Did Jesus descend into Hell?

Jim B · Mar 4, 2004

enoch son said:
He went down there to be burned up! His body had taken on all sin for all time. It burned up therefore so was all sin. 1 peter 1-12, 1 Cor. 3- 12-14, ROMANS 10-6-7 And Eph. 9-10

e. This sounds like Seventh Day Adventist's "annihilation of the soul" teaching. Do you believe that?

I was raised SDA and have often thought that they had a point worth thinking about but am firmly a believer in the more orthodox teachings on hell.

This would also make an interesting thread.

\o/

Gary777 · Mar 4, 2004

andry said:
Hal raised a very good point. By the way, you're not really 91 are you?? And Gary777, I see you're passionate about this subject - wonderful.

Anyways, Hal raised a good point, and I haven't seen it raised anywhere in this thread (if I missed it, I apologize), but didn't Jesus say to the thief "TODAY you will be with me in Paradise." So no disagreement Jesus was 'dead' for three days and three nights, but not all that time was spent in hell/hades/place of the dead - it would seem to me Jesus actually spent very little time there; less than a day.

Comments?

Ithink its supposed to read:
Luk 23:42 And he said, Jesus, remember me when thou comest in thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today: thou shalt be with me in Paradise.

It is perfectly possible to translate it like this, and it actually gives sence that jesus use the word 'today' when you read it with verse 42. (If the sentence stand alone it seems forced.) "remember me when you come in thy kingdom" and jesus promises him "i say to you today (now) : you will be with me in my kingdom". He will not only remember him when he comes, but he settles the case there and then through a promise that he will be with him when he comes in his kingdom.

Gary777 · Mar 4, 2004

hal said:
He told the thief he would be with him in Paradise.
I believe that was abraham's bosom, or the "cool" side of Hell.
I believe that is also where the old testament saints were on "lay away" until the cross. Jesus preached to them and I believe those who accepted the gospel were resurrected with him.
Paradise is not Heaven.

hal, i dont know hwat you mean by paradise is not heaven. I may think that paradise is in heaven as opposed to be exactly the same, but i don't think it is two different things/places. You remember paul in 2 cor 12 talking about his visit to heaven? he calls it the third heaven and he in the same passage calls it paradise, so it obviously is the same place.

2Co 12:2 ...such a one caught up even to the third heaven.
and
2Co 12:4 how that he was caught up into Paradise,...

Gary777 · Mar 4, 2004

Andrew said:
harmony,

If you want more scripture support, and a clearer argument, you can read my notes here:

http://sg.geocities.com/saltandlight5/giants.html

It explains in detail what this verse means:

1 Peter 3:19,20
19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison
20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

andrew, i think this theory is really interesting. i was shocked once when i did a study on the giants how much the bible talked about them, and how they was used strategically to try to hinder Gods people in OT to take the land - and that was after the flood, but they was actually descents of the nephilim, the fallen angel/man clone thingy. Weird stuff, but it is in the word of god. Interesting also to think about in all the cloning debates going on nowadays. Get chuck misslers teaching on this from koinonia house on the net. (i dont agree myself on all of it, but its intruiging, thats for sure)

Gary777 · Mar 4, 2004

Trish1947 said:
If Jesus came to fulfill all rightousness, and the meaning of all the Livitical sacrifices this is a very good link to explain how he fullfilled them all.

http://www.tbm.org/jesussuffershell.htm

Hi trish,
are you somehow linked to this tom brown? i saw that guy doing delivarance meetings on CNN in a reportage about exorcism, of all places. it was awsome. In my experience, most people who do power ministries like him holds to this view on jesus' death. I think it is because of their faith in the awsome victory the ressurection represents when this view is taught. - kenyon, john g lake, all the wof people, faith-cure peopl of old. Btw, i even heard billy graham speak that jesus real suffering was the spiritual one, not the physical. I have a great quote from calvin that jesus suffered in hell, also luther said jesus suffered hell. "

enoch son · Mar 4, 2004

Jim B said:
e. This sounds like Seventh Day Adventist's "annihilation of the soul" teaching. Do you believe that?

I was raised SDA and have often thought that they had a point worth thinking about but am firmly a believer in the more orthodox teachings on hell.

