Did Jesus Die Spiritually?

[tdidymas]

Semper Reformanda members only, Thank you.

I'm looking for sincere and knowledgeable answers, not a debate. I have discussed this question with two reformed theologians so far, and they both differ in opinion, and have good reasons for doing so. Therefore, without giving a history of discussion, if you have expertise in this area, please answer these two questions (or three):

IF you believe Jesus died spiritually, how do you account for God not separating from Himself ontologically, that is, separation between the Father and the Son (unless you think He did)?

IF you believe Jesus did not die spiritually, how do you account for Jesus' "forsaken" statement that was not an ontological forsaking while he was still alive on the cross?

Related to: Was Jesus cry of being forsaken limited to his feelings in the flesh, or did the Father actually forsake His Son in the spirit (and if so, how is this accounted for)?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I'm looking for sincere and knowledgeable answers, not a debate. I have discussed this question with two reformed theologians so far, and they both differ in opinion, and have good reasons for doing so. Therefore, without giving a history of discussion, if you have expertise in this area, please answer these two questions (or three):

IF you believe Jesus died spiritually, how do you account for God not separating from Himself ontologically, that is, separation between the Father and the Son (unless you think He did)?

IF you believe Jesus did not die spiritually, how do you account for Jesus' "forsaken" statement that was not an ontological forsaking while he was still alive on the cross?

Related to: Was Jesus cry of being forsaken limited to his feelings in the flesh, or did the Father actually forsake His Son in the spirit (and if so, how is this accounted for)?

The only way to understand what Jesus Christ means by "Eli Eli Lama Sabachthani"? is to read Psalm 22 in its entirety. Jesus Christ of Nazareth fulfilled this prophetic psalm.
Be blessed

 

[GospelS]

Jesus was conceived, born, and lived by the power of the Holy Spirit. He was upon that cross experiencing crucial pain. If He was spiritually dead, He would not be able to hold any of that. Since He was spiritually alive and strong, He endured all suffering, even until death. His Spirit was still obeying The Father on that cross. Spiritually dead person cannot do what Christ did while on that cross.

 

[eleos1954]

Semper Reformanda members only, Thank you.

I'm looking for sincere and knowledgeable answers, not a debate. I have discussed this question with two reformed theologians so far, and they both differ in opinion, and have good reasons for doing so. Therefore, without giving a history of discussion, if you have expertise in this area, please answer these two questions (or three):

IF you believe Jesus died spiritually, how do you account for God not separating from Himself ontologically, that is, separation between the Father and the Son (unless you think He did)?

IF you believe Jesus did not die spiritually, how do you account for Jesus' "forsaken" statement that was not an ontological forsaking while he was still alive on the cross?

Related to: Was Jesus cry of being forsaken limited to his feelings in the flesh, or did the Father actually forsake His Son in the spirit (and if so, how is this accounted for)?

Luke 23:46

Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit (breath)." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

When Jesus died on the cross, all our sins—without exception—were transferred to Him. He was without sin, for He was God in human flesh. But as He died all our sins were placed on Him, and He became the final and complete sacrifice for our sins. And in that moment He was banished from the presence of God.

His cry speaks of this truth; He endured the separation from God that you and I deserve.

 

[tdidymas]

Luke 23:46

Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit (breath)." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

When Jesus died on the cross, all our sins—without exception—were transferred to Him. He was without sin, for He was God in human flesh. But as He died all our sins were placed on Him, and He became the final and complete sacrifice for our sins. And in that moment He was banished from the presence of God.

His cry speaks of this truth; He endured the separation from God that you and I deserve.

This doesn't answer the questions. Can you please look at them more carefully and give a full account?
TD

 

[public hermit]

how do you account for God not separating from Himself ontologically, that is, separation between the Father and the Son (unless you think He did)?

Does separation in the divine unity entail a separation in the divine essence? The separation, assuming for the sake of argument that one occurred, happened between Persons, i.e. between Father and Son. Does that entail a separation in essence? I don't know. But I think the way you're phrasing your question is a bit misleading.

You say, "How do you account for God not separating from Himself..." God is not a Person. God is Three Persons (hypostases) and One essence. There is a not a fourth Person called "God." So, if we are talking about separation, there is not so much a problem with entertaining the idea that the 1st Person "turned away" from the 2nd Person (the 2nd Person was "forsaken," whatever that entails). I think the main question is can the divine essence be separated. Or, maybe better, if there was a separation, did the 2nd Person cease to be of the One Essence of God?

 

[eleos1954]

This doesn't answer the questions. Can you please look at them more carefully and give a full account?
TD

It is ontologically impossible for there to be a "split" between any persons of the eternal Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity, simply defined, is that within the nature of the one true God there are three eternal, distinct Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three Persons are the One God.

Jesus was and is fully God and fully man ... the trinity is in tact.

His "spirit" (breath that sustained His human life) nothing more nothing less returned to God (i.e. He breathed his last) same as with all humans when we die.

