Did God give Miller a false message on purpose?

[tall73]

I think her wording was God was angered at them instead of judging them at that point. Like I said earlier the main message was salvation.

Actually there was more than one passage. In one passage His anger was kindled. In another they were in league with Satan. At another point she characterized the ministers as having the blood of souls on them for rejecting the time-setting message on the basis of the definite time. Another place she says the churches by rejecting the 1843 message, the first angel's message as she terms it, fell from favor with God, and could not receive the second message. As the specific date was chosen she recounts that evil angels urged them to harden their hearts so that they might be fastened in the snare of Satan. She mentions again their repeating "no one knows the day or the hour".

I'm very clear that is your take on all of this but it's not mine. The way I see it is this event was preordained of God and prophetically predicted in Rev 10:10. God doesn't give us all and allows us to make mistakes as is evidenced in the Bible.

God pre-ordained an error and then was angry with those who rejected the very un-Scriptural error? If you can believe that more power to you. But note that God did not just allow it according to Ellen. He caused it. He kept His hand over the mistake in the figures. Even their mistakes she blames on God.

I'm not saying ignore them what I am saying if that if you are a man of the Bible you should be about disproving the IJ from it and EGW will drop out of contention all together. The tail does not wag the dog my friend.

I have studied the biblical material on it. However Ellen and the Millerites experience was central to this doctrine. They believed Rev. was talking about them. How do you leave them out of it? You can't.

Now I can see why some would want to with some of the things she says.

Remember the church holds Ellen as a continuing source of authority. They have made her a doctrine. You can't just forget about her as an Adventist and pretend what she says does not matter.

 

[Jimlarmore]

These posts are not being added sequentially at all. It makes it hard to follow the discussion when a response is put way back several pages before the quoted post was posted. Is there any way this can be fixed in the software or where ever the problem is?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[tall73]

edit, timestamp.

 

[tall73]

These posts are not being added sequentially at all. It makes it hard to follow the discussion when a response is put way back several pages before the quoted post was posted. Is there any way this can be fixed in the software or where ever the problem is?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

I wish it could be.

But it is the result of the Vbulletin update, and until the site owner works out the bugs we are stuck with it.

The big question is whether it is an issue of of the update itself or the various modifications in the code that CF has.

The owner bought the site, but Erwin coded this thing with tons of modifications. Assumedly Lee knows how they all work. But it may take time if they are the culprit to re-tune the modifications. Erwin generally had bugs after every update too and would have to re-adjust the code.

 

[Jimlarmore]

Actually there was more than one passage. In one passage His anger was kindled. In another they were in league with Satan. At another point she characterized the ministers as having the blood of souls on them for rejecting the time-setting message on the basis of the definite time. Another place she says the churches by rejecting the 1843 message, the first angel's message as she terms it, fell from favor with God, and could not receive the second message. As the specific date was chosen she recounts that evil angels urged them to harden their hearts so that they might be fastened in the snare of Satan. She mentions again their repeating "no one knows the day or the hour".


God pre-ordained an error and then was angry with those who rejected the very un-Scriptural error? If you can believe that more power to you. But note that God did not just allow it according to Ellen. He caused it. He kept His hand over the mistake in the figures. Even their mistakes she blames on God.

You are focused on the date setting when the primary purpose of the movement was salvation. It was the effect of rejecting salvation that God was angered about not that they were just rejecting a date set. This is where you are ignoring the context of what she is saying.

I have studied the biblical material on it. However Ellen and the Millerites experience was central to this doctrine. They believed Rev. was talking about them. How do you leave them out of it? You can't.

Nor have I tried to leave them out of it.

Now I can see why some would want to with some of the things she says.

Remember the church holds Ellen as a continuing source of authority. They have made her a doctrine. You can't just forget about her as an Adventist and pretend what she says does not matter.

I don't find any place in any of the fundamental beliefs that EGW or her writings are a doctrine of the church. She is used to clarify points of doctrine but what I see is the Bible used as a basis for all of the churches doctrines. The IJ is the only belief/doctrine that I have found that is not solidly grounded in all aspects by the Bible.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[tall73]

It's already there for all to read in the OP.

What is already there is a list of Ratzlaff's issues, and some answers.

Again, if you think some applies to my question then post it. But this continual resorting to having people read a whole document instead of stating your objections is silly. If he has great material then reduce it down to some cogent statement.

If not then retract.

True but you brought it up the second time here and now not me. I had no intention of bringing that back up. For some reason that experience of another former pastor really chaps you Tall,,,, why? If it's not something you would ever do why not just brush it off instead of making contentious hay out it? I never accused you of doing that or saying it would happen to you . I only gave it as an example of the slippery slope one ex-pastor experienced.

Because it is indicative of your usual method after a discussion goes on for a while-- judge motives and predict the "slippery slope."
You can stop doing it at any time.

I apologize if you think I am slamming you. I don't intend for it to be that way. I am not the only one who thought your posts became harsh after you left the church. I don't even think it was just trads who thought that.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

The progs all posted the opposite. Folks on other boards have said I have uplifting posts, though discussing the same issues.