This would also make an interesting thread.

\o/

He took are judgement to hell. I don't know what SDA teaches. He went and got the key's back,took our judgement to hell,and free Abram's blossom in the three day's in the grave. And place His blood on the mercy seat. That is what I believe.

Trish1947 · Mar 4, 2004

Gary777 said:
Hi trish,
are you somehow linked to this tom brown? i saw that guy doing delivarance meetings on CNN in a reportage about exorcism, of all places. it was awsome. In my experience, most people who do power ministries like him holds to this view on jesus' death. I think it is because of their faith in the awsome victory the ressurection represents when this view is taught. - kenyon, john g lake, all the wof people, faith-cure peopl of old. Btw, i even heard billy graham speak that jesus real suffering was the spiritual one, not the physical. I have a great quote from calvin that jesus suffered in hell, also luther said jesus suffered hell. "

No I don't know him personally, but his ministry is awsome.
When I started studying the Livitical sacrifices, especially the
sacrifices made on the Day of Atonement, I was convienced that
Jesus went to hell. Since there was 3 sacrifices during the Day of
Atonement, Why would only 2 of them be fulfilled by Jesus, but
the burnt sacrifice (hell) not fulfilled?? It didnt make any since to
me at all. Thats where we we're destined to go for our sin, so why
wouldn't Jesus pay that price also, and fulfill the burnt offering
sacrifice to complete the Atonement. God's word says that "he shall
see the travail of his soul, and be satisified." That definatley is
beyond body offering.

SavedByGrace3 · Mar 4, 2004

Gary777 said:
Ithink its supposed to read:
Luk 23:42 And he said, Jesus, remember me when thou comest in thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today: thou shalt be with me in Paradise.

It is perfectly possible to translate it like this, and it actually gives sence that jesus use the word 'today' when you read it with verse 42. (If the sentence stand alone it seems forced.) "remember me when you come in thy kingdom" and jesus promises him "i say to you today (now) : you will be with me in my kingdom". He will not only remember him when he comes, but he settles the case there and then through a promise that he will be with him when he comes in his kingdom.

I have heard this before also.

joevberry3 · Mar 4, 2004

Gary777 said:
Ithink its supposed to read:
Luk 23:42 And he said, Jesus, remember me when thou comest in thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today: thou shalt be with me in Paradise.

It is perfectly possible to translate it like this, and it actually gives sence that jesus use the word 'today' when you read it with verse 42. (If the sentence stand alone it seems forced.) "remember me when you come in thy kingdom" and jesus promises him "i say to you today (now) : you will be with me in my kingdom". He will not only remember him when he comes, but he settles the case there and then through a promise that he will be with him when he comes in his kingdom.

You are correct Gary. Most bible scholars agree that the comma was placed in the wrong place here which makes it seem that Christ and the thief will be in Paradise that same day.
Also, (responding to other posts) Luther and Calvin did indeed teach that Christ suffered Spiritually in Hell, so did Billy Graham.
God Bless

harmmony · Mar 4, 2004

Thank you Andrew for the link I will gladly have a read .

Gary777 said:
Harmmony,
i think you are beeing to critical. My belifs about this are not buildt upon "pure speculations" at all, but on study of scripture. I wouldn't belive in the descencion of jesus into hell, unless i found it in the bible - not in one place but troughout scriptures.
The reason why psalm 88 and ohtre psalms like this (f.inst psalm 16) is thought to be prephetic about jesus in hell is becuase the word SHEOL is used, and even though this may be translated "grave" in some bibles it really is the hebrew name for where the dead spirits/souls went after their physcial death. ANyways, the psalmist couldn't be talking about themselves because obviosly they wern't dead or in sheol (or in the grave for that matter).
As a matter of fact, NT quotes these psalms and explains them to be prophetic about jesus suffering in hell.

Gary777, thank you for your passionate reply. I guess my thing is that I sometimes see the scriptures being stretched a little too far in order to make them fit an interpretation. I have seen this somewhat with this topic.

