Did God create sin? Did Adam have a choice?

[Greo]

Adam was created by God, perfect and in the image of God. But he was given a choice of whether to trust God or doubt and to be selfless or selfish through his choice to eat from the forbidden tree or to not eat of it. Now if God is all knowing and knew the future, this would mean that He knew that Adam and Eve were going to sin. The Bible also tells us that God had a plan of redemption, even from the beginning. Now if this is the case that God knew of Adams future fall and a plan to save humanity then God had set up man and his environment with the plan of Adam and Eve to fall in sin. Therefore it seems that God designed or created sin or at least the ground for it, in full knowledge of its future accomplishment. So did Adam really have a choice not to sin, in the light of God's created environment for Adam and his created humanity? And if he did not sin when he did then he would have done so in the future. Because it seems that God pre-destined it to occur. God wanted it to occur or else He would not have had a plan of salvation for humans, He would not have planted the tree in the garden and He would have made Adam with more strength or sense not to disobey God.

 

[holyrokker]

Adam was created by God, perfect and in the image of God.

Actually, the bible doesn't say that Adam was created perfect. It sats that "God saw that it was very good" regarding the creation of man.

Now if God is all knowing and knew the future, this would mean that He knew that Adam and Eve were going to sin.

Notice the word "if" The Bible is clear that God knows all things. But, does the Bible say that God knows the future? Does the Bible say that God knew Adam would sin?

The Bible also tells us that God had a plan of redemption, even from the beginning. Now if this is the case that God knew of Adams future fall and a plan to save humanity then God had set up man and his environment with the plan of Adam and Eve to fall in sin. Therefore it seems that God designed or created sin or at least the ground for it, in full knowledge of its future accomplishment.

Again, the word "if". You are assuming that God knew Adam would sin. Perhaps God set up his plan of salvation "in case" man were to sin.

An excellent article on this is "God’s Foreknowledge, Predestination,
and Human Freedom" by Dennis Bratcher. You can read it at http://www.cresourcei.org/freedom.html

 

[armothe]

Was man (and woman) created in God's image?

Did God ever get angry? Was God ever jealous? Does God have free will?

Our emotions and attributes are a direct reflection of the Master Creator.

Can God sin? Could Jesus sin? What good was Christ's trials in the desert along with his sacrifice on the cross if he didn't suffer, or had the potential to sin.

God is clear that he is the creator of everything, even (aspects of) evil itself (IS 45:4-7).

The struggle of the Christian life is to look towards Christ, who as a man was able to avoid sin and fulfill his mission. Look towards Christ, look towards God who are indeed perfect being/s - why? Because neither sin.

As Christians we are already made perfect by Christ's atonement- which now allows us to have a relationship with God. However, this relationship; like all other relationships, require effort. We must continue to be more Christlike by doing the best we can to remove all instances of sin from our life. What's the point if we are already clean in God's eyes? Because not only are we to have a relationship with God, but also with other people living in this wonderful creation. The absence of sin in our lives allow us to do just this much more effectively.

What are the two greatest commandments? Love the Lord your God... Love your neighbor... Love is where it's at. Sin is the absence of love and love the absence of sin. God is jealous out of love. Christ was angry out of love.

Live your life by the above commandments - observing both the examples of God's love and Christ's life - and you will become the being which God intended to be the salt and light of the world.

-A

 

[Greo]

Interesting. Does anyone else have an oppinion. I would like to see some more thoughts on this subject.

 

[prodromos]

The Incarnation was always God's plan whether Adam sinned or not. God always intended for man to share in His divinity, however death was brought into the world by Adam's sin and so it became necessary for the Son not only to become man, but to die in order to defeat death. If Adam had not sinned then presumeably Christ would not have to have died.

John

 

[daveleau]

Adam was created by God, perfect and in the image of God. But he was given a choice of whether to trust God or doubt and to be selfless or selfish through his choice to eat from the forbidden tree or to not eat of it. Now if God is all knowing and knew the future, this would mean that He knew that Adam and Eve were going to sin. The Bible also tells us that God had a plan of redemption, even from the beginning. Now if this is the case that God knew of Adams future fall and a plan to save humanity then God had set up man and his environment with the plan of Adam and Eve to fall in sin. Therefore it seems that God designed or created sin or at least the ground for it, in full knowledge of its future accomplishment. So did Adam really have a choice not to sin, in the light of God's created environment for Adam and his created humanity? And if he did not sin when he did then he would have done so in the future. Because it seems that God pre-destined it to occur. God wanted it to occur or else He would not have had a plan of salvation for humans, He would not have planted the tree in the garden and He would have made Adam with more strength or sense not to disobey God.

God created man and gave him a choice. Man's weakness, despite him being "good", was present. He was made in His image, but it does not say that Adam was perfect. A human example of this would be that Picasso's self-portraits were made in his image, but were not exactly like him. Adam was given a choice, which is obvious in the fact that God gave him limitations to what he could do. God has no limitations. God is also not able to be tricked. Adam was not an exact replica, but certain aspects of him were like those of God. What those were is outside of the scope of this topic.

