Did Jesus die in order to bring us back to how Adam and Eve were before the fall, or to better?

[com7fy8]

There are people who say Jesus died in order to restore us to how Adam and Eve were in the Garden before they fell. Is salvation meant to bring us back to how things were in the Garden before the fall?

Ones say Adam and Eve had fellowship with the LORD, but lost that relationship. Does salvation return us to how Adam and Eve were relating with the LORD before their fall, or does Jesus bring us to better?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yahweh's Purpose through Yahshua (Jesus) is BETTER , greatly better than just to restore innocence and fellowship that was shared in the garden.
CHRIST'S LIFE is granted to Ekklesia born again by the Father's Will from Heaven, not just (as if) pure human life - CHRIST'S LIFE ! Resurrection Life ! As described throughout the NT. (likely OT also, to be seen later perhaps) ...

 

[Kiterius]

There are people who say Jesus died in order to restore us to how Adam and Eve were in the Garden before they fell. Is salvation meant to bring us back to how things were in the Garden before the fall?

Ones say Adam and Eve had fellowship with the LORD, but lost that relationship. Does salvation return us to how Adam and Eve were relating with the LORD before their fall, or does Jesus bring us to better?

What would possibly be better than being spiritually alive, being physically and psychologically perfect, and enjoying fellowship with God?

 

[Saint Steven]

The relationship is restored, but we still live on a fallen planet with all the consequences of that.

 

[Kiterius]

The relationship is restored, but we still live on a fallen planet with all the consequences of that.

Which is why God's mission includes redeeming all of his Creation rather than just humanity.

 

[Chinchilla]

There are people who say Jesus died in order to restore us to how Adam and Eve were in the Garden before they fell. Is salvation meant to bring us back to how things were in the Garden before the fall?

Ones say Adam and Eve had fellowship with the LORD, but lost that relationship. Does salvation return us to how Adam and Eve were relating with the LORD before their fall, or does Jesus bring us to better?

Better fellowship I'd say . Adam was not in heaven but in paradise on earth , moreover he was not born of God but in image of God , he could reproduce but we who are saved won't reproduce .

We will be able to eat like Jesus showed us after his resurrection , doing sacrifices is not a sin aswell Jesus is the high priest and he will observe all the feasts for 1000 years in his kingdom , meaning passover aswell and the day of atonement . What we will do after the 1000 years kingdom we don't know . People still can sin in the kingdom while in heaven they can't . So the Kingdom will be like the paradise but not heaven .

 

[Kiterius]

Better fellowship I'd say . Adam was not in heaven but in paradise on earth , moreover he was not born of God but in image of God , he could reproduce but we who are saved won't reproduce .

We will be able to eat like Jesus showed us after his resurrection , doing sacrifices is not a sin aswell Jesus is the high priest and he will observe all the feasts for 1000 years in his kingdom , meaning passover aswell and the day of atonement . What we will do after the 1000 years kingdom we don't know . People still can sin in the kingdom while in heaven they can't . So the Kingdom will be like the paradise but not heaven .

Adam wasn't in heaven, and our home as Christians isn't heaven - at least not our permanent home. God created humans to live on Earth, and living on Earth in fellowship with God is for us life as it should be.

 

[Chinchilla]

Adam wasn't in heaven, and our home as Christians isn't heaven - at least not our permanent home. God created humans to live on Earth, and living on Earth in fellowship with God is for us life as it should be.

Matthew 6:19-21 King James Version (KJV)
19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

John 15:18-27 King James Version (KJV)
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

 

[Kiterius]

Matthew 6:19-21 King James Version (KJV)
19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

John 15:18-27 King James Version (KJV)
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Right now, things are prone to death and decay because the Creation is fallen. On the New Earth, when Christ brings God's Kingdom into its fullness, such will not be the case. The world does hate Christians - that is, the current world systems do.

 

[Erik Nelson]

God's decrees are never broken

God decreed death upon Adam and Eve and humanity for disobedience

humankind existed under death until the Cross, when God's decree was satisfied, satisfying God's Justice so as to enable Mercy

 

[paul1149]

It will be much better. First of all, we will have the Fall behind us. Been there, tried that, got the T-shirt; won't do it again. Fool me once... etc. So our innocence won't be as naive as that of Adam and Eve. We will never forget what Messiah did for us.

But we also have a greater destiny now than Eden can offer. New Jerusalem descends as a kind of portal between Heaven and Earth, with everything made new, and God's presence will be perfect among us.

Jesus' prayer the night He was taken was that we would be one, as He is one with the Father:

that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. [Jhn 17:21 NASB]​

That's an amazing communion. We have a taste of it here and now, but then it will be perfect and unopposed. This is far better than an evening stroll in the Garden.

Jesus is the God-man. He also is the "first-born of many brothers". John accordingly tells us:

Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. [1Jo 3:2 NASB]​

 

[Inkfingers]

The thing is...humanity are not saved so much as killed off.

Yes, seriously.

“if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.” (2 Corinthians 5:17)

“For we know that our old self was crucified with him” (Romans 6:6)

“I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.” (Galatians 2:20)

Ponder those for a while, especially that last one because its ramifications are enormous!