I am very interested to read where Psalm 88,16 and 18 are quoted from in New Testament, you gave me chapters, but I would love it if it isn't too much trouble if you could give me the actual scriptures.

hal said:
He told the thief he would be with him in Paradise.
I believe that was abraham's bosom, or the "cool" side of Hell.
I believe that is also where the old testament saints were on "lay away" until the cross. Jesus preached to them and I believe those who accepted the gospel were resurrected with him.
Paradise is not Heaven.

I do tend to believe that Jesus went to hell, but this idea that Paradise was some part of hell where the OT saints were is completely unsupportable in terms of the scripture as far as I can tell. I have heard this before and think it's a wild theory that can't hold up at all.

Anthony · Mar 5, 2004

The Cross is the end of it

When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. - John 19:30

kh77 · Mar 6, 2004

harmmony said:
I do tend to believe that Jesus went to hell, but this idea that Paradise was some part of hell where the OT saints were is completely unsupportable in terms of the scripture as far as I can tell. I have heard this before and think it's a wild theory that can't hold up at all.

(Luke 16:19-31) suggests that Abraham's Bosom (or Paradise) may be the cooler part of Hades where OT saints were kept before Christ's Resurrection. The cooler part is separated from the tormenting part by an impassable gulf.

19There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich mans table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abrahams bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24Then he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25But Abraham said, Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us. 27Then he said, I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my fathers house, 28for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment. 29Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30And he said, No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent. 31But he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.

harmmony · Mar 6, 2004

kh77 said:
(Luke 16:19-31) suggests that Abraham's Bosom (or Paradise) may be the cooler part of Hades where OT saints were kept before Christ's Resurrection. The cooler part is separated from the tormenting part by an impassable gulf.

Thanks for posting the scriptures I have left them out of the quote for brevity.

This section of scripture is in fact a parable (a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle - Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary) - the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus - told by Jesus and therefore cannot be read literally and used as evidence for any point of view.

Soulwinner79 · Mar 6, 2004

I believe he didn't go to Hell I believe he went to Paradise which is not talking about Heaven because when he told the thief Today you will join with me in Paradise Jesus wasn't talking about Heaven because he had not been to Heaven yet to be with his Father God. He was talking about the place that was on the other side of hell where Moses,Abraham,etc were. Then when he got there then he went to Hell to fight Satan for the keys of Heaven and Hell.

harmmony · Mar 6, 2004

Soulwinner79 said:
I believe he didn't go to Hell I believe he went to Paradise which is not talking about Heaven because when he told the thief Today you will join with me in Paradise Jesus wasn't talking about Heaven because he had not been to Heaven yet to be with his Father God. He was talking about the place that was on the other side of hell where Moses,Abraham,etc were. Then when he got there then he went to Hell to fight Satan for the keys of Heaven and Hell.

I still haven't seen one shred of credible evidence to show that this place near hell, where Abraham etc. supposedly was, actually ever existed. The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31 does not count, it is a PARABLE. Does anyone have any other scriptural evidence?

SavedByGrace3 · Mar 6, 2004

I guess someone has already pointed out that Greek has no comma..... so you could read this either way:

Amen, I say unto you, today you will be with me in paradise.
Amen, I say unto you today, you will be with me in paradise.

SavedByGrace3 · Mar 6, 2004

Just a side note...
I happen to believe that Jesus was made sin with our sin (1 Corin 5:21), and was not raised up from that spiritual condition until the third day. Because I was brought up in the Episcopalian Church with the old version of the Aposlte's creed which said "he descended into hell". I assumed for many years that he went to hell because that is where all unbelieving "sinful" people go.

I am now somewhat undecided. If you have been following the discussions here and elsewhere you will know that we also hold that those believers who died before the resurrection went to "Abraham's Bosom"... or the "cool side" of hell ("the park"). Since all the people in "Abrahams Bosom" were believing unregenerate sinners, nothing says that Jesus (who was still sin with our sin but certainly a believer) did not go directly there.

But I am have no particular conviction either way.
Neat discussion...

Dids

TheScottsMen · Mar 6, 2004

Andrew said:
harmony,

If you want more scripture support, and a clearer argument, you can read my notes here:

http://sg.geocities.com/saltandlight5/giants.html

It explains in detail what this verse means:

1 Peter 3:19,20
19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison
20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

Loved your website! Made sure to bookmark it right next to VW's

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