Did God resurrect Moses and Elijah already?

[tonychanyt]

Matthew 17:

1 And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light. 3And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.

Did they see the physical Moses and Elijah?

4 And Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.” 5 He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son,a with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.” 6 When the disciples heard this, they fell on their faces and were terrified. 7 But Jesus came and touched them, saying, “Rise, and have no fear.” 8 And when they lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only.

The whole experience seems to be out of this world.

9 And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, “Tell no one the vision, until the Son of Man is raised from the dead.”

Strong's Greek: 3705. ὅραμα (horama) — 12 Occurrences
BDAG:
① someth. that is viewed with one’s eye, someth. seen, sight, vision
② the act by which the recipient of a vision is granted a vision, or the state of being in which the pers. receives a vision
They saw the vision with their physical eyes. They saw physical images of Moses and Elijah and heard physical sound waves from them. They were not just a figment of their collective imagination.
The same word was in Acts 11:

5 I was in the city of Joppa praying, and in a trance I saw a vision, something like a great sheet descending, being let down from heaven by its four corners, and it came down to me.

Did God resurrect Moses and Elijah?
I don't think so. They saw a vision of them.
Were Moses and Elijah real?
They were real in that they were real representations (vision) of them; i.e., had God resurrected them, that would have been their real behaviors. The vision was true.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Matthew 17:


Did they see the physical Moses and Elijah?

I think so, yes.

The whole experience seems to be out of this world.

For sure!

They saw the vision with their physical eyes. Physical photons were projected like in a movie or a hologram. They saw physical images of Moses and Elijah and heard physical sound waves from them.

Did God resurrect Moses and Elijah?

Yes, I think he did. "Already, but not yet."

I don't think so.

Were Moses and Elijah real?

They were real in the sense that they were real representations of them; i.e., had God actually resurrected them, that would be their real behaviors.

I think it was really them, but, that does not mean they are "already resurrected" in the sense that we are not. The temporal reference term, "simultaneous", may not be applicable in a non-temporal Heaven, but it may be that the resurrection is not even temporal, except from THIS point-of-view. We may all have a simultaneous resurrection. We may see ourselves arriving simultaneously with Adam and David and Peter and Grandma. God's ways are not our ways.

Consider when we will give account for every idle word we speak. There is reason to say, (though the statement falls short, no doubt), that all of time will be 'played back' in front of everyone. It may well be that in Heaven, that we will see this temporal passage, not as "past", but "accomplished".

We don't know much, but we presume a lot.

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

Elijah wouldn't need resurrected as he was taken up into heaven in a whirlwind.
Moses we do know died, and was buried by God Himself (Jesus). However we have the interesting little verse in Jude 9:
"Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."

Why was he contending with the devil over the body? Was it because God was resurrecting Moses and Satan wanted him to remain dead and therefore was trying to lay claim to the body?

When Jesus is transfigured there appear 2 men speaking with him in glory, they being Moses and Elijah. This was not a vision: Jesus was transfigured and a portion of Gods glory became accessible to this world.

 

[tonychanyt]

This was not a vision

Did you read the OP? Jesus said it was.

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

Did you read the OP? Jesus said it was.

What I meant was a spiritual vision, such as a phantasmic non physical thing.
"Orama" in Greek simply means "that which is seen" - sight, or view. Same word used in Panorama = a wide view.
can mean a spiritual vision, or not.
I did read OP. I think Moses & Elijah were the real deal.
But this is not something that salvation is based on, so it's ok to disagree.

 

[Water and Fire]

It was clearly a vision.

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

Vision as in spirit, or a vision of what was actually there in glory, matters not. Jesus we know was real. He took the disciples up and then came back down the mountain with them.
Why is it so difficult to believe Moses & Elijah were also real, and that they were seen in glory in their glorified bodies? We know Enoch did not die, yet some people I've seen say "Both Moses and Elijah died and were dead." Enoch was taken up to heaven in a whirlwind: Moses body was contended over between Michael the Archangel and the Devil.

 

[tonychanyt]

Vision as in spirit, or a vision of what was actually there in glory, matters not. Jesus we know was real. He took the disciples up and then came back down the mountain with them.
Why is it so difficult to believe Moses & Elijah were also real, and that they were seen in glory in their glorified bodies? We know Enoch did not die, yet some people I've seen say "Both Moses and Elijah died and were dead." Enoch was taken up to heaven in a whirlwind: Moses body was contended over between Michael the Archangel and the Devil.

Thanks for sharing.

Where is Enoch now?

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

Thanks for sharing.

Where is Enoch now?

According to Scripture Enoch was translated, which we can deduce from Genesis 5 & Hebrews 11, which the latter says he was translated that he should not see death:

vs 5 "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."

So, Enoch would be in the heavenly kingdom, and will most likely be part of the armies of heaven that come with Jesus (Rev. 19)

 

[tonychanyt]

According to Scripture Enoch was translated

to where?

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

to where?

Well, allegedly to heaven - but I've read some other accounts, some of which even say he was the "young man" who died at the hands of Lamech in Geneis 4:23
"And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt."

