Did God Make Gays, Gay?

[Inside Edge]

Perhaps learning to read an enitre post to start with would be a good begining? The link I provided http://www.leaderu.com/focus/gaytheology.html
provides rebuttal to every homosexual bit of theology that homosexuals and their supporters have managed to come up with, hopefully you will find it enlightening.

Kdet,

I did read the entire post, and although I didn't read every article in your link, I did read 2 or 3 of them, quite attentively.

Of the articles I read, none of them are anything more than extensions - not explanations or further analyses - of the superficial arguments I've seen from posts of similar viewpoints. I will explain:

Firstly, they are seductively filled with literary tactics which reak of arrogance in the least, and venom at their worst. Statements such as "These arguments do not sit well with most serious Christians," are false and implicitly insult those who do not share the author's position. So if I do not agree with his comment, it means I am not a serious Christian? To a somewhat well-read person, I would think this kind of tactic is insulting. An author should not need to use manipulative language to make his point, if his point is sound.

The authors continually commit the same fallacies that many posters in this forum have: as they throw up bible quotes (out of context, I might add), they operate on the assumption that homosexuality is bad, and do nothing to explain or enlighten. My questions for them are similar to what I've asked here: How did they arrive to the conclusion that a given passage indicates condemnation; why is their translation correct, is there historical and philological evidence to support their claim; and can they show fallacy (again through linguistic, literary, or historical means) in the opposition's interpretation.

No where in those articles do I find the kind of thorough, careful and lucid explanation that some of the "pro-gay" posters have contributed. And that's saying something, seeing as there was page after exhaustive page of polemic in the link you provided!

 

[chalice_thunder]

...because I look at the church leaders who are promoting gay marriage (I wont name them) and struggle to believe many of them are even Christian!!

Good that you won't name them. It is not your business to decide if they are Christian or not.

... someone like Bishop Spong who thinks the Bible is out of date trash, obviously proving He isnt even a Christian but a false teacher, and no wonder he would support gay marriage.

This proves that you have not read any of Spong's books. He does not think the bible is out of date trash - he has a veritable love affair with Scripture. What he intends to point out is that many people's literal interpretation of scripture tends to suck the power out of it. This may, in turn, cause you to think he's calling it "out-of-date trash."

 

[Pastor_Benjamin]

God doesn't make people gay, gay is something that is learned.

 

[Why?]

God doesn't make people gay, gay is something that is learned.

That is meerly your opinion.

 

[joebudda]

God doesn't make people gay, gay is something that is learned.

And how does one learn how to be gay.

On the first page of this thread you will see that some believe it is a curse.

 

[Volos]

God doesn't make people gay, gay is something that is learned.

Leaving aside the complete lack of evidence to support his claim….





I was engaged in a similar conversation in another thread on just this topic. The thread got trashed (surprise surprise) before we could get to any real meat of the issue at hand.



You are claiming that homosexuality is learned.

is heterosexuality also learned?

exactly how (in your opinion) is homosexuality learned?

 

[Andy D]

Good that you won't name them. It is not your business to decide if they are Christian or not.

This proves that you have not read any of Spong's books. He does not think the bible is out of date trash - he has a veritable love affair with Scripture. What he intends to point out is that many people's literal interpretation of scripture tends to suck the power out of it. This may, in turn, cause you to think he's calling it "out-of-date trash."

I wouldnt want to read any of his trashy anti Christian books either! Sorry but that description you just gave doesnt match what his statements were when I saw him on TV and heard him on radio, etc. He was pretty clear on the fact that Bible was no more than just another book...whilst good, it needed to be updated and many parts couldnt be taken seriously anymore. Sorry but it is my business to decide if someone is a false teacher because I must make that decision. I must question what teachers say and in this case, he changes what he thinks about as much as he thinks the Bible should be changed....which is very often it seems.

 

[slayer-2004]

Deep down inside I think these people realise that if they accept homosexuality that they accept the fact that the book they hold so precious and dear , really isnt the infallible work of God they make it out to be .

As such , just like Nexus said , they will hang on to these hatefull beliefs to the death in order to defend their faith . Which is why we keep getting the same illogical responses no matter what we point out . People will accept this when they are ready , and for those who have had the bible crammed into there minds since the day they first saw the world they will never be ready . 1+1=3 is as true to them as the fact that the sky is blue .