Ecclesiastes 12:7

Contemporary English Version
So our bodies return to the earth (dust), and the life-giving breath returns to God.

Jesus was resurrected and His body saw no corruption(decay) ... because He was without sin. He experienced human death but did not turn to dust such as we do.

Acts 13:37
Berean Study Bible
But the One (Jesus) whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.

God the father removed His presence (no communication/interaction) with the son. Jesus being in the form of a man experienced separation from God the father (communication/interaction).

 

[disciple Clint]

Semper Reformanda members only, Thank you.

I'm looking for sincere and knowledgeable answers, not a debate. I have discussed this question with two reformed theologians so far, and they both differ in opinion, and have good reasons for doing so. Therefore, without giving a history of discussion, if you have expertise in this area, please answer these two questions (or three):

IF you believe Jesus died spiritually, how do you account for God not separating from Himself ontologically, that is, separation between the Father and the Son (unless you think He did)?

IF you believe Jesus did not die spiritually, how do you account for Jesus' "forsaken" statement that was not an ontological forsaking while he was still alive on the cross?

Related to: Was Jesus cry of being forsaken limited to his feelings in the flesh, or did the Father actually forsake His Son in the spirit (and if so, how is this accounted for)?

Jesus is one person who has two natures , Divine and human. He is 100% God and 100% man. Obviously God cannot die but His human nature can have the separation of the soul from the body which is what happens to humans at death. So it can be truly said that Jesus experienced death or as close to death as He could considering His two natures. Regarding His recitation of Psalm 22, He was pointing out that He was fulfilling that prophecy. He was never rejected by the Father and that could not happen.

 

[tdidymas]

Does separation in the divine unity entail a separation in the divine essence? The separation, assuming for the sake of argument that one occurred, happened between Persons, i.e. between Father and Son. Does that entail a separation in essence? I don't know. But I think the way you're phrasing your question is a bit misleading.

You say, "How do you account for God not separating from Himself..." God is not a Person. God is Three Persons (hypostases) and One essence. There is a not a fourth Person called "God." So, if we are talking about separation, there is not so much a problem with entertaining the idea that the 1st Person "turned away" from the 2nd Person (the 2nd Person was "forsaken," whatever that entails). I think the main question is can the divine essence be separated. Or, maybe better, if there was a separation, did the 2nd Person cease to be of the One Essence of God?

Would you then call what you're describing "spiritual death"?
TD

 

[tdidymas]

It is ontologically impossible for there to be a "split" between any persons of the eternal Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity, simply defined, is that within the nature of the one true God there are three eternal, distinct Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three Persons are the One God.

Jesus was and is fully God and fully man ... the trinity is in tact.

His "spirit" (breath that sustained His human life) nothing more nothing less returned to God (i.e. He breathed his last) same as with all humans when we die.

Ecclesiastes 12:7

Contemporary English Version
So our bodies return to the earth (dust), and the life-giving breath returns to God.

Jesus was resurrected and His body saw no corruption(decay) ... because He was without sin. He experienced human death but did not turn to dust such as we do.

Acts 13:37
Berean Study Bible
But the One (Jesus) whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.

God the father removed His presence (no communication/interaction) with the son. Jesus being in the form of a man experienced separation from God the father (communication/interaction).

What kind of separation was this? What does "removed presence" mean? is this something happening only in the human nature of Christ (realm of feelings), or was it a spiritual separation?
TD

 

[tdidymas]

Jesus is one person who has two natures , Divine and human. He is 100% God and 100% man. Obviously God cannot die but His human nature can have the separation of the soul from the body which is what happens to humans at death. So it can be truly said that Jesus experienced death or as close to death as He could considering His two natures. Regarding His recitation of Psalm 22, He was pointing out that He was fulfilling that prophecy. He was never rejected by the Father and that could not happen.

I see you describing the physical death of Christ, but can you please answer the questions? What was the extent of his cry of being forsaken?
TD

 

[public hermit]

Would you then call what you're describing "spiritual death"?
TD

Honestly, I'm not sure what that means. I am thinking here of the "Harrowing of Hell," which I know is its own can of worms. The doctrine is based on a mere two passages, but affirmed in the Creed. Assuming as much, when Christ descended into hell, he went to the farthest depths of human experience separated from the Father. If that is what "spiritual death" means, then we might say that is what he experienced. If by "spiritual death" one means a kind of spiritual annihilation, then no. We might say, he went to the limits of human experience apart from the Father (of course, the Father is ubiquitous, so...). And, being incarnate, he took his divinity with him, to put it roughly. Were either of those (humanity/divinity) annihilated in the process? No. I guess that would be my stated position, but I'm up for correction. Part of the problem is: what does his descent into hell entail? I don't know. I don't really want to know.

 

[eleos1954]

What kind of separation was this? What does "removed presence" mean? is this something happening only in the human nature of Christ (realm of feelings), or was it a spiritual separation?
TD

an analogy ....

you call me on the phone .... I am standing right in front of the phone ... I do not answer.