God predestines certain issues of our lives, meaning He has a will for our lives. But, God does give choice. Otherwise, there is no reason for our existence. Absolute predestination would also mean that God, The perfect (triune) being in existence past, present or future, had created sin- action that is against His will. This does not fit with Scripture. God gives us choice, but predestines our path, which is His will for us. If we follow it, then we are pleasing God. If we do not follow it, then we are sinning.

God bless,
Dave

 

[armothe]

He was made in His image, but it does not say that Adam was perfect. A human example of this would be that Picasso's self-portraits were made in his image, but were not exactly like him. Adam was given a choice, which is obvious in the fact that God gave him limitations to what he could do. God has no limitations. God is also not able to be tricked. Adam was not an exact replica, but certain aspects of him were like those of God. What those were is outside of the scope of this topic.

But now we run into our definition of what perfect is. Our definition may state that perfection requires not being able to be tricked, but perhaps we are wrong?

We must admit that Adam was made imperfect by sin (as are we) and the only way we can reach perfection again is through Christ.

However, prior to sin- was Adam considered perfect? What made him imperfect? The potential that he could be tricked? The potential that he could sin? Christ was considered perfect, yet he must have had the possibility to sin, since otherwise His temptations in the desert would have been meaningless.

I submit that humans without sin are the perfect and intended creations of God. Thus Adam, prior to his sin, was indeed the perfect and intended creation of God.

-A

 

[Greo]

God created man and gave him a choice. Man's weakness, despite him being "good", was present. He was made in His image, but it does not say that Adam was perfect. A human example of this would be that Picasso's self-portraits were made in his image, but were not exactly like him. Adam was given a choice, which is obvious in the fact that God gave him limitations to what he could do. God has no limitations. God is also not able to be tricked. Adam was not an exact replica, but certain aspects of him were like those of God. What those were is outside of the scope of this topic.

But God does not make mistakes like Picasso does. His creation was "good" and God saw that it was "good", therefore perfect, this including Adam as part of His perfect creation. Maybe God didn't make Adam with all the same qualities or attributes of God but if God made Him with weakness, wouldn't that suggest that because God was the author of Adam in his weakness, that God had something to do with Adam's fall? God could have made Adam stronger to resist.

God predestines certain issues of our lives, meaning He has a will for our lives. But, God does give choice. Otherwise, there is no reason for our existence. Absolute predestination would also mean that God, The perfect (triune) being in existence past, present or future, had created sin- action that is against His will. This does not fit with Scripture.

Please elaborate why it does not fit with scripture.

God gives us choice, but predestines our path, which is His will for us. If we follow it, then we are pleasing God. If we do not follow it, then we are sinning.

But God being the one to create Adam with weakness is the one who allowed Adam to sin. He made much room for sin and allowed the untimate temptation to occure with Adam's "created weakness".

 

[Greo]

But now we run into our definition of what perfect is. Our definition may state that perfection requires not being able to be tricked, but perhaps we are wrong?

We must admit that Adam was made imperfect by sin (as are we) and the only way we can reach perfection again is through Christ.

However, prior to sin- was Adam considered perfect? What made him imperfect? The potential that he could be tricked? The potential that he could sin? Christ was considered perfect, yet he must have had the possibility to sin, since otherwise His temptations in the desert would have been meaningless.

I submit that humans without sin are the perfect and intended creations of God. Thus Adam, prior to his sin, was indeed the perfect and intended creation of God.

-A

Yes, but God, in making Adam did create Adam with enough "weakness" to sin, despite Adam's created perfection, being in the image of God (in God likeness in some ways). If God did not create Adam with this weakness then he would not have sinned. He would have had the streangth to not be tricked by the serpent who used Adam's weakness against him.

 

[Greo]

Was man (and woman) created in God's image?

Yes man and woman were made in the image of God. If you say that being in the image of God is physical then there is enough argument against that.

Did God ever get angry? Was God ever jealous? Does God have free will?

God certainly did get angry, jealous and He does have a free will and none of these things are nessesarily a sin for both man and God. There is such a thing as righteous anger, righteous jealousy and Righteous choice.

Our emotions and attributes are a direct reflection of the Master Creator.

I agree but not nessesarily physical attributes. There are many areas to the reflection of the image of God.

Can God sin? Could Jesus sin? What good was Christ's trials in the desert along with his sacrifice on the cross if he didn't suffer, or had the potential to sin.

"Can God sin?" is my question rephrased. Jesus is God and can sin as you have just pointed out in your quetsion of the trials of temptation Jesus went through. Jesus was tempted and giving into those temptations result in sin. Jesus was capable of sin as a man.

God is clear that he is the creator of everything, even (aspects of) evil itself (IS 45:4-7).

God is not saying this at all. God is not saying that He is the creator of evil. Light is good but darkness does not suddenly mean it is evil because darkness also has it's function created by God for good. And the destruction it is talking of in this verse is about the judgment poured out upon those who do evil; Not God doing evil but His judgment of it.