In other words , this topic is going and will continue to go ---- > nowhere .

 

[mpshiel]

Deep down inside I think these people realise that if they accept homosexuality that they accept the fact that the book they hold so precious and dear , really isnt the infallible work of God they make it out to be .

As such , just like Nexus said , they will hang on to these hatefull beliefs to the death in order to defend their faith . Which is why we keep getting the same illogical responses no matter what we point out . People will accept this when they are ready , and for those who have had the bible crammed into there minds since the day they first saw the world they will never be ready . 1+1=3 is as true to them as the fact that the sky is blue .

In other words , this topic is going and will continue to go ---- > nowhere .

Makes sense as long as you assume gay Christians are either deluded or don't look at the bible. I accept that God is and that the bible is His/Her inspired world. I don't however accept that every interpretation is inspired. Any close examination of this history of an interpretation of a word will show that. Particularly regarding ambigious words with social/sexual meanings. How a single word can be interpreted by 2nd century Christians as "without moral fibre or a sense of duty", by 5th century Christians as, "those giving themselves over to their (Sexual) desire) by the 15 century to mean masturbation and currently interpreted by some as "those who recieve homosexual acts" will give you an idea of how things tend to float around.

I think Christians are prone to want to believe they have all the answers or that the bible can provide for them some sort of total answer book instead of being full of contradictions, points of view and "I don't knows" - Church history reflects that as one group continues to keep the Jewish days while another throws them all out and makes new one while a third group "converts" well know pagan days.

I think Romans demonstrates that even during that time there were many issues that different people in the church within the lifetime of Christ viewed radically differently. Paul's opinion was pretty much, "as long as you don't try to offend each other...so what?" We tend to downplay what they saw at vital things at the time because we don't consider it vital...meat offered to idols..who cares. Well if you are a gentile who has been convinced that worshipping one of the 1800 different temples or dieties was worshipping nothing, offending God or worshipping Satan then to participate in any way with "a life of sin" would have been seen as grievously immoral to them. Today we have "ex-gay" while back then they had "ex-aphrodite" or "ex-Jupiterite" who immeditely saw ANYTHING connected to the temples as wrong. To others, it wasn't a big deal.

I honestly can't tell you why Christians and homosexuality is such a volitile mix these days. I agree with you that it isn't logical in any way. A mother can accept that her daughter is moving in with her boyfriend, though unhappy about it but still flips out if she finds out her daughter is gay. One case I knew, the mother could accept that her daughter was a call girl (or fallen as she referred to it), but refused to acknowledge that she had girlfriends ("because that would be an abomination before God") - go figure?

 

[Acquired Tastes]

No, I don't think God "makes" people gay. Although I do think homosexuality is a sin, I wouldn't say God "curses" people with it either. I think it's more an enviromental trait than anything.

 

[joebudda]

No, I don't think God "makes" people gay. Although I do think homosexuality is a sin, I wouldn't say God "curses" people with it either. I think it's more an enviromental trait than anything.

So within the environment of my family within just two generations, four members of my family are gay. Yet this only happened on my father’s side. My father is gay and his sister (my aunt) has 3 sons that are gay.

We are all close and I don’t believe that my family grew up any different then any other.

Is there any proof of it being environmental that you may have? Because as far as I can tell they just were always gay, I don’t seem to remember any kind of change that happened.

 

[cabbitgrrrl]

Deep down inside I think these people realise that if they accept homosexuality that they accept the fact that the book they hold so precious and dear , really isnt the infallible work of God they make it out to be .

As such , just like Nexus said , they will hang on to these hatefull beliefs to the death in order to defend their faith . Which is why we keep getting the same illogical responses no matter what we point out . People will accept this when they are ready , and for those who have had the bible crammed into there minds since the day they first saw the world they will never be ready . 1+1=3 is as true to them as the fact that the sky is blue .

In other words , this topic is going and will continue to go ---- > nowhere .

lol i agree, noone is going to convince the other side of who is right and wrong in a situation like this, some christians wouldnt budge even if they had incredible amounts of scientific proof

 

[ONE WHO REMAINS]

To end this I will do it in a fashion in which it should have started. God did not make gays gay. We were all born into sin, because we aren't perfect. We are blank canvas' and from there the devil will tempt you and guide you if you listen. So in a way the devil made gays gay. The End! And it was done.

