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Lifelong_sinner

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hello all. so first off, im not a preacher, just someone who loves to talk about God. so i have recently been trying to find salvation, and i have been telling my family of this. now my mother, father, and sister all thought they were saved. im definitely the black sheep of the family, and have always doubted my salvation. so a couplke of weekends back, we all went to my sisters house for fathers day. and we got to talking about church and religion. ever ready to talk about God, i chimed in about calvinism. my family now doubts they are saved after this talk and im wondering if i did more harm than good to tell them about this.

i still believe calvinism is the better doctrine to study, but my sister told my mother today that she didnt think any of us are saved. did i mess up?? im really worried that i may have taken their assurance away. what do i do???
 

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Sometimes it good to have your faith shaken and to question your salvation, especially if assurance is frustrated so easily as simply discussing Calvinism.

I can't say whether or not what you did was wrong or not, or whether you or they are truly saved or not, etc. But I can say that the only reason we are saved is because Jesus drank our Hell, and clothes us with His own righteousness. A divine transaction occurred at the cross: Jesus who never sinned became sin and took our punishment, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God. I don't believe it's important to focus on if you did anything wrong, but rather to use this as an opportunity for everyone to get rooted deeper into the Word and strengthen your assurance in that Truth. God may have allowed this for a reason.
 
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sandman

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I am not into religion at all …just the Bible, so I don’t know what Calvinism all is about. To me religion divides …..it’s what man thinks of God … Christianity is a way of a Father with his family. The reason we have so many religions is because of private interpretation. 2Pe 1:20

Regardless I am still thankful for the different institutions that teach Gods Word.

The Bible declares that anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as their lord and savior is born again and has incorruptible seed…………. What in essence is declared in Acts 2:38

38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


If what you shared with your family is different than that, then in my opinion and the written word….. yes, you did mess up. But that can easily be rectified and that should be done asap…

Also You may not consider yourself a preacher, but it sounds like you are good at it ….you should pursue that.
 
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Sketcher

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You said you're trying to find salvation. Are you saved, or are you not? If so, why? If not, why not?
 
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Lifelong_sinner

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You said you're trying to find salvation. Are you saved, or are you not? If so, why? If not, why not?

i dont believe i am due to the fact that i have been practicing a particular sin for about 30 yrs now. 1st john says if we practice sin, we are of the devil.
I believe the Bible, but my actions say otherwise.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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I don't know what you said, so it is hard to tell. But I would get you to consider that Calvinism may be an incorrect doctrine, I discuss one of its main tenants here Is Predestination real? | Everybody Matters Ministry
 
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Lifelong_sinner

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I don't know what you said, so it is hard to tell. But I would get you to consider that Calvinism may be an incorrect doctrine, I discuss one of its main tenants here Is Predestination real? | Everybody Matters Ministry

hello friend. Calvinism is not an incorrect doctrine and i read what you wrote in the link and find it beyond incorrect. Your main problem is that you free will types believe our free will is stronger than Gods sovereignty. There is no free will concerning our salvation, if God selected us, it was for His glory, and we are incapable of resisting His grace. His will be done, not ours. To assume we can resist Gods calling is nothing but prideful.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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No not at all we are responsible for our actions, not God. It is how we respond to God that determines our destiny. God fixes no one's destiny.
 
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Cormack

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How exactly did you injure your family’s shared sense of assurance, @Lifelong_sinner? Calvinism comprises a very broad set of ideas, so it’s hard to get a handle on where the conversation went bad without knowing more.

You could have undermined their sense of being saved by exploring Calvinism’s limited atonement, its “dreaded false hope” or the idea of double predestination.

It’s hard to see how the conversation soured without knowing exactly what hurt their sense of solidarity in faith so badly. Could you share more?

im really worried that i may have taken their assurance away. what do i do???

Of course if you wanted to be a strict Calvinist, you’d have to believe that it wasn’t really you who shipwrecked their sense of assurance, rather it was the sovereign will of God and you were simply the means by which God undid your family.
 
