Did God predestine the Fall?

Oct 21, 2003
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Though I have strong disagreements, thank you for sharing your opinions. Honestly it would take quite some time to respond in full. I would probably go into details about blood sacrifice in the Old Testament, details concerning Old Testament prophecies of the Messiah, and perhaps respond to the religious dualism, palagianism, and a low view of the sovereignty of God I perceive in your response.
 
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redleghunter

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So you believe Jesus satisfied the wrath due to us by ransoming us from Satan and evil people?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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"God wanted to crush Him".
Isa 53:10
Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes[fn] his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

Isaiah 53:1 (NIV)
 
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Serving Zion

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But I was alive once apart from the law .. and when the commandment came, then sin came to life and I died. The commandment meant for life was found to bring death - why? Because sin took an opportunity through the commandment. Why? Because the commandment was not delivered perfectly - we live in a fallen world. That fallen world is not what God created, neither is it what I asked for, but it is what our forefathers have given to us. They are the ones who beat children, they are the children of wrath, and that is how death spreads to all because all come to be sinners.
 
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Hammster

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If you are going ignore scripture then there’s nothing more to say.
 
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I'm not sure if you realise how irresponsible that is ("sloth" is a mortal sin). Please consider James 5:19-20, Mark 9:41, 1 John 3:17 and Ephesians 4:16.
 
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No. We all were born dead, not born alive, in our trespasses and sin.
(even without the TORAH)
Do you have any scripture to show that? (I have only ever found it to be a false doctrine without scriptural support).
 
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If you are going ignore scripture then there’s nothing more to say.
I just quoted scripture, and it is you who appears to have ignored it. It is better, given that fact, that you say no more.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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So you believe Jesus satisfied the wrath due to us by ransoming us from Satan and evil people?
No that is not how it works. John the Baptist said that "the one who trusts the son has eternal life" (meaning, that they do not suffer the spiritual death that is the condemnation for sin) "but whoever does not obey the son does not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" .. and that is why the religious leaders were driven to murder Him. The wrath of God was abiding on them. Same as what happened to St. Stephen: they covered their ears and dragged him outside and ..

God's wrath wasn't satisfied by Jesus' crucifixion, as the apostates teach. It was extinguished.

It was the wrath of man that crucified Him, because they "hated the light and refused to go near it for fear their deeds would be exposed" (John 3:19-21).
 
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The NIV is misleading you. I don't accept NIV as scripture - they are false prophets, having grossly erred.
 
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Just to be clear: the false doctrines of Inherited Sin teach that children are spiritually condemned because of the sin of Adam.. but I reject that doctrine. The proper doctrine is that the kingdom of heaven belongs to them, and that sin reigns through those who have been "James 1:14-15", and now that the whole world "lies in the power of the evil one" (because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God), therefore sin spreads to all before they reach the age of adulthood maturity, so that "the commandment came and through it, sin took advantage and killed them".

To reject the fact that children are born pure and without sin, spiritually alive, is to condemn the innocent - and that is an inferior spirit that doesn't belong in Christianity, it is a perversion of justice and a root of all the lies that 2 Peter 2:2 "many follow their depraved conduct and bring the way of truth into disrepute".
 
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Hammster

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I just quoted scripture, and it is you who appears to have ignored it. It is better, given that fact, that you say no more.
Try addressing what I posted that corrected your misconception of what is taught in scripture. Then you can go on a rabbit trail about another topic.
 
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Try addressing what I posted that corrected your misconception of what is taught in scripture. Then you can go on a rabbit trail about another topic.
I did. You are not listening (We are from God; whoever knows God listens to us, but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.).
 
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Hammster

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See 1 John 2:2
 
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See 1 John 2:2
Hammster, you need to explain why you think that scripture is some kind of recourse.. otherwise you are not really being reasonable at all. I already know that scripture, and it is useful to me when I teach.
 
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I did. You are not listening (We are from God; whoever knows God listens to us, but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.).
No, you just posted other scripture. I showed you that we are like children of wrath. Please address that scripture and we will move on.
 
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Hammster, you need to explain why you think that scripture is some kind of recourse.. otherwise you are not really being reasonable at all. I already know that scripture, and it is useful to me when I teach.
It says that Christ is the propitiation. God’s wrath was satisfied.
 
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