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The substitution of Christ for us is deeply imbedded in Holy Writ.That's the problem with the Penal Substitution Atonement doctrine.
An exhibition on the Gospel. How refreshing to see. Thanks!No, we are all cursed, that is the Pauline doctrine:
Sin came as the result of, 'many died by the trespass of the one man' (Rom. 5:15), 'judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation' (Rom. 5:16), the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man (Rom. 5:17), 'just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men' (Rom. 5:18), 'through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners' (Rom. 5:19).You must be born again:
At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:3-7)I never said there was no such thing as free will or a time of decision, that's a strawman. The emphasis in the New Testament is on what God did and does, not your choice. So far I've yet to see Predestination seriously refuted as a formal doctrine. It would be hard to do since we get the word from Paul:
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. (Eph. 1;11-14)God predestined and foreknew what how we are saved, because righteousness can only come from him. Of course you have a choice, predestination isn't fate, it's the plans and purposes of God that have not changed since the foundation of the world. Who denies that we have a choice whether or not we 'put our hope in Christ', as Paul describes it? The issue here is justification by grace through faith and the washing, renewing and regeneration that comes from the Holy Spirit. Faith is not a work, Jesus being the author and finisher of our faith:
Looking unto Jesus, the author (originator) and finisher (perfecter) of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Heb. 12:2)I'm told by some that I'm not a very good Calvinist, I can live with that, I've also been told I'm not really a Creationist, I'm not buying that either. But if you want to consider this from the perspective of a solid Calvinist, try this guy:
Faith and repentance are gifts of God, just like grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. At some level you have a choice, when did God know what that would be is a pointless question. Salvation is based on a revelation only God can make to you (Romans 3:21-22). I have always been puzzled how people could turn the Sabbath or water baptism into works, yet somehow they manage. What I find absent in your arguments is the gospel, where does the cross and the work of the Holy Spirit fit into your ideas regarding salvation? Everything related to salvation whether justification, sanctification or works of righteousness are gifts of God.
- Based on 2 Timothy 2:25–26, how would you describe yourself before God granted you repentance? What language does Paul give to describe our condition?
- Is there true knowledge of God that does not spring from repentance? Can you think of examples in the Bible?
- How does the devil ensnare people? And how does God defeat their bondage to the devil? (God May Grant Repentance 2 Timothy 2:24–26 John Piper)
Grace and peace,
Mark
What I've learned is that justification by grace through faith is no disputed by any Christian systematic theology. The justification of grace through faith alone, does have it's controversial elements. TULIP is difficult to unpack, care must be exercised while unfolding the relevant doctrines. It speaks directly to soteriology, we all do what we have to to decide where we stand on the issues. I said I don't intend to impose my theology on anyone, not that I am ambiquise about what I think salvation includes with regards to sound doctrine. I do find merit in Arminianism, Catholic and Orthodox systems but can't embrace them as reliable systems, there is always something that gives me pause. I try to take into consideration where people are coming from and would never dream of dismissing a Christian profession as long as they hold to essential doctrine. I sometimes disagree, even with my fellow Calvinists, but most of the time it's with regards to our approach to things like apologetics and the ministry of the Word. These matters do no reflect any animosity whatsoever, they are an honest difference of opinion. Like I said, if you disagree I have no problem with you, go in peace. But I have benefited from Calvinism greatly and intend to pursue further study since it's the best of the systematic theologies I have found. You may or may not agree with my approach but I am not about to set Calvinism against other systems that I find merit in, even if I disagree with them on important points.So another wards tulip, in regards to soteriology, isn’t essential doctrine a believer adheres to according to you? Not quite understanding what you said no to. But that’s what I get. Completely disagree with you on this. Calvinism in regards to the doctrines of grace, is the gospel according to scripture. One does not have to go through a systematic study on theology to come to understand and believe these great truths of the gospel. That’s certainly not how the Lord brought me to see these truths. So what merit can Arminianism or Roman Catholic or Orthodox bring to these truths of the gospel? They are completely opposed to the gospel of grace as you can see on many threads on this forum. The Spirit of God does not lead the elect to opposing views regarding essential soteriology doctrine. No believer will disagree with tulip
Yea we don't get near enough of that do we? Yet we persist, that remains the challenge.An exhibition on the Gospel. How refreshing to see. Thanks!
There you go, been waiting to hear that one. The cross and the work of God in salvation is what prevails in the New Testament witness.You should care. It helps with humility.