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EmethAlethia

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There are about 900 passages of scripture in the N.T. on the characteristics of the and of the lost and the difference between them. The key being that the different passages picked and interpreted in the light of the beliefs each group knows are fact are the same where the beliefs align and different when each groups beliefs differ from the others. Mormons, Roman Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, Calvinists, Armenians ... pick the different beliefs on the topic of anything and you will fiond that every group does the following: They all:

1.) Share the proof that verifies their views are the correct ones. What else do they share?

2.) They share the evidence that proves all opposing views are off. How do they interpret everything?

3.) They Interpret everything in the light of what they “know” is truth. What is truth? For each of them, the truth is their beliefs. Ergo, all correct interpretations … of all “valid” data, must support … or at least not negate, their infallible beliefs.

4.) Anything that doesn’t seem to fit with our views, they reinterpret, ignore, discredit, invalidate …

5.) They may share experiences, signs, or other "facts" about their belief group that are foundational to believing as they do. Things like: We have a burning in the bosom, we speak in tongues, we perform signs or wonders, a statue of Mary came to life and told us our belief groups views are correct, we have prayed to God for the truth and received “feelings” or even signs from heaven. Or, on a more concrete level we have facts about our belief group. Things like: Our belief group is the oldest, largest, fastest growing, wealthiest, has the most experts with doctorates… We include anything that adds assurance that our way is the best way.”

But these are the things we do "if" we just want to believe what we want to believe, and have reasons for discarding the rest, closing our eyes, ears and hearts to even considering anything else. There may be 500 "Brands" of Baptists in the North American continent, but they all do the exact same things to hold fast to what they "want to believe" "as" truth.

Everyone doing the above process has unquestionably true, infallible beliefs. Why? Look at 1-5 above. I call these 5 "Methodology One": The Methodology of belief groups.

Think about it. If you do more of any of them, how long before you discover your beliefs are false? How long before you realize something else is true? Answer to both is you can never get to anything but complete assurance of your beliefs, whether you are an Atheist, Moslem, Jew, Roman Catholic, Baptist, Mormon ... everyone does the methodology above to hold fast to their beliefs "as" truth.

Now look at this Method:

1.) Rule #1: Avoid “Methodology One”: Proving your beliefs true and holding fast to them, is not the same as, “Proving all things over and over again as a habit and way of life, and holding fast to what is good/true.”

2.) Open-mindedness: All belief groups believe in being open minded … “until” you accept their beliefs. Then they believe in being as closed as possible. If you love truth, you will continually remain open-minded to altering any or all of your beliefs in the light of the fullness of the truth, when everything that “might” pertain to the topic at hand is rightly divided.

3.) Habitual ongoing Labor/ Getting Every Piece of Data that Might Pertain: If you Love Truth, you, personally, must become a manual laborer and keep on gathering every fact anyone thinks might pertain to every topic at hand. Then gather all the data that “might pertain” no belief group gathers because they can’t use that information to prove their beliefs true or opposing beliefs false.

4.) Consistency with Background Context: Pick a meaning that fully aligns with the historical, legal, architectural, agricultural … context.

5.) Consistency of Meaning of words/root words/figures of speech: Hold to a meaning for all words, root words, and figures of speech consistent with their usage throughout the Old and New Testament. We have a Greek Old and New Testament and a Hebrew Old Testament, pick a meaning fully fitting everywhere the same word, root word, and figure of speech is used.

6.) Consistency with the Surrounding Discussion: Hold to a meaning consistent with the entire discussion surrounding the verse or passage being considered, hold to the flow of thought, flow of arguments, meaning of points made …

7.) Consistency with conscience: Example: If your interpretation would be a sin if a man did likewise and your interpretation results in believing God does what would be sin for us, your interpretation is wrong. i.e., there are no illustrations in the Bible where God says He commits adultery. If your chosen meaning for the word adultery would make God an adulterer, and by His own admission, you picked the wrong meaning for the word.