 

[Andy D]

Makes sense as long as you assume gay Christians are either deluded or don't look at the bible. I accept that God is and that the bible is His/Her inspired world. I don't however accept that every interpretation is inspired. Any close examination of this history of an interpretation of a word will show that. Particularly regarding ambigious words with social/sexual meanings. How a single word can be interpreted by 2nd century Christians as "without moral fibre or a sense of duty", by 5th century Christians as, "those giving themselves over to their (Sexual) desire) by the 15 century to mean masturbation and currently interpreted by some as "those who recieve homosexual acts" will give you an idea of how things tend to float around.

I think Christians are prone to want to believe they have all the answers or that the bible can provide for them some sort of total answer book instead of being full of contradictions, points of view and "I don't knows" - Church history reflects that as one group continues to keep the Jewish days while another throws them all out and makes new one while a third group "converts" well know pagan days.

I think Romans demonstrates that even during that time there were many issues that different people in the church within the lifetime of Christ viewed radically differently. Paul's opinion was pretty much, "as long as you don't try to offend each other...so what?" We tend to downplay what they saw at vital things at the time because we don't consider it vital...meat offered to idols..who cares. Well if you are a gentile who has been convinced that worshipping one of the 1800 different temples or dieties was worshipping nothing, offending God or worshipping Satan then to participate in any way with "a life of sin" would have been seen as grievously immoral to them. Today we have "ex-gay" while back then they had "ex-aphrodite" or "ex-Jupiterite" who immeditely saw ANYTHING connected to the temples as wrong. To others, it wasn't a big deal.

I honestly can't tell you why Christians and homosexuality is such a volitile mix these days. I agree with you that it isn't logical in any way. A mother can accept that her daughter is moving in with her boyfriend, though unhappy about it but still flips out if she finds out her daughter is gay. One case I knew, the mother could accept that her daughter was a call girl (or fallen as she referred to it), but refused to acknowledge that she had girlfriends ("because that would be an abomination before God") - go figure?

Some of what you said makes a lot of sense. But, I dont agree with the His/Her part

Anyhow, back to the argument, I know what you mean regarding the mothers accepting sons or daughters living with their partners before marriage although my parents are still SET against it and pray heaps. It hurts me when a brother or sister is a Christian and lives with their partner..I warn them it is wrong but mostly all I can do is pray that God helps them to realise what they are doing. As far as a mother being upset about her daughter being gay, well mothers do generally want grandchildren..probably a natural thing and if their child is gay, how can they have children? They cant...not without much medical intervention..and in the case of guys, not at all. They can really only adopt someone else's...not their own flesh and blood. I understand the mother flipping out more so when this happens...probably a natural thing to do...(however I am not a mother...so just using some sort of logic to help myself understand hehe)

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

To end this I will do it in a fashion in which it should have started. God did not make gays gay. We were all born into sin, because we aren't perfect. We are blank canvas' and from there the devil will tempt you and guide you if you listen. So in a way the devil made gays gay. The End! And it was done.

Wrong. If a god actually existed, that god does create people with a homosexual orientation because it is an innate trait.

 

[Andy D]

And because you said it, that is the end of the story LOL. If a god existed? You do believe in God right Mechanical Bliss?

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

And because you said it, that is the end of the story LOL.

I see you missed the point. Perhaps you should have read the post to which I was replying, as that's where I derived the definitive styling of my reply.

However it's not just because I said it, but that every single medical and behavioral science institution agrees and so does the evidence. Such information has already been provided to the OPer and consistently ignored. However he still made the same "say so/end of story" post in the end. You could have directed your statement toward him, becauase that's where the format originated.

If a god existed? You do believe in God right Mechanical Bliss?

Of course not.

 

[cube66]

Homosexuality developes over time.

You cannot stop it nor start it.

It just happens.

Run from it and be paranoid and unhappy, or embrace it and be free.

 

[Volos]

of course god doesn't, the Goddess makes them gay

and I thank her daily for blessing me so.

 

[chalice_thunder]

To end this I will do it in a fashion in which it should have started. God did not make gays gay. We were all born into sin, because we aren't perfect. We are blank canvas' and from there the devil will tempt you and guide you if you listen. So in a way the devil made gays gay. The End! And it was done.

That is an ugly and hateful remark.

Can't you do better, for the sake of our Lord?