So another wards tulip, in regards to soteriology, isn’t essential doctrine a believer adheres to according to you? Not quite understanding what you said no to. But that’s what I get. Completely disagree with you on this. Calvinism in regards to the doctrines of grace, is the gospel according to scripture. One does not have to go through a systematic study on theology to come to understand and believe these great truths of the gospel. That’s certainly not how the Lord brought me to see these truths. So what merit can Arminianism or Roman Catholic or Orthodox bring to these truths of the gospel? They are completely opposed to the gospel of grace as you can see on many threads on this forum. The Spirit of God does not lead the elect to opposing views regarding essential soteriology doctrine. No believer will disagree with tulip
I agree with you brother. Was raised with the majority of my family being Roman Catholic and part of my family under free will Baptist. No doubt Gods elect are among those groups. But when God saves them, He will most definitely bring them out from those groups as He did with me. I am convinced by Gods Spirit no believer will disagree with tulip. The brainwashing of these groups may be a hindrance but Gods Spirit will most definitely lead us to embrace the doctrines of gracehello MDC, I understand both points of view. Thing is, God can/has/does save His elect even despite...inferior, flawed, erroneous systematics of whatever Christian group they may be learning from at the given time. With enough time, and serious study in the Scriptures, they may come to a truer understanding of Scripture, or Calvinism. I am with you in believing the doctrines of grace are the truest expression of the gospel according to Scripture. At the same time, because monergistic regeneration is the work of God alone, the extent of what follows so far as knowledge and metal assertion to propositions, well God knows, and I think it is real basic, so basic a child can understand. I confess to having come from years and years of Wesleyan doctrines drilled into my conscience, and by the sovereign grace and mercies of God, became a convinced Calvinist after a book's worth of details that led up to the moment.
You are wrong about that.It’s in the Bible.
That's not what I am speaking against though.The substitution of Christ for us is deeply imbedded in Holy Writ.
Off-topic. You've got the wrong idea about me in order to say this.That a post modern SJW society mentality cannot accept the Cross is not surprising. In the victim class mentality the Cross is foolishness.
That's useful, but it doesn't support PSA (unless someone is not paying close attention to the words .. as they seem to do when they get in that bind).Read Acts 2:23. And Isaiah 53.
That's the problem with the Penal Substitution Atonement doctrine.
It wasn't love that did that to Him, but the men that were unable to endure the light of His presence (John 1:11, Matthew 21:37-39, John 3:20).
What is "UT"? I'll explain once I know what that means.. (to help me with gauging the context of my speech).No, I said "to the outsider" meaning non-believers. I do not see whatever problem you have with PSA, rather I see where it solves former problems I had back when I held to UT. But please explain your thoughts if you don't mind.
I'd like to see the scriptures you are referencing.Exactly, very true, and it is also true the son of perdition was prophesied by the prophets of old long before he was born. Could it have happened any other way?
What is "UT"? I'll explain once I know what that means.. (to help me with gauging the context of my speech).
I'd like to see the scriptures you are referencing.
There is only one type of substitution.That's not what I am speaking against though.
That's ok, but it's still not what I'm talking about.There is only one type of substitution.
If the wages of sin is death then death is the penalty paid by Jesus Christ.
Perhaps I missed it but you were questioning penal Substitution.That's ok, but it's still not what I'm talking about.
Ok, I see where you are coming from.Universal atonement, probably should have abbreviated UA, sorry only half awake today.
No I do not support any doctrine that says "God wanted to crush Him". It was the humans that wanted to crush Him, because they could not endure the wrath of God that was coming upon them for their sin. It was their sin that crushed Jesus (John 19:11). But it pleased God to crush Him .. why?John 17:12 (refers to Judas)
PERDITION
per-dish'-un (apoleia, "ruin" or "loss," physical or eternal):
The word "perdition" occurs in the English Bible 8 times (John 17:12; Philippians 1:28; 2 Thessalonians 2:3; 1 Timothy 6:9; Hebrews 10:39; 2 Peter 3:7; Revelation 17:11,18). In each of these cases it denotes the final state of ruin and punishment which forms the opposite to salvation. The verb apolluein, from which the word is derived, has two meanings:
(1) to lose;
(2) to destroy.
Both of these pass over to the noun, so that apoleia comes to signify:
(1) loss;
(2) ruin, destruction.
The Son of Perdition is a name given to Judas (John 17:12) and to the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:3). This is the well-known Hebrew idiom by which a person typically embodying a certain trait or character or destiny is called the son of that thing. The name therefore represents Judas and the Antichrist (see MAN OF SIN) as most irrecoverably and completely devoted to the final apoleia.
Geerhardus Vos - International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (1915, James Orr General Editor)
The following is from an article by John Piper which connects Old Testament Scriptures concerning Judas with their fulfillment in the New:
3. God’s Role in the Murder of His Son
This brings us now to the third and final question — the most important one: Where was God when this happened? Or more precisely: What was God’s role or non-role in the most spectacular sin that ever happened — the murder of Jesus Christ?
To answer a question like that we should put our hands on our mouths and silence our philosophical speculations. Our opinions don’t count here. All that counts is what God himself has shown us in his word. And the first thing he shows us is that the details surrounding the death of Jesus are prophesied in God’s word hundreds of years before they happen.
The Scriptures prophesy that evil men will reject Jesus when he comes.
Matthew 21:42: “Jesus said to them [quoting Psalm 118:22], ‘Have you never read in the Scriptures: “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this was the Lord’s doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes”?’”
The Scriptures prophesy that Jesus must be hated.
In John 15:25, Jesus quoted Psalm 35:19 and said, “The word that is written in their Law must be fulfilled: ‘They hated me without a cause.’”