Does that mean I am not there? No

By not answering the phone I am not communicating with you.

Because of the lack of communication from the Father he experienced separation (no communication from the Father).

even so .... Jesus trusted the Father fully.

Spiritual

the term “spirituality” as applied to biblical faith is understood to refer to that relationship between God and man ... not a relationship between God and God ... again the trinity (never severed, always in tact) ... One God consisting of three persons.

Jesus was/is both God and man.

 

[tdidymas]

Honestly, I'm not sure what that means. I am thinking here of the "Harrowing of Hell," which I know is its own can of worms. The doctrine is based on a mere two passages, but affirmed in the Creed. Assuming as much, when Christ descended into hell, he went to the farthest depths of human experience separated from the Father. If that is what "spiritual death" means, then we might say that is what he experienced. If by "spiritual death" one means a kind of spiritual annihilation, then no. We might say, he went to the limits of human experience apart from the Father (of course, the Father is ubiquitous, so...). And, being incarnate, he took his divinity with him, to put it roughly. Were either of those (humanity/divinity) annihilated in the process? No. I guess that would be my stated position, but I'm up for correction. Part of the problem is: what does his descent into hell entail? I don't know. I don't really want to know.

Do you believe that people are naturally in spiritual death prior to being born again?

Then when Heb. says he tasted death for every man, does this means spiritual death?

Then if it means physical death, then why did Jesus taste death for the human race, since the death rate is still 100%?

Do you understand what I'm getting at?
TD

 

[tdidymas]

an analogy ....

you call me on the phone .... I am standing right in front of the phone ... I do not answer.

Does that mean I am not there? No

By not answering the phone I am not communicating with you.

Because of the lack of communication from the Father he experienced separation (no communication from the Father).

even so .... Jesus trusted the Father fully.

Spiritual

the term “spirituality” as applied to biblical faith is understood to refer to that relationship between God and man ... not a relationship between God and God ... again the trinity (never severed, always in tact) ... One God consisting of three persons.

Jesus was/is both God and man.

I think I understand you saying that the separation was not spiritual, correct?
Then the separation you're talking about what only in his physical nature?

And then the lack of communication you're talking about is simply the Father stopped talking to him?

So if that's the deal, then was God talking to Jesus constantly before that?

I'm just trying to catch your vision of it.
TD

 

[JM]

"tasted death" was a Jewish saying according to John Gill. It show sup in Matthew 16:28, Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27, John 8:25 and Hebrews 2:9. Gill explains, Christ tasted death as "as a surety, in their room and stead, and that not for every individual of mankind; for there are some he knows not; for some he does not pray; and there are some who will not be saved: the word "man" is not in the original text, it is only (uper pantov) , which may be taken either collectively, and be rendered "for the whole"; that is, the whole body, the church for whom Christ gave himself, and is the Saviour..."

"in a spiritual sense, whose nature he assumed, (Hebrews 2:16)"

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[disciple Clint]

I see you describing the physical death of Christ, but can you please answer the questions? What was the extent of his cry of being forsaken?
TD

Regarding His recitation of Psalm 22, He was pointing out that He was fulfilling that prophecy. He was never rejected by the Father and that could not happen.

 

[tdidymas]

Regarding His recitation of Psalm 22, He was pointing out that He was fulfilling that prophecy. He was never rejected by the Father and that could not happen.

Ok, beside it being obvious he was fulfilling that prophecy, are you saying that the full extent of his cry was a fulfillment of prophecy, and had nothing to do with any actual forsaking?

I'm sure you realize that some say that he was rejected by the Father (or separated from), and they have what appears to be valid reasons for coming to that conclusion. Can you give some reasoning as to why you conclude that he was not rejected?
TD

 

[tdidymas]

"tasted death" was a Jewish saying according to John Gill. It show sup in Matthew 16:28, Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27, John 8:25 and Hebrews 2:9. Gill explains, Christ tasted death as "as a surety, in their room and stead, and that not for every individual of mankind; for there are some he knows not; for some he does not pray; and there are some who will not be saved: the word "man" is not in the original text, it is only (uper pantov) , which may be taken either collectively, and be rendered "for the whole"; that is, the whole body, the church for whom Christ gave himself, and is the Saviour..."

"in a spiritual sense, whose nature he assumed, (Hebrews 2:16)"

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Not sure what you're point is. Can you clarify?
TD

 

[disciple Clint]

Ok, beside it being obvious he was fulfilling that prophecy, are you saying that the full extent of his cry was a fulfillment of prophecy, and had nothing to do with any actual forsaking?

I'm sure you realize that some say that he was rejected by the Father (or separated from), and they have what appears to be valid reasons for coming to that conclusion. Can you give some reasoning as to why you conclude that he was not rejected?
TD

Yes that is what I am saying. We could get into some deep theological discussions about this but to keep things simple, God is three persons and one nature, that nature is God, God cannot reject God.