Did God know...

[theseed]

I believe that God knows what happens before it does... but that he created us to love us. He knew that some would not accept their gift, but he still wants to love us, and I think that he'd perfer us to love him of our own free will, instead of an internal robotic feeling inside that tells us to.


Carina

I beg your pardon, but the Holy Spirit is not a robotic force

 

[theseed]

God does not need to create people for desctruction, we made our own destruction, and unless God intervenes, we will perish.

Long explanation short, I favor the infralapsarian view. I beleive that God saw the whole world as predestined for hell, and chose to pardon some, and by default condemn the rest.

God does harden our heart, but it is not necessary becasue we are enslaved to our sinful natures.

 

[JM]

So God decided to save you, but not the man beside you? Perhaps he has given you more responsibility. Your job isn't to ride in the back of a float and be the Princess; you're suppose to be aiding the man beside you.

In other words, if you are implying that God designates people to die, I wholly disagree. No one is intentionally left behind.

God could have saved the man beside me, I don't know. I'm commanded to preach the Gospel and that's what I do...it's not about me it's about God and His glory. God isn't sitting around waiting for us to 'pick' Him, we can't. Paul wrote, 'there is no God seeker.'

What I'm saying is this (following the logic that we can pick God and save ourselves): God knew who would choose Him and who wouldn't, God created people that wouldn't choose Him anyways (knowing that they wouldn't choose Him) and be sent to Hell for sin. So, God created people for Hell by your logic...He knew who would end up in Hell and God created them anyways.

 

[BT]

On one end of the pendulum you get God is the author of sin (elect to damnation)

on the other end you get God doesn't know everything (open theism hyper-arminianism)

They are both wrong.

 

[JM]

On one end of the pendulum you get God is the author of sin (elect to damnation)

on the other end you get God doesn't know everything (open theism hyper-arminianism)

They are both wrong.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. KJV

No flaw in reason or the word.

 

[BT]

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. KJV

No flaw in reason or the word.

There are better scriptures than that to use if you wanted.

You still haven't answered my scriptures in the long post... (you don't have to if you don't want.. it's cool)

 

[JM]

Here's a tricky one..

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

God is the only Saviour for all men, are you stating that all men are saved? You can't have it both ways.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

No arguement with that, but does that mean all men are saved? If we say 'all' means 'all' then all are saved...but we both agree that's false. It's seems a bit like double talk. (Don't take it personal brother.)

And the top of them all
1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Creating a person for destruction and giving that person no way out, sentencing this person (before they have ever sinned) to an eternity of torment. My friend, that is not love.

In depends on what kind of love you are ascribing to God, it seems too human. God knows bad things are going to happen to His people, does he allow, yes. That doesn't make God a monster but it does show us how God works.

The Confession (Section 6 paragraph 1 and also in the Larger Catechism Question 19) declared that God 'permits' sin, but that it is not a 'bare permission'. (Section 5 paragraph 4) The permission that is adopted by the Assembly is one that occurs by a voluntary decision of God which he need not have made, had he so pleased. He might have decided not to permit sin; in which case it would not have entered his universe. The 'bare permission' which is rejected by the Assembly means that God makes no voluntary decision at all in the case; that he could not have prevented the fall of angels and men, but stands 'like an idle spectator', having no control over the event which he witnesses.

I didn't know how to express the above so I quoted.

sp

 

[BT]

You haven't answered the scriptures...

I stink at quotes so please allow for the simple


Your first answer...
"God is the only Saviour for all men, are you stating that all men are saved? You can't have it both ways"

>> I'm not saying anything, it's a scripture verse. Exegete it and show how it excludes men or shows men set for damnation.

Your second answer...
"No arguement with that, but does that mean all men are saved? If we say 'all' means 'all' then all are saved...but we both agree that's false. It's seems a bit like double talk. (Don't take it personal brother.)"

>>>You still haven't answered the scripture. How could I take it personal, I didn't write it?

Your third answer...

"In depends on what kind of love you are ascribing to God, it seems too human. God knows bad things are going to happen to His people, does he allow, yes. That doesn't make God a monster but it does show us how God works."

>>>My friend. In love. This makes no sense. Exegete the scripture.

Your last answer....

Would you like me to disprove doctrine with a Catholic catechism? Use the scriptures.. you can not.

You skipped over half of them. Listen my friend. This is a tough subject. These verses and hordes more have been debated for hundreds of years by better men than us (at least they think so). If your view was iron clad you could prove it easily. But you can't because it adds to scripture. You are following the election of theology rather than the election of scripture. I'm sorry, but it's wrong. Now I know part of your story and I think it's great. God picked you. Sure. I won't argue that. But the 5 points are false, sorry. Please don't get mad just look...

