Did Jesus come as God or as a human being?

drmmjr · Mar 8, 2002

You need to read on down a couple of more verses:

John 10:36 - Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Jesus never said he was God.

Wearynot · Mar 8, 2002

No, you need to read on down to where Jesus says: John 10:37
"If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;

John 10:38
but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

You know something? It just occurred to me that we can parry Scripture with one another all day long, but until one of us (read that YOU ) seeks the truth, we will continue to do just that.

drmmjr · Mar 8, 2002

Originally posted by Wearynot
No, you need to read on down to where Jesus says: John 10:37
"If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;

John 10:38
but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

And if you read a couple of chapters further, you will get an understanding of the how Jesus was in God, and God in Jesus.

John 17:21 - That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 - And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 - I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Jesus asks that they might be one just like Jesus is one with God. If the the disciples (or us for that matter) were one with God, were they God?

Originally posted by Wearynot
You know something? It just occurred to me that we can parry Scripture with one another all day long, but until one of us (read that YOU ) seeks the truth, we will continue to do just that.

And I could say the same of you. But isn't that where we are now? You say you have the truth, I say I have the truth. A Jew says he has the truth. None can or will sway the other. All have studied the scriptures. Unfortunately some have studied with a biased opinion that is not clearly shown in scripture, but implied from interpretation of translations.

LouisBooth · Mar 8, 2002

"And if you read a couple of chapters further, you will get an understanding of the how Jesus was in God, and God in Jesus.
"

yeah..because they have the same will.. Jesus is God.

"If the the disciples (or us for that matter) were one with God, were they God? "

This has to do with message and unity, NOT essience. The church is unified with God in action as Jesus was unifed with God the father in action. Look at the context. dr..I went in with an open mind and I was clearly shown Jesus was God. So did the guy that wrote case for christ Good read I might add.

edpobre · Apr 4, 2002

Originally posted by Wearynot
Do not do me the discourtesy of inferring I am a Pharisee. I have never, in my year or so of debating you, resorted to ad hom. Let us not start now.

Isn't it true that, like the Pharisees, you too think that Jesus was claiming to be God? What's wrong about my statement my friend? If you don't like to be countted among the Pharisees, all you have to do is open your eyes and STOP thinking like them.

Now, to answer your question. "Do you really THINK (rudeness edited out) that Jesus was CLAIMING to be God by saying, "I am the SON of God?"

I dunno, lessee..."John 10:33
The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

Open your eyes my friend and SEE that the JEWS were accusing Jesus of making himself out to be God. How did the Jews come into this ERRONEOUS conclusion? Jesus himself answered in John 10:36 - by him saying that he is the son of God. The Jews thought, like most professing Christians think today, that being son of God is EQUAL to being God.

Ed's version: John 10:33
The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be the son ofGod."

Choices, choices...do I believe John, the apostle who was beloved of Jesus, and WAS THERE? Or do I believe ed, who trying to read Scripture with that caul over his eyes?

Whaddya think, ed?

First, you THOUGHT it was John who was accusing Jesus of blasphemy by making himself out to be God. If you remove the scale over your eyes, you would have seen that it was the Jews who were accusing Jesus of blasphemy.

Second, You are falsely misrepresenting me because I do not have my own version of John 10:33. If you relate John 10:33 to John 10:36, you would come to the reasonable conclusion that the Jews THOUGHT Jesus was making hinself out to be God when he said he is the son of God.

I THINK my friend that even highly intelligent people like you can be misled into believing a lie if they fail to use their head.

Ed

edpobre · Apr 4, 2002

Originally posted by jrmorganjr
Ed,

What worldview are you backing into, by stating that Jesus isn't divine? Some offshoot of the gnosticism against which John was making the remarks you quoted?

If he is not divine, how would he have the power to save us from our sins? If we were to concede you your point, where would you go with it?

I just want to see what kind of fruit you're trying to grow, friend.

jrmorganjr,

Is Jesus your Lord and savior? Do you believe Jesus? If you answered yes to both questions, we shouldn't have any disagreement as to his state of being. It was Jesus himself who said that he is a MAN (John 8:40). It was also Jesus who said that the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).

Anyone who believes Jesus shall have everlasting life (John 3:16) but anyone who does NOT believe Jesus is CONDEMNED already (John 3:18).

The choice is yours my friend. What I'm growing is the fruit of life. Believe Jesus and LIVE! Reject what Jesus says and DIE!

Ed

Optimus_P · Apr 4, 2002

Spend no more time here. Ed has been argueing this ONE point for months, and has gotten no where, even after a banning he comes back to the same argument.

Thinker · Apr 4, 2002

A lot of `preaching to the choir' on this thread.

`Son of God' in biblical times was a honorific, not a literal claim - among Jews. As an example, the term `Son of God' was applied to the Jewish magician Honi the Circle Drawer a century prior to the time of Jesus. When a person claimed to be the Son of God, the others around them (if Jews) would automatically interpret that as meaning that here was somebody who considered himself especially favored of God, not his literal son.

The people living around the Jews - the Greeks, the Romans, ect - worshipped a vast pantheon of Gods. In their belief system, these Gods frequently did assume mortal form and beget offspring. The most famous example would be Hercules.

It seems as though an honorific in one culture (Jewish) became a literal claim in another (Pagan). And the Gospels, along with most of the rest of the NT, were aimed at a (once) Pagan audience.

