Did God predestine the Fall?

Hieronymus · Dec 21, 2018

All these speculations regarding predestination...
I don't think it's necessary when you think of God's Plan as a game of chess.
It's a game between good and evil.
But no matter how the game develops, God will win and He knows it.
So He knows the goal, the outcome.

just my 2 cents

liberty of conscience · Dec 21, 2018

bbbbbbb said:
What do you make of Psalms 14 and 53, especially the phrase, "There is none who seeks for God, not even one."?

God sought after man (Genesis 3:8). Jesus came to seek and save that which was the one lost sheep (this lost world).

to "seek" is to actively make decision. Men had the choice, even all the way back from Genesis 3:15.

In the beginning God ... (there's a sermon right there for you)

Yet, sin did not originate with God.

bbbbbbb · Dec 21, 2018

liberty of conscience said:
God sought after man (Genesis 3:8). Jesus came to seek and save that which was the one lost sheep (this lost world).

to "seek" is to actively make decision. Men had the choice, even all the way back from Genesis 3:15.

In the beginning God ... (there's a sermon right there for you)

Yet, sin did not originate with God.

So, I take it that you agree with the psalmist that nobody seeks for God.

RDKirk · Dec 21, 2018

Didaskalos said:
We can understand everything He does and why He does it- given we have all the facts. There is no truth or concept in the mind of God that we cannot perceive and fully understand. There is nothing illogical about God or His ways. We only lack the information to see the process from end to end.
God makes sense.

If we don't have the information to see the process from end to end, then we can't perceive the concept. Nor can we assert positively that His process would make sense to us even if we had all the facts...because we don't.

And scripture indicates having all the facts wouldn't work according to the logical rules we know. Speaking in terms of Western culture, our rules of logic are exactly the same as those of the ancient Greeks. Of that, scripture says:

For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age?

Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

liberty of conscience · Dec 21, 2018

bbbbbbb said:
So, I take it that you agree with the psalmist that nobody seeks for God.

I "Amen" the whole of scripture (KJB). The question is basically redundant, in the light of my previous response.

Sinners (unholy, darkness, unrighteousness, selfishness) flee from God (Holy, Light, Righteousness, Love), as Adam.

Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
Gen 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
Gen 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

God's grace then becomes involved. If God did not give to men the choice, they would then have no choice.

Jas_1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

SavedByGrace3 · Dec 21, 2018

Yup... kind of what I said.
Except that if we did have all the facts... we could count on being able to make the correct decisions based on those facts.

RDKirk said:
If we don't have the information to see the process from end to end, then we can't perceive the concept. Nor can we assert positively that His process would make sense to us even if we had all the facts...because we don't.

And scripture indicates having all the facts wouldn't work according to the logical rules we know. Speaking in terms of Western culture, our rules of logic are exactly the same as those of the ancient Greeks. Of that, scripture says:

For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age?

Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

martymonster · Dec 21, 2018

bbbbbbb said:
Who created Adam and Eve? Did He create flawed creatures? If not, how did the flaws find their way into them?

Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
Jer 18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

dad · Dec 21, 2018

bbbbbbb said:
What do you make of Psalms 14 and 53, especially the phrase, "There is none who seeks for God, not even one."?

Well, it shows that a savior needed to come.

Si_monfaith · Dec 21, 2018

David Cabrera said:
Not really, redemption could be predestined because God knew what would happen not that he wanted the Fall to happen.

If God foreknew the fall, how can anything different happen?

If something different could happen, doesn't it render God's foreknowledge meaningless?

Hammster · Dec 21, 2018

dad said:
Yes, of course, IF they choose to accept the gift HE gave. He lives up to His word.

I’m not asking if He keeps His word. I’m asking if there is anything about man that deserves salvation.

Hammster · Dec 21, 2018

liberty of conscience said:
God sought after man (Genesis 3:8). Jesus came to seek and save that which was the one lost sheep (this lost world).

to "seek" is to actively make decision. Men had the choice, even all the way back from Genesis 3:15.

In the beginning God ... (there's a sermon right there for you)

Yet, sin did not originate with God.

Your view oh God makes Him an abject failure. If He came to seek and save, and doesn’t succeed, then He has failed.

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 21, 2018

Hammster said:
Your view oh God makes Him an abject failure. If He came to seek and save, and doesn’t succeed, then He has failed.

Matthew 13:58 And He did not do many miracles there, because of ...

https://biblehub.com/matthew/13-58.htm
And he did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief. Contemporary English Version And because the people did not have any faith, Jesus did not ...
So Jesus FAILED TOO !?!?!

No. People rejected God. People rejected Jesus. Most all the people on earth reject the Truth.

Hammster · Dec 21, 2018

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Matthew 13:58 And He did not do many miracles there, because of ...

Matthew 13:58 And He did not do many miracles there, because of their unbelief.
And he did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief. Contemporary English Version And because the people did not have any faith, Jesus did not ...
So Jesus FAILED TOO !?!?!

No. People rejected God. People rejected Jesus. Most all the people on earth reject the Truth.

Shepherds don’t ask their sheep if they want to be saved. They just save them. Because they love them.

Christ saves all of His sheep. 100 percent.

SavedByGrace3 · Dec 21, 2018

Hammster said:
Shepherds don’t ask their sheep if they want to be saved. They just save them. Because they love them.

Christ saves all of His sheep. 100 percent.

Nor do the fish choose to go into the net. Nor do the eyes choose what will come into view.

Maria Billingsley · Dec 21, 2018

David Cabrera said:
For those who believe in God predestine events, was the Fall one of them?

We are made in His image. It was pure from the beginning. He gave man everything and only one request and amazingly a very simple request! Imagine if we were Adam and Eve having the foreknowledge of the fall just by eating a piece of fruit. How crazy is that? God and man were a team and man made a promise to God. Man broke that promise. So I do no think it was pre ordained at all. It was simply man breaking a promise that devastated God after all that He gave him. God knows flesh is weak which is why He only gave Adam and Eve one command. I believe God trusted they would be able to keep it but man from the beginning rejected God and so here we are .

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 21, 2018

Who teaches that Adam and Chavah (Eve) made ANY PROMISE to anyone ?

dad · Dec 21, 2018

Hammster said:
I’m not asking if He keeps His word. I’m asking if there is anything about man that deserves salvation.

No. We can't save ourselves.

redleghunter · Dec 21, 2018

David Cabrera said:
So was Jesus human will predestined?

That's an odd question on how I explained the human will .

redleghunter · Dec 21, 2018

David Cabrera said:
All ideas on predestination we're developed from Calvin, even the TULIP.

This is incorrect. Both the apostle Peter and Paul revealed the terms predestined and foreknowledge.

I showed the Scriptures now please respond to what I posted.

Serving Zion · Dec 21, 2018

David Cabrera said:
No foreknowledge, but making it happen.

Clearly not: James 1:13, Genesis 3:14, Genesis 6:6.

.. but you seem to know this already.. I don't see that your understanding is lacking, can you please confirm your motive?

Did God predestine the Fall?

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