I used to do my debating in GT. Now I do it here. I was the same person all along.

Now there was a time shortly after I left when I was very unhappy. It is no fun leaving everything you know, to listen to folks question your motives when you are trying to do what is right. I wouldn't doubt that I was less uplifting then.

 

[VictorC]

I wish it could be.

But it is the result of the Vbulletin update, and until the site owner works out the bugs we are stuck with it.

The big question is whether it is an issue of of the update itself or the various modifications in the code that CF has.

The owner bought the site, but Erwin coded this thing with tons of modifications. Assumedly Lee knows how they all work. But it may take time if they are the culprit to re-tune the modifications. Erwin generally had bugs after every update too and would have to re-adjust the code.

Mr. Tall! What a welcome surprise!
I decided to give CARM a rest for a while and see if the rumour mill has cranked out accurate information about this forum's members. No doubt you have noticed Reb posted those horrible rumours - I did see Sophia has contributed.

Anyway, I noticed right away that the navigation here is quite a bit different. The look and feel of this site isn't nearly as polished as CARM. But, in either location, I have found that selecting the default view to "thread view" in the (many) options offeres the only possible means to anchor a post directed to the intended recipient. That would be my suggestion for you to try, although I already know that you prefer the linear view.

Good to "see" you here.
Victor

 

[tall73]

Mr. Tall! What a welcome surprise!
I decided to give CARM a rest for a while and see if the rumour mill has cranked out accurate information about this forum's members. No doubt you have noticed Reb posted those horrible rumours - I did see Sophia has contributed.

Anyway, I noticed right away that the navigation here is quite a bit different. The look and feel of this site isn't nearly as polished as CARM. But, in either location, I have found that selecting the default view to "thread view" in the (many) options offeres the only possible means to anchor a post directed to the intended recipient. That would be my suggestion for you to try, although I already know that you prefer the linear view.

Good to "see" you here.
Victor

Welcome Victor

 

[VictorC]

I don't find any place in any of the fundamental beliefs that EGW or her writings are a doctrine of the church. She is used to clarify points of doctrine but what I see is the Bible used as a basis for all of the churches doctrines. The IJ is the only belief/doctrine that I have found that is not solidly grounded in all aspects by the Bible.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Hi, Jim.

Ellen is herself codified in the fundumental beliefs #18, where it is claimed:
As the Lord's messenger, her (Ellen's) writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction.

That right there makes it impossible for Adventism to simply dismiss Ellen.

It is also only in Ellen's writings that you can define the coded phrase "law of love" that appears in fundamental #10. I have sorted through these fundamentals before for another member on CARM, and I consider about 2/3 of the fundamentals to have dependence on Ellen White for at least part of their verbiage.

Victor

 

[VictorC]

Welcome Victor

Thanks!
You'll notice that here I use the posting name VictorC, which is because there is another CF member who has already taken my usual name Victor but life goes on...

 

[tall73]

You are focused on the date setting when the primary purpose of the movement was salvation. It was the effect of rejecting salvation that God was angered about not that they were just rejecting a date set. This is where you are ignoring the context of what she is saying.

Jim, she said God was in the TIME.

Now, Miller's proofs, if you read them even casually, are DEFINITELY about the time. Millers primary reason for speaking was that he was convinced on the 1843 time period and that the world would end with the coming of Christ and needed to warn the world.

But there is another issue here.

Those who rejected it did so ON THE BASIS OF THE TIME.

They followed the Scriptures.

Nor have I tried to leave them out of it.

Then why are you urging me to not talk about them and to only read the Bible?

I don't find any place in any of the fundamental beliefs that EGW or her writings are a doctrine of the church. She is used to clarify points of doctrine but what I see is the Bible used as a basis for all of the churches doctrines.

Here you go:

18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

Now they admit that the Bible tests all truth. Great.

Just one problem though--the whole Adventist experience was after the Bible was written. There is no way to present the Adventist doctrine without explaining Ellen White and the Millerite movement.

And much of the interpretation of the biblical material was endorsed by EGW who is a "continuing source of authority."

 

[Lebesgue]

Mr. Tall! What a welcome surprise!
I decided to give CARM a rest for a while and see if the rumour mill has cranked out accurate information about this forum's members. No doubt you have noticed Reb posted those horrible rumours - I did see Sophia has contributed.

Anyway, I noticed right away that the navigation here is quite a bit different. The look and feel of this site isn't nearly as polished as CARM. But, in either location, I have found that selecting the default view to "thread view" in the (many) options offeres the only possible means to anchor a post directed to the intended recipient. That would be my suggestion for you to try, although I already know that you prefer the linear view.

Good to "see" you here.
Victor

Welcome, Victor.

The "thread" I mentioned on CARM appears to have been deleted by the Mods(thankfully).

It devolved into what seemed to me to be a "dragging me through the mud" for things I posted on CARM as I mentioned on CARM.
I am glad the Mods got rid of it.