8.) God, God’s People and God’s Word are 100% consistent: Pick an interpretation for all the data that makes God, God’s people and God’s word 100% consistent in “all” they say and do and “all” they don’t say and don’t do. Any inconsistencies, are proof of incorrect beliefs/definitions.

9.) Always apply logic, reason, and rational thinking: Pick an interpretation fully fitting with all logic, reason, and rational thinking. (i.e., if the writer spent a whole chapter saying all gifts are equal and necessary, that none are greater than any others, … do not choose an interpretation for the very next verse that would command us to desire what God spent the previous 30 verses saying doesn’t exist, and that you can’t get, period, regardless of your desire. “Earnestly desire the greater gifts”, contradicts everything prior. Look for the “other” possible meaning. Note: There is one.

10.) Start with the Easiest/Clearest … data on the topic: Interpret the clearest, easiest understood, most straightforward data/passages first—then the more complex or difficult passages. The complex, convoluted, and difficult passages are easy to distort to fit beliefs.

11.) It ALL fits together: Pick a meaning for the parts that fully fit with the whole of the data that might pertain without adding meaning, subtracting meaning, or distorting anything to force it to comply with your beliefs. If everything gathered (#3 above) does not fully fit with everything in #4-10 above, you have the wrong meaning, and you are forcing the scriptures to fit what you want to believe “as” truth.

12.) Keep on continuously proving all things over and over again as a habit and way of life and never stop … and hold fast to what is good/true. Getting to truth is an ongoing process that never ends. One single verse, one fact you missed, one slight change in interpretation … can force a complete reevaluation and even a complete a change of beliefs. That is, if you love truth, and obey what God commands all His people to be continuously doing for and by themselves. If not …

13.) It’s all on You! Trusting others to get to truth “for” you, is like trusting others to have a relationship with your wife / husband / kids “for” you. It cannot be done. Your failure to keep on habitually doing as God commands all His people to keep on habitually doing, proves you have gathered enough using Methodology One to hold fast to what you want to believe and fall short of 2Th. 2:10-12

I always tell everyone: Understand, “Agreement with me might only make us both wrong.” Why? Because it's true. It only takes one verse I missed, in context, cut straight, to change my beliefs.

Starting from beliefs, and then going to those who have the same ones to get all the passages they use to prove their beliefs to be fact, opposing beliefs false, and to understand how they interpret everything to hold fast to those beliefs always results in the affirmation of those beliefs. If your goal is to do something like that, pick the beliefs you want to have first. If you want to be Mormon gather their data and use their interpretations. If you want to be a Calvinist use theirs, Roman Catholic ... you get the idea.

Understand, everyone in every belief group knows they love truth and have the truth. Here's why:

2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. 13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Everyone gets what they really want. That which we love least is always forced to conform to that which we love most. Everyone either loves the truth or their beliefs. But the "Many on the Broad path of destruction in Mat. 7 is the same many that believe Jesus is their Lord God and Savior at the end of the chapter to whom Jesus said, "Depart from Me ye who work iniquity for I never knew you."

Everyone using Methodology One, while they will get an unshakeable, unquestionable belief that theyu have the truth, but it is really God hardening them into what they want to believe because they just love what they want to believe. Everyone picks one, and the Methodology you use proves what camp you are in.
 
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Sketcher

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i dont believe i am due to the fact that i have been practicing a particular sin for about 30 yrs now. 1st john says if we practice sin, we are of the devil.
I believe the Bible, but my actions say otherwise.
If that's where your faith is at, and if that's what you shared with your sister, then if she believed you it makes perfect sense why she would doubt her own salvation too. You spread your faith all right, but that's negative faith rather than powerful, positive faith that Christianity, including it's Calvinist strains, has to offer. Calvinist offers surety of salvation, and confidence that you can't mess it up. You somehow have the opposite, and are witnessing that opposite faith.

You need to get your own faith in order. Apologize to your sister and confess to her that you do not have a complete understanding of salvation, so she should take everything you said with a grain of salt.
 