The Scriptures prophesy that the disciples would abandon Jesus.
In Matthew 26:31, he quotes Zechariah 13:7: “You will all fall away because of me this night. For it is written, ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’”
The Scriptures prophesy that Jesus will be pierced but none of his bones will be broken.
John quotes Psalm 34:20 and Zechariah 12:10 and says, “One of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear. . . . For these things took place that the Scripture might be fulfilled: ‘Not one of his bones will be broken.’ And again another Scripture says, ‘They will look on him whom they have pierced’” (John 19:34–37).
The Scriptures prophesy that Jesus would be betrayed by a close friend for thirty pieces of silver.
In John 13:18, Jesus cites Psalm 41:9 and says, “I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’”
And in Matthew 26:24, Jesus says, “The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed!”
And in Matthew 27:9–10, it says, “Then was fulfilled what had been spoken by the prophet Jeremiah, saying, ‘And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him on whom a price had been set by some of the sons of Israel, and they gave them for the potter’s field, as the Lord directed me’” (Jeremiah 19:1–13; Zechariah 11:12–13).
And not only the Scriptures, but Jesus himself prophesies, down to the details, how he will be killed.
In Mark 10:33–34, he says, “See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the scribes, and they will condemn him to death and deliver him over to the Gentiles. And they will mock him and spit on him, and flog him and kill him. And after three days he will rise.”
And on that last night, Jesus looked at Peter and said, “Truly, I tell you, this very night, before the rooster crows, you will deny me three times” (Matthew 26:34).
According to His Sovereign Will
From all these prophesies, we know that God foresaw, and did not prevent, and therefore included in his plan that his Son would be rejected, hated, abandoned, betrayed, denied, condemned, spit upon, flogged, mocked, pierced, and killed. All these are explicitly in God’s mind before they happen as things that he plans will happen to Jesus. These things did not just happen. They were foretold in God’s word. God knew they would happen and could have planned to stop them, but didn’t. So they happened according to his sovereign will.
And all of them were evil. They were sin. It is sin to reject, hate, abandon, betray, deny, condemn, spit upon, flog, mock, pierce, and kill the morally perfect, infinitely worthy, divine Son of God. And yet the Bible is explicit and clear that God himself planned these things. It is explicit not only in all the prophetic texts we have seen, but also in passages that say even more plainly that God brought these things to pass.
God Brought It to Pass
For example, in Isaiah 53:6, 10, it says, “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned — every one — to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. . . . It was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief.” So behind the spitting and flogging and mocking and piercing is the invisible hand and plan of God.
And I say that carefully and with trembling. This truth is too big and too weighty and too shocking to be glib about or to be cocky about. I choose to say that the invisible hand and plan of God are behind these most spectacular sins in all the universe — more grievous and more spectacular than the fall of Satan or any others. The reason I use these very words is because the Bible says it in those very words.
The Hand and Plan of God
In Acts 4:27–28, we have the clearest, most explicit statement about God’s hand and plan behind the horrific crucifixion of his Son.
Truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand (cheir) and your plan (boule) had predestined to take place.
Those are the two words I am using: the hand of God and the plan of God. It is a strange way of speaking — to say that God’s hand and plan have predestined something to happen. One does not ordinarily think of God’s “hand” predestining. How does a hand predestine? Here’s what I think it means: the hand of God ordinarily stands for God’s exerted power — not power in the abstract, but earthly, effective exertions of power. The point of combining it with “plan” is to say that it is not just a theoretical plan; it is plan that will be executed by God’s own hand.
This explains Isaiah 53:10: “It was the will of the Lord to bruise him; he has put him to grief.” Or more literally, with the King James Version, “It pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief.” The Lord bruised him. Behind Herod and Pilate and the Gentiles and the people of Israel was Jesus’s own Father who loved him with an infinite love.
The Gospel: God at Work in Death
Why should this matter to you? It should matter because if God were not the main Actor in the death of Christ, then the death of Christ could not save us from our sins and we would perish in hell forever. The reason the death of Christ is the heart of the gospel — the heart of the good news — is God was doing it. Romans 5:8: “God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” If you break God’s activity from the death of Jesus, you lose the gospel. This was God’s doing. It is the highest and deepest point of his love for sinners — his love for you.
“If you break God’s activity from the death of Jesus, you lose the gospel.”
Romans 8:3)
God condemned sin in Jesus’s flesh with our condemnation. So we are free.
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us. (Galatians 3:13)
God cursed Jesus with the curse that belonged on us. So we are free.
For our sake [God] made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2 Corinthians 5:21)
God imputed our sin to him, and now we go free in God’s righteousness.
He was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities. (Isaiah 53:5)
God wounded him. God crushed him. For you and me. And we go free."
SOURCE
It's about who is demanding the penalty - does God really demand blood? (see above - it is the adversary who made that demand, because of the power he has by having taken captive the minds of the fallen, to do his will).Perhaps I missed it but you were questioning penal Substitution.
If so then is there any other type?
1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sinsYou are wrong about that.
For those who believe in God predestine events, was the Fall one of them?
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