G-d Bless,

Shalom,

Lebesgue

 

[tall73]

Here is the issue again, as simply as I can put it:

Did Jesus come in 1843? No.

Would God judge someone because they thought Jesus would not come in 1843 on the basis of time-setting, which was ruled out by Jesus? No.

 

[tall73]

Here is the issue again, as simply as I can put it:

Did Jesus come in 1843? No.

Would God judge someone because they thought Jesus would not come in 1843 on the basis of time-setting, which was ruled out by Jesus? No.

 

[VictorC]

Welcome, Victor.

The "thread" I mentioned on CARM appears to have been deleted by the Mods(thankfully).

It devolved into what seemed to me to be a "dragging me through the mud" for things I posted on CARM as I mentioned on CARM.
I am glad the Mods got rid of it.

G-d Bless,

Shalom,

Lebesgue

It's going to take me a while to get used to your name change here; don't be surprised if I call you something weird, as you're still "Reb" in my mind.

I did see a companion thread started by Mr Tall, and a moderator locked that thread with the comments alluding to closure of the companion thread you were involved in.

Too bad. Mr Tall's comments that CARM exists as an apologetics forum were precisely on-target. Regardless of the sub-forum (RCC, SDA, Mormon, etc) no one gets a free license to post something with no expectation that it isn't going to be questioned. And by golly, you sure learn fast if you don't have your facts right. I only have the comments that a few have made to go on, but it appears CF is the "country club", while CARM is definately the "university of hard knocks".

Good to "see" you here.
I don't like the "feel" of this site, and navigation is decidedly less intuitive here.
But, I guess I can manage if the other folks can.
Don't be surprised if I miss replies to my posts, as this forum doesn't seem to have the automated tools to find them easily.

Victor

 

[OntheDL]

This was buries due to the bug...

Was the Millerites' message false? What did they actually proclaim? The message is found in Revelation 14:6,7,8.

The Millerites gave the 1st and the 2nd angels' message in 1843 & 1844.

This message was designed to be sweet as honey in the mouth but bitter in the belly. God had indeed in His divine wisdom covered the error of Miller's time setting even unto this day, save for the servants the prophets to discover the message to proclaim for the last days in fullness and in reality.

 

[OntheDL]

This was buries due to the bug...

Was the Millerites' message false? What did they actually proclaim? The message found in Revelation 14:6,7,8.

The Millerites gave the 1st and the 2nd angels' message in 1843 & 1844.

This message was meant to be sweet as honey in the mouth but bitter in the belly. God had indeed in His divine wisdom covered the error of Miller's time setting even unto this day, save for the servants the prophets to discover the message to proclaim for the last days in fullness and in reality.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

This was buries due to the bug...

Was the Millerites' message false? What did they actually proclaim? The message found in Revelation 14:6,7,8.

The Millerites gave the 1st and the 2nd angels' message in 1843 & 1844.

So all the Millerties did was give a message that had been given in the Bible for close to 2000 years before them. This is the problem when people pretend that there is not interpretation involved with the use of Bible texts. The Millerites used those verses in Rev. as well as others to say that the world was about to be destroyed by fire after the second coming which was to occur in 1843 and then 1844 (then some other dates by some Millerites/Adventists, though not Miller who realized his error)

 

[Lebesgue]

It's going to take me a while to get used to your name change here; don't be surprised if I call you something weird, as you're still "Reb" in my mind.

I did see a companion thread started by Mr Tall, and a moderator locked that thread with the comments alluding to closure of the companion thread you were involved in.

Too bad. Mr Tall's comments that CARM exists as an apologetics forum were precisely on-target. Regardless of the sub-forum (RCC, SDA, Mormon, etc) no one gets a free license to post something with no expectation that it isn't going to be questioned. And by golly, you sure learn fast if you don't have your facts right. I only have the comments that a few have made to go on, but it appears CF is the "country club", while CARM is definately the "university of hard knocks".

Good to "see" you here.
I don't like the "feel" of this site, and navigation is decidedly less intuitive here.
But, I guess I can manage if the other folks can.
Don't be surprised if I miss replies to my posts, as this forum doesn't seem to have the automated tools to find them easily.

Victor

I wanted to keep Reb on here but they wouldn't let me have it(already taken). So I chose Lebesgue in honour of my favourite mathematician Henri Lebesgue.

Leave it to me to choose something esoteric, eh?

G-d Bless.

Shalom,

Lebesgue aka Reb

 

[OntheDL]

So all the Millerties did was give a message that had been given in the Bible for close to 2000 years before them. This is the problem when people pretend that there is not interpretation involved with the use of Bible texts. The Millerites used those verses in Rev. as well as others to say that the world was about to be destroyed by fire after the second coming which was to occur in 1843 and then 1844 (then some other dates by some Millerites/Adventists, though not Miller who realized his error)

The interpretation of the 2300 days was sealed until the time of the end when the scroll was eaten.

And as far as I know the SDAs are the only group that proclaims the Three Angel's message.