus' bosom, he was leaning back so he could look in Jesus' face.
Sheol was a place that someone could be saved from. I don't think that is the grave.

Proverbs 23:13-14​

(13) Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.​

(14) Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.[​

שׁאול/sheol]​

If you believe a soul is a real thing (though not "material" as a body is); than when someone dies, the soul "goes somewhere".

In the parable; "Abraham's bosom" was not a position; it was a place. Someone could "be in position" of "being in danger of hell" (under judgement) but not there yet, because they are still a whole living entity.

"Being in position of" ultimately can lead to "being in the place of".

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Abraham's bosom is not a place, it is a position. It is the position at a feast or meal immediately in front of or to the right of the host. In Bible times people were not seated in chairs at a waist high table they reclined on their left elbow with their feet extended out away from a low table. That is how an unknown woman was able to wash Jesus' feet with her tears and dry them with her hair. A woman did not crawl around under a table around the legs of strange men.
In John 13:23 when one of the disciples leaned on Jesus' bosom, he was leaning back so he could look in Jesus' face.
Sheol was a place that someone could be saved from. I don't think that is the grave.

Proverbs 23:13-14​

(13) Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.​

(14) Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.[​

שׁאול/sheol]​

Isn't this the source you like using? ABRAHAM'S BOSOM - JewishEncyclopedia.com

 

[Saint Steven]

the only reason I said both sides is because of the rich man and Lazarus but being a parable it might not be literal , some say that it was one big holding tank I dont think its a hill to die on.

That's actually a really good point.
And I often tie the chasm in the story of the rich man and Lazarus to this scripture below.
The question is, at what point was the chasm created? Was it always there, or the result of something?
Jesus was still alive, not yet crucified nor risen, having taken captivity captive. Who that was, is another mystery.
Those who were disobedient in the days of Noah? Is that it? - LOL --- Why?

John 5:24 NIV
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me
has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

 

[The Righterzpen]

the only reason I said both sides is because of the rich man and Lazarus but being a parable it might not be literal , some say that it was one big holding tank I dont think its a hill to die on.

Yeah, the Abraham's bosom detail is perplexing. If there's any additional information about that concept some place else in the Scripture? I don't know where it is.

Jesus was still alive, not yet crucified nor risen, having taken captivity captive. Who that was, is another mystery.
Those who were disobedient in the days of Noah? Is that it? - LOL --- Why?

Good question.

There's only one passage I can think of that is relative to this question; but it's talking about disobedient angels. 2 Peter 2:5.

That very well may be the actual "unbridgable chasm". I don't know. It does seem though that's where the Medieval church got some of these concepts of "degrees of hell" from. Although I think that's more applicable to the Lake of Fire; in terms of the concept of punishing disobedient angels at least.

John 5:24 "crossing over" from death to life; I think has it's application to those who escape the judgment of God prior to death; on account of the atonement.