But the Book of Jasher says this:
"And Lamech was old and advanced in years, and his eyes were dim that he could not see, and Tubal Cain, his son, was leading him and it was one day that Lamech went into the field and Tubal Cain his son was with him, and whilst they were walking in the field, Cain the son of Adam advanced towards them; for Lamech was very old and could not see much, and Tubal Cain his son was very young.

And Tubal Cain told his father to draw his bow, and with the arrows he smote Cain, who was yet far off, and he slew him, for he appeared to them to be an animal.

And the arrows entered Cain's body although he was distant from them, and he fell to the ground and died.

And the Lord requited Cain's evil according to his wickedness, which he had done to his brother Abel, according to the word of the Lord which he had spoken.
And it came to pass when Cain had died, that Lamech and Tubal went to see the animal which they had slain, and they saw, and behold Cain their grandfather was fallen dead upon the earth.

And Lamech was very much grieved at having done this, and in clapping his hands together he struck his son and caused his death.

And the wives of Lamech heard what Lamech had done, and they sought to kill him.
And the wives of Lamech hated him from that day, because he slew Cain and Tubal Cain, and the wives of Lamech separated from him, and would not hearken to him in those days.
And Lamech came to his wives, and he pressed them to listen to him about this matter.

And he said to his wives Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice O wives of Lamech, attend to my words, for now you have imagined and said that I slew a man with my wounds, and a child with my stripes for their having done no violence, but surely know that I am old and grey-headed, and that my eyes are heavy through age, and I did this thing unknowingly.
(Jasher 2:26-35)

The Book of Jasher is mentioned in the Scriptures in Joshua 10:13 & in 2 Samuel 1:18.

Others say Enoch was just moved to a safe place because people would have sought to persecute and kill him for preaching what Jude records in 14-15 of Jude, which quotes Enoch 1:9

So, realistically, 'tis a mystery. It's an interesting topic, but salvation does not hinge on it: we must always put the method of salvation first and foremost. The cross of Christ is central, and His work thereupon, and His resurrection: that through Him we can be born again, and become new creatures in Him.

 

[tonychanyt]

Well, allegedly to heaven

What is he doing there now?

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

What is he doing there now?

That is an odd question. I have absolutely no clue whatsoever. If he is there I'd imagine he'd be worshipping, rejoicing, praising Yahweh in glory. But that's only speculation.

 

[tonychanyt]

That is an odd question. I have absolutely no clue whatsoever. If he is there I'd imagine he'd be worshipping, rejoicing, praising Yahweh in glory. But that's only speculation.

Does Enoch have the resurrected body now?

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

Does Enoch have the resurrected body now?

Again, can only speculate. If he was translated into Gods presence, then I'd say yes. But there are scriptures that might refute that. Meaning that it's appointed unto men once to die, death passed to all men, etc - unless when you're translated that equates to death.
Some mysteries will not be known till we get there.

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

I found some interesting information researching the ancient writers on a totally different topic: The rapture.
This certainly refutes those who say Enoch and Elijah died, and their translation meant just taken elsewhere.

"But it appears that Irenaeus of Lyon (120-202) was a pre-tribulationist. Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John) and articulated his eschatological views in Against Heresies, Book 5. First, he referred to Enoch’s translation and Elijah’s being “caught up” as previews of the Rapture. “For Enoch, when he pleased God, was translated in the same body in which he did please Him, thus pointing out by anticipation the translation of the just. Elijah, too, was caught up [when he was yet] in the substance of the [natural] form; thus exhibiting in prophecy the assumption of those who are spiritual, and that nothing stood in the way of their body being translated and caught up.”

https://truthandtidings.com/2020/07/the-rapture-a-pre-darby-rapture/

That's only one person between him and a Disciple that walked with Jesus in the flesh.

 

[tonychanyt]

First, he referred to Enoch’s translation and Elijah’s being “caught up” as previews of the Rapture.

Thanks for sharing. See The word "rapture" and follow up there.

 

[Apple Sky]

Others say Enoch was just moved to a safe place because people would have sought to persecute and kill him for preaching what Jude records in 14-15 of Jude, which quotes Enoch 1:9

So, realistically, 'tis a mystery. It's an interesting topic, but salvation does not hinge on it: we must always put the method of salvation first and foremost. The cross of Christ is central, and His work thereupon, and His resurrection: that through Him we can be born again, and become new creatures in Him.

There were two Enoch's, one was the son of Cain & the other was the son of Jared. This leaves us with two bloodlines.

 

[Ted-01]

Did you read the OP? Jesus said it was.

Tony, did you cross reference with the other Gospel accounts?

Mark 9:9 ESV 9 And as they were coming down the mountain, he charged them to tell no one what they had seen, until the Son of Man had risen from the dead.
The word "vision" isn't used... "saw" is.

Luke doesn't really say either way...
Luke 9:36 ESV 36 And when the voice had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent and told no one in those days anything of what they had seen.

Personally, I believe that it was actually the men that were there, not "just" a vision. I don't think that Jesus would speak to a vision/holographic image.
But I've gone rounds about this on other sites... it's not a Salvation issue and I prefer to keep it at a "pondering" level of discussion.

 

[Ted-01]

What is he doing there now?

Fishing, definitely fishing.
In Heaven, the big ones never get away.