Westermann (in loc.) declares "If the creator of evil and woe is God, there is no room left for a devil."

Thought originated from the Expositor's Bible Commentary on this passage.

The struggle of the Christian life is to look towards Christ, who as a man was able to avoid sin and fulfill his mission. Look towards Christ, look towards God who are indeed perfect being/s - why? Because neither sin.

Jesus did not have the same weakness as Adam. Jesus had the extra divineness that Adam lacked. Jesus knew he was God. Adam was not. Adam wanted to be like God. Jesus knowing He was already God did not have a desire to become like God because He already was.

As Christians we are already made perfect by Christ's atonement- which now allows us to have a relationship with God. However, this relationship; like all other relationships, require effort. We must continue to be more Christlike by doing the best we can to remove all instances of sin from our life. What's the point if we are already clean in God's eyes? Because not only are we to have a relationship with God, but also with other people living in this wonderful creation. The absence of sin in our lives allow us to do just this much more effectively.

Are you suggesting that God did create sin? So there was no point to creation if Christ did not come?

What are the two greatest commandments? Love the Lord your God... Love your neighbor... Love is where it's at. Sin is the absence of love and love the absence of sin. God is jealous out of love. Christ was angry out of love.

For sure. I agree. But due to the doubts of some of your basis arguments I do not support your usage of this argument to back your stance. It would fit if I agreed on your basis arguments but I do see your point. But the point has not been made without an agreed basis, which of course depends on me and so requires your acknowledgement that I agree with your basis before your point is agreeable unless a well established undeniable basis is formed (which I don't think is always possible because through choice one can agree to dissagree). This is the same for all other points you have made with a dissagreed basis. If you clarify and support your basis further then I can have an opportunity to further evaluate your proposition and hopefully agree on your point if it is made agreeable. It is all about learning and I am willing to learn truth. Hope to see another post from you.

Live your life by the above commandments - observing both the examples of God's love and Christ's life - and you will become the being which God intended to be the salt and light of the world.

You are talking about being transformed into the image of God which is subject to interpratation of how to become the image of God and if we can because of the fall or whether the fall affected us being in the image of God at all, depending on the interpretation of what "attributes" are us being in the image of God and what that means - some thing that is off topic.

 

[Greo]

Actually, the bible doesn't say that Adam was created perfect. It sats that "God saw that it was very good" regarding the creation of man. Notice the word "if" The Bible is clear that God knows all things. But, does the Bible say that God knows the future? Does the Bible say that God knew Adam would sin? Again, the word "if". You are assuming that God knew Adam would sin. Perhaps God set up his plan of salvation "in case" man were to sin.[/color]

An excellent article on this is "God’s Foreknowledge, Predestination,
and Human Freedom" by Dennis Bratcher. You can read it at http://www.cresourcei.org/freedom.html

I like your answer holyrocker. Yes, I acknowlege that my questions are definatly dependant on the assumption of whether God is foreknowing or not, as nothing can be understood without some form of assumption whether recognized or not. But would you not think that if God is all knowing that it would also include Him being foreknowing. Especially when He is GOD. A real God should know the future aswell. He would be smart enough to know what is going to happen. God would at least be able to work it out. We as humans can in some ways predect circumstances depentant on certain things. Surely God can at least make perfect educated predections on human activity in the light that He created them. I would say that the Creator should know every action the created will perform. God said he knew Jeremiah before He was born (Jer 1:5). God knew the actions of King David before he was born (Psalm 139:16). These examples give but just a taste of God's ability of foreknowlege. So he had full foreknowlege of Adam's sin before Adam was even created.

 

[holyrokker]

I'd like to refer you to an article on this very topic.

THE FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD



or,



THE OMNISCIENCE OF GOD CONSISTENT WITH HIS
OWN HOLINESS AND MAN'S FREE AGENCY



BY JOEL S. HAYES
1890 http://www.biblical-theology.com/omniscience/hayes1.htm

 

[daveleau]

But now we run into our definition of what perfect is. Our definition may state that perfection requires not being able to be tricked, but perhaps we are wrong?

We must admit that Adam was made imperfect by sin (as are we) and the only way we can reach perfection again is through Christ.

However, prior to sin- was Adam considered perfect? What made him imperfect? The potential that he could be tricked? The potential that he could sin? Christ was considered perfect, yet he must have had the possibility to sin, since otherwise His temptations in the desert would have been meaningless.

I submit that humans without sin are the perfect and intended creations of God. Thus Adam, prior to his sin, was indeed the perfect and intended creation of God.

-A

Adam was not perfect. Scripture tells us that he was "good".

 

[armothe]

Adam was not perfect. Scripture tells us that he was "good".

And in God's eyes, whats the difference?

-A

 

[prodromos]

Adam was created "good" and had the capacity to develop towards perfection, ie. to become like God.

 

[armothe]

Adam was created "good" and had the capacity to develop towards perfection, ie. to become like God.

Are you saying Adam had the potential to become like God? Isn't this the same thing the serpent said to Eve?

-A