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aiki

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www.soteriology101.com

Better to doubt one's salvation and take pains to become certain of it than to go blissfully along confident of a salvation one does not actually possess.
 
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com7fy8

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we got to talking about church and religion. ever ready to talk about God, i chimed in about calvinism. my family now doubts they are saved after this talk and im wondering if i did more harm than good to tell them about this.
Do you know why they changed to doubting?
 
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com7fy8

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If they really were evaluating if they are saved, but then found they were in doubt . . . I think it would be wise, then, to do what they need to do to be saved . . . not to just sit around in doubt.

And our Apostle Paul says >

"we who first trusted in Christ", in Ephesians 1:12.

So, I would say this means that getting saved includes "first" trusting in Jesus. A person comes to trust Jesus, and this gets a person started.
 
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com7fy8

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i still believe calvinism is the better doctrine to study, but my sister told my mother today that she didnt think any of us are saved. did i mess up??
I have been told things about Calvinism, and possibly I have been told correct things and things which misrepresent Calvinism. But I find that the Bible gives us more and better than either the correct or the incorrect ideas about Calvinism. So, I recommend you get to know God's word which in my opinion brings attention to much more and better than I have gotten by sharing with Calvinists or with people who make a project of denying Calvinism.

I personally find there can be things which are Biblical in Calvinist thought and in non-Calvinist ideas. But there also can be things not correct, in both groups. Plus, where is the focus?

Our Apostle Paul says things which to me support predestination in God's full management. But I find he goes beyond what I am familiar with, of Calvinist things. And the main attention of Paul is not only to who controls who gets saved, but our Apostle Paul's main attention, in my opinion is >

"Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily." (Colossians 1:28-29)

So, my opinion is that Paul's attention stayed mainly with how to minister for us to become perfect in Jesus . . . to be conformed to His image . . . so we are like Him, therefore pleasing to our Father like Jesus is, plus loving the way Jesus loves because of our being like Him. And in order to minister this to us, Paul submitted to how our Father in Him worked Paul to do this. So, Paul stayed attentive to our Father in him; Paul was always discovering how our Father had him ministering for people to become and to love like Jesus. And I think it is wise to constantly, then, be attentive and submissive to how our Father works in us to have us ministering.

And I would say God is able to use any scripture to help us somehow with this > how to become like Christ, how to love, and how to help others with this.

So, if this did not have your attention, this could be at least part of the problem. Notice, by the way, what God's word says is predestined >


"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

So . . . my opinion for you to consider > Biblical predestination is not primarily about who controls. Control is merely an idol of the ego; so it indeed can be a very hot issue which decoys attention away from what predestination is really about.

Biblical predestination primarily is that God will conform us to the image of His own Son who is so well-pleasing to Him. Our Father so loves Jesus, that He desires to have many children who are delighting to Him, by our being and loving like Jesus. Jesus, Himself, then, and how He is, is the center of our Father's attention of predestination - - and of preaching His word >

You might note how Jesus in His Sermon on the Mount starts right off with . . . how to be >

poor in spirit

meek

merciful

pure in heart

Jesus God's own Son could have started with anything, at all. But He started with how to be
"Blessed" . . . and I think we can agree that the way to be blessed is to be like Jesus . . . right?

So, of course you can see why people will call attention to other things.
 
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com7fy8

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my sister told my mother today that she didnt think any of us are saved.
Why doesn't she think this?

I can not say about you and your family, but I find that there are people who are very self-centered, by mainly being concerned about their own selves being saved. They are mainly or only interested in getting their own blessings in Heaven.

Plus, by the way, ones can be very concerned only or mainly about getting their own selves blessed by God. They are trying to learn, even, how to use God like a jukebox or a genie to control Him to give them what they want. And you can see how ones sing songs which say "I" am this, and You love "me", and "I" do this and that. But in the Our Father prayer, Jesus starts with "Our" - - not "My". And His prayer is about "we" and "us" . . . being family with all our brothers and sisters in Jesus.

And there is the Lord's prayer in John chapter seventeen, claiming all which Jesus seeks for us who are His family > things you might never hear people praying for.