LouisBooth · Apr 4, 2002

"When a person claimed to be the Son of God, the others around them (if Jews) would automatically interpret that as meaning that here was somebody who considered himself especially favored of God, not his literal son"

Wow, one of the first people to get it I've seen that's not a christian. Its not especially favored, but equal to God in authority. See pslams 2. Congrats

Nick_Loves_Abba · Apr 4, 2002

Ok my turn.

Let us look back into both the OT, and the NT. First, the OT.

Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Not the NT.

Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Hmm, Ed. What do you got to say to THAT!

Thinker · Apr 5, 2002

About the Jews regarding the term `Son of God' as a honorific and not a literal claim - in my experience, the vast bulk of christians fail to grasp that point either.

Point is, by Jewish standards, Jesus was not guilty of blasphemy by stating such. Which calls to doubt a whole slew of passages in the gospels, and the conclusions christians draw from them. Especially if the Jews belief really is the literal truth - Jesus being somebody who saw himself as being close to God without being divine in his own right.

LouisBooth · Apr 5, 2002

"Point is, by Jewish standards, Jesus was not guilty of blasphemy by stating such. "

yes he was, they said it of him when he stated I am the Son of God. Read your NT By Jewish standards anyone claiming that he is equal to God is commiting blasphamy accoring to commandment number 1. If you look at that hebrew word there is means beside me, below me, around me. Basically it states you should have NO other gods at all. Thus none equal to God. This is what the title Son of God claims. Thus the title is a claim of Christ saying he was divine.

Thinker · Apr 6, 2002

No, he was not claiming to be the literal `Son of God', and his (Jewish) audience knew it. From their perspective, he was merely saying he was greatly favored of God. Claiming to be God would, in their eyes, have been an act of insanity.

Now in the surrounding (Non-Jewish) cultures, a literal claim to be a `Son of God', would have been acceptable, if outlandish - such was a technique employed by the followers of the more powerfull wizards, such as Apollonius of Tyana.

The Gospels were written, or rewritten by people who had a Non-Jewish perspective on the matter, and little real understanding of the Jewish faith. Mark (often thought to be a pagan convert to christianity) in particular is notorious for his screwups, and both Luke and Matthew are essentially expanded and rewritten versions of his work. John probably underwent at least two rewrites to reflect the theological changes made by that particular group.

I said it before - a Jewish honorific was transmuted to a literal claim by early christians.

edpobre · Apr 7, 2002

Originally posted by Nick_Loves_Abba
Ok my turn.

Let us look back into both the OT, and the NT. First, the OT.

Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Not the NT.

Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Hmm, Ed. What do you got to say to THAT!

Nick,

Isaiah 40:3 is a prophecy concerning the mission of John the Baptist. He was to prepare the groundwok for the ministry of Jesus who is our "highway" to God. Jesus is the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE. No one goes to the FATHER (God) except THROUGH him (John 14:6).

Ed

Lizzi4Christ · Apr 7, 2002

We just went over this in Sunday school this morning. My youth pastor told us this. Jesus is both man and both God. He has 2 natures: human nature and divine nature. Colassians 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (KJV). Jesus was God. But he was also human. He was born of a woman. He didn't just appear. He grew in wisdom. Luke 2:40 "And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom" (NIV) Wisdom is being able to apply the knowledge one has. God knows everything, but Jesus had to learn how to apply what He knew. He also grew physically. He had all the basic human needs. He had hunger, thirst, He was tempted, He faced sorrow, He felt fatigue and He was going to die. He was both God and human.

Debbie · Apr 7, 2002

1 Timothy 3: 16" And without controversy great is the mystery of Godliness: GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH, justified in the spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, recieved up into Glory."

edpobre · Apr 7, 2002

Originally posted by Debbie
1 Timothy 3: 16" And without controversy great is the mystery of Godliness: GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH, justified in the spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, recieved up into Glory."

Here's the Today's English Version of 1 Tim. 3:16: "No one can deny how great is the secret of our religion: He appeared in human form, was shown to be right by the spirit, and was seen by angels. He was preached among the nations, was believed in throughout the world, and was taken up in heaven."

Which of these versions DOES NOT contradict 1 Cor. 8:6 whose author is also apostle Paul. Moreover, which version upholds the TRUTH that Jesus is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3)?

Ed

TheUnknown · Apr 7, 2002

So how many ppl believe that Jesus is God in the flesh?

edpobre · Apr 9, 2002

Originally posted by TheUnknown
So how many ppl believe that Jesus is God in the flesh?

Dear Confused,

Jesus can NEVER be "God in the flesh." God says "MAN is flesh" (Gen. 6:3). Jesus says "GOD is SPIRIT" (John 4:24). Jesus says a SPIRIT does NOT have flesh and bones like he has (Luke 24:39). Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).

Therefore, GOD will NEVER be in the FLESH.

Unfortunately, a lot of people believe that Jesus is "God in the flesh," a belief which goes AGAINST what the Bible teaches and more specifically, AGAINST what Jesus teaches. Anyone who does NOT stay in the teaching of Christ does NOT have God (2 John 9 TEV). And anyone who does NOT believe Jesus is CONDEMNED already (John 3:18).

I hope this helps clear up your confusion.

Ed

PrinceJeff · Apr 9, 2002

Ed your posts have just proved how much Satan has a hold on your soul. Keep reading your corrupt TEV and we will see if you get to heaven some day.

Did Jesus come as God or as a human being?

Did Jesus come as God or as a human being?

1 - Jesus came as God

2 - Jesus came as a human being

Jesus was 100% man 100% God

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