 

[~Anastasia~]

There are people who say Jesus died in order to restore us to how Adam and Eve were in the Garden before they fell. Is salvation meant to bring us back to how things were in the Garden before the fall?

Ones say Adam and Eve had fellowship with the LORD, but lost that relationship. Does salvation return us to how Adam and Eve were relating with the LORD before their fall, or does Jesus bring us to better?

You asked in Traditional Theology.

What I'm aware of is that it has generally been accepted that Adam and Eve were created "very good" and in communion with God, the world was not fallen, and there was no death, decay, corruption, sin.

The created order will be restored to that original state (in the sense there will be no death, corruption, sin, or other effects of fallen-ness).

Adam and Eve, however, had some maturing they needed to do. They tried to jump ahead of God's plan and gain knowledge prematurely, through sinning. We can expect, having undergone the process of being made more like Christ in cooperation with the grace of God, that our state is destined to be perfected beyond that which Adam and Eve were created into. After all, they were susceptible to being tempted and so caused the fall - we hardly want that process starting all over with any of us! God's plan is for a new age, so in many ways we will enjoy a better situation and communion than that Adam and Eve had.

This is the ancient understanding. I'm not aware if any other Tradition has added to it or changed it.

 

[com7fy8]

Is salvation meant to bring us back to how things were in the Garden before the fall?

About how the Garden was >

@Chinchilla > Our Apostle Paul says >

"because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God." (Romans 8:21)

We "the children of God" will be resurrected into Jesus Christ's own glory (John 17:22-26, with 1 Corinthians 15:42-44). So, I can see how Paul means that the whole earth will be resurrected into Christ's glory, so it "also" is in our "glorious liberty". So, this could be better than how the Garden was.

Does salvation return us to how Adam and Eve were relating with the LORD before their fall, or does Jesus bring us to better?

@paul1149 > Yes, I would say, "much better" > It looks like Adam and Eve got away from the LORD, even before they fell, so then they got relating with the Serpent. Then, it seems to me, Jesus came along, walking in the Garden, after being away from them, for that while. If this is true, now we certainly do better, by not taking time out from the LORD.

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

@Kiterius > So, God wants us to constantly be sharing with Him in His own peace while He is ruling us at every moment in His own peace. I would say this is better than how Adam and Eve were relating with God . . . if they did get away from constantly walking with Him and then even falling.

Also, our Apostle Paul says we are destined "to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (in Romans 8:29)

@Inkfingers > In consideration of your quote of Galatians 2:20 > If we are conformed to the image of Jesus > God can not sin > James 1:13. Jesus growing in us as our new inner Person (Galatians 4:19), I find, more and more shares with us His nature not to be capable of sinning. We are not perfectly like Jesus, now, though, but don't we find it more and more easy, then, to keep from sinning? And we are more and more life-giving like Jesus in us (Galatians 2:20, 1 John 4:17-18), able to minister God's own grace to bless one another > 1 Peter 4:9-10 < to make us more and more perfect in God's love > 1 John 4:17 < so we are "as He is" "in this world."

Jesus rose "a life-giving spirit", Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:45. But Adam was only a "living soul". It does not say he was "life-giving".

So, if the Bible does mean that Adam was perfect and > @Anastasia > "very good", but only as a creature . . . even now we could be doing better, spiritually. Even right in this evil world's "crooked and perverse generation", we can "become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation", by doing "all things without complaining and disputing" > Philippians 2:13-16.

 

[Inkfingers]

We are not perfectly like Jesus, now, though,

I'm sorry, but which part of "it is no longer I that live, but Christ in me" fits with this line of thinking.

Saved people die. Their old self is as dead as a corpse on a cross. Their old self is REPLACED by Christ.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Folks - please read the Statement of Purpose for Traditional Theology. It is about discussion of beliefs as related to what has been handed down to us by the Apostles. It is not a place for debate, or even for speculations.

I'm not looking to limit the discussion. If that sort of thing is wanted, we can ask for a move. But I don't want to see anyone getting censored for posting against the rules.

Just want to head things off before we go that way.

Thanks everyone!

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

If Christ was merely returning us to a state of being like Adam and Eve then we could fall again (since they fell in the first place), so I conclude that Christ is making us even more perfect.

God didn't create us perfect, he created us good with the capacity to grow.

 

[com7fy8]

We are not perfectly like Jesus, now, though,

I'm sorry, but which part of "it is no longer I that live, but Christ in me" fits with this line of thinking.

Saved people die. Their old self is as dead as a corpse on a cross. Their old self is REPLACED by Christ.

I'm going by how Hebrews 12:4-11 says every child of God is getting correction.

Also, right while John was receiving the vision of Revelation, he fell down to worship an angel . . . not what Jesus living in him would do.

But we are growing in Jesus.

Also, Peter, even after he was filled with the Holy Spirit, played the hypocrite > Galatians 2:11-13.

So, even while Jesus was using His apostles, they still could sin.

So, according to your definition of "saved", they were not saved, if I understand you correctly.