So, in case someone's attention is mainly to one's own self, this can lead to problems.

"If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me." (in Luke 9:23)

"'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

If we are with Jesus, He proves Himself with us . . . in us, including by sharing His rest of His peace with us. And we discover how He our Creator has us loving very creatively . . . loving any and all people >

"For if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (in Matthew 5:46)

So, in case someone is selfishly loving, he or she can get into problems and not have assurance which comes from God. And ones might decoy their attention to doctrines and if some group says they are saved or not . . . instead of evaluating if they are all-loving the way Jesus desires.
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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Might I suggest a book for your family to consider that is biblically based? I found this book in our church library about 10 years ago, checked it out for 2 weeks, and read the entire book on vacation at the beach, and became so attached to it I bought my own copy even after finishing it.

https://www.amazon.com/Absolutely-S...absolutely+sure&qid=1625032662&s=books&sr=1-1

I agree it is much, much better to examine your faith than to not be sure and wind up in hell. Jesus tells us that many will claim to be Christians, but He will say "I never knew you". The most bone chilling words in the entire Scripture if you ask me, but it the Lord wrote it for a reason.

Calvinism is a system of theology and is based on the TULIP. Google it to find out more, as it would take a long explanation. I'm a Calvinist but I do not subscribe to every element of the TULIP, so there are people like me called 4 point Calvinists and then there are 5 point Calvinists. I've even heard the term hyper-Calvinism, but I don't really know what it means.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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You mention, that you fear the verses in 1 John as stated below.

1Jn 3:8-9 Anyone who keeps on sinning belongs to the devil. He has sinned from the beginning, but the Son of God came to destroy all that he has done. God's children cannot keep on being sinful. His life-giving power lives in them and makes them his children, so that they cannot keep on sinning.

You may be caught in a sin but that does not mean that you can not forsake it. The bible instructs those who are walking rightly to:

Gal 6:1 My friends, you are spiritual. So if someone is trapped in sin, you should gently lead that person back to the right path. But watch out, and don't be tempted yourself.

This shows that people, even Christians, can fall into a persistent sin. Even if you walked away from the LORD for a time, He commands:

Jas 5:19-20 My friends, if any followers have wandered away from the truth, you should try to lead them back. If you turn sinners from the wrong way, you will save them from death, and many of their sins will be forgiven.

So God would be drawing you back to Him. That is what the Word commands if a person wanders into sin they are to be pulled from it.

So you now need to focus your attention on the Word, GOd can and will help you to escape your sin:

1Co 10:13 You are tempted in the same way that everyone else is tempted. But God can be trusted not to let you be tempted too much, and he will show you how to escape from your temptations.

SO how do we aid in this process? The bible tells us:

Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Luk 22:40 And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation.

Prayer is a wall against temptation. As we pray the Holy Spirit empowers us, fills us with the strength to overcome our weakness.

Rom 8:12-13 My dear friends, we must not live to satisfy our desires. If you do, you will die. But you will live, if by the help of God's Spirit you say "No" to your desires.

Seek to pray more, pray for the strength of the Holy Spirit.
 
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SANTOSO

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Dear one, if you messed up, just REPENT.

Dear one, if you are worried, then you concerned yourself why you are worried; then seek wisdom and understanding from the Lord on what is written in the Holy Scripture.

Dear one, if you want to assure them, you need first of all assured before you can assure others. If you want to be assured, then seek the Lord’s righteousness, that is in the gospel of Christ.

Dear one, don’t concern yourself with Calvinism ; Calvinism would not get you saved; only Jesus Christ can get you saved.
Dear one, discussing Calvinism will get you nowhere but more confused or unassured.

Dear one, seek the truth that is found in the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Dear one, if you seek what is right about assurance of salvation but you do not seek by faith, you will not find.

For this is what we have heard:
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith." -Romans 1:17

For the righteousness of God, that is found in the gospel of Jesus Christ, is revealed from faith to faith.
 
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