 

[Razorbuck]

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 1 Timothy 4:10

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men Titus 2:11


In the 1 Timothy reference, Paul is simply saying salvation is offered to all men, but is effective only for those who believe. Same thing he says in Titus. He says the grace of God has appeared to all men, not that they have effectively grabbed the lifeline.

I guess I'm simpleminded. Why does the fact that God gifted His creation with freewill seem to be so offensive to some folks? Do they call it works salvation to simply accept the free gift of eternal life with God?

StreetPreacher, you used the term "save themselves" in one of your posts on this thread. Do I misread you, or do you consider the fact that as a dying man I one day cried out to God for mercy from a position of utter helplessness as 'saving myself'?

Please believe that I'm not trying to be a smarty-pants--I truly wish to understand your position.

 

[JM]

StreetPreacher, you used the term "save themselves" in one of your posts on this thread. Do I misread you, or do you consider the fact that as a dying man I one day cried out to God for mercy from a position of utter helplessness as 'saving myself'?

I'm saying you cried out to God, because God made a way for you to do so...all who believe will be saved but the gift of salvation isn't offered to all men. Romans 8:30;Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4

And don't forget, John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

The question is, why do people get upset when you say, 'God saved me.' Period. That's it, Jesus Christ died for me...plus nothing. I'm saved from sin...God is in control of everything...take a look at the following.

God Controls "Nature"

"Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar: The Lord of Hosts is His name" (Jeremiah 31:35)

"By the breath of God frost is given: and the breadth of the waters is straitened. Also by watering he wearieth the thick cloud: he scattereth his bright cloud: And it is turned about by His counsels: that they may do whatsoever He commandeth them upon the face of the whole world in the earth. He causeth it to come, whether for correction, or for His land, or for mercy" (Job 37:10-13)

"For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth". (Genesis 7:4)

God determines the length of your life

"All the days ordained (set apart) for me were written in your book before one of them came to be"
(Psalm 139"16)

"Is there not an appointed time to man upon earth? Are not his days also like the days of an hireling?" (Job 7:1)

"Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble...Seeing his days are determenied, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his boundes that he cannot pass" (Job 14:1, 5)

God controls your steps

"A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps" (Proverbs 16:9)

Gods control in regards to our hearts

Above when Solomon said "A mans heart deviseth his way, but the Lord directeth his steps", it must be noted the this verse cannot have been meant as a blanket statement over every single affair in our lives, (at least in regards to the heart that is). For upon my studies concerning the extent of Gods control in the affairs of men, I realized that the Bible explicitly teaches that God also has control of the heart. Sometimes it is not the man's heart who divises his way. Sometimes it is God who divises the ways of the mans heart and then He also controls mans steps on top of that.

"And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall the , and shall make her desolate and , and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil His will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled." (Revelation 17:16-17)

"And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: But I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go" (Exodus 4:21)

"And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the Lord: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: For they shall be my people, for they shall return unto me with their whole heart" (Jeremiah 24:6-7)

"But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people" (Jeremiah 31:33)

"And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto those things which were spoken of Paul" (Acts 16:14)

God controls all things

"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purposes of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will"
(Ephesians 1:11)

Is Calvinism Inconsistent with Free Will?
By Loraine Boettner

(From Chapter 16 of "The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination" entitled "Inconsistent with Free Agency")

THE PROBLEM OF MAN'S FREE AGENCY

The problem which we face here is, How can a person be a free and responsible agent if his actions have been foreordained from eternity? By a free and responsible agent we mean an intelligent person who acts with rational self-determination; and by foreordination we mean that from eternity God has made certain the actual course of events which takes place in the life of every person and in the realm of nature. It is, of course, admitted by all that a person's acts must be without compulsion and in accordance with his own desires and inclinations, or he cannot be held responsible for them. If the acts of a free agent are in their very nature contingent and uncertain, then it is plain that foreordination and free agency are inconsistent.

http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/full.asp?ID=128

With this, I'll end my posting under this topic. I've found that both sides tend to 'dig in' about this far into the talk and neither side is heard anymore.

God bless and may this always be an in house debate amoung believers.

sp

 

[BT]

God bless and may this always be an in house debate amoung believers.

sp



Amen. It at least stays civilised that way.

SP see we proved it. You can debate Calvinism without killing each other... See!

 

[BT]

With this, I'll end my posting under this topic. I've found that both sides tend to 'dig in' about this far into the talk and neither side is heard anymore.

ROFL

That's one way to get the last word!

ROFL

I love ya.

 

[Razorbuck]

Aaww, shucks. And it was just gettin' good, too...

{razorbuck heaves a big sigh, jams his hands in his pockets and trudges off feeling sorry for himself...}