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Did God Create Fossils?

miamited

Ted
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mornin James,

To add to the list:

In 1835 the German physicist Karl Friedrich Gauss made the first measurement of the earth’s magnetic dipole moment. Additional evaluations have been carried out every decade or so since then. Since 1835, global magnetism has decreased 14 percent. The record of measurements from 1835 to 1965 shows a magnetic half-life of {{#show:Earth|?Magnetic half life#years}}. Thus even 7,000 years ago, the earth would have had a magnetic field 32 times stronger than it now has. 20,000 years ago, this field would have generated enough Joule heat to liquefy the earth. One million years ago the earth would have had greater magnetism than all objects in the universe, and would have vaporized. Thus the earth could not be over 6,000 or 7,000 years old.

Zircon crystals were taken in core samples from five levels of a 15,000-foot (45,720 dm) shaft in New Mexico, with temperatures always above 313 °C (595.4 °F). The sea-level boiling point of water is, of course, defined at 100 °C.

Radiogenic lead gradually diffuses out of zircon crystals, and does so more rapidly at increased temperatures. But careful examination revealed that essentially none of the radiogenic lead had diffused out of the examined zircon samples.

Uranium and thorium are subject to alpha decay, i.e. they emit alpha particles, which are actually nuclei of helium. Analysis of the helium content of those same zircon samples revealed strikingly high helium retention in those crystals. The helium should have diffused out of the zircon samples even more rapidly than the lead would have, if the earth were more than several thousands of years old. Thus if the zircons were really 1.5 billion years old, as conventionally assumed, then nearly all the helium should have dissipated from the samples. Furthermore, accelerated decay appears to have produced a billion years worth of helium within not more than 6000 years, give or take 2000.

The core of the sun produces deuterium from hydrogen fusion at 5 million degrees K. The heat is transferred from the core by convection currents so it could reach surface in days, not a million years. It also leads to an age for the sun based on the deuterium/hydrogen ratio of the local interstellar medium of 6,000-12,857 years.

The RATE Group from Institute for Creation Research performed extensive tests with diamonds to detect measurable levels of carbon 14. As a carbon-based substance, diamonds are a perfect candidate to contain the isotope. As the world's hardest natural substance, a diamond is not subject to contamination/adulteration from external sources over time as may be the case with softer substances. As one of the oldest substances on Earth, diamonds should not contain any measurable Carbon-14.

The RATE group detected measurable Carbon-14 in diamonds. The opponents of this assertion attempted to show that other isotopes such as Uranium could cause the spontaneous formation of Carbon-14. The samples in this case were sufficiently isolated and their context documented such that no such evidence of other isotopes ever existed in the near-term since the purported formulation of the detected Carbon-14.

The same is true, however, for strata. In general the strata ostensibly laid down by gradual processes should have carbon-14 measurements increasing as the samples rise through the surface. No detectable carbon-14 should be in lower strata (generally speaking, owing to water percolation and the like). Pervasively however, carbon-14 measurements are inconsistent with the notion of gradual deposition of strata and as a rule have inconsistent measurements throughout the rock layers.

Regarding the moon: Samples brought back from the extensive Apollo mission have been thoroughly tested. One of these findings is the presence in those samples of the short-lived isotopes Uranium-236 and Thorium-230. Short-term radioactive isotopes decay quickly into lead. If the moon were even 50,000 years old, these short-lived radioisotopes would not be present, but indeed they are abundant in the collected samples. The moon therefore cannot be older than several thousand years.

In addition, many of the lunar samples were magnetic. This in itself is remarkable, because the magnetic dipole moment of the moon is very low ({{#show:Moon|?Present magnetic moment}}). Magnetic lunar samples are of two types: basalt and breccia. A magnetic basalt sample returned by the crew of Apollo 16 had formed in a magnetic field of flux density 0.12 mT, corresponding to a magnetic dipole moment of 6.3 * 1021N-m/T. A magnetic breccia sample returned by the crew of Apollo 15 had formed in a field of flux density 2100 nT, corresponding to a magnetic dipole moment of 1.1 * 1020N-m/T.

The problem for old-earth theories is evident and considerable. How could the moon have had a magnetic field as strong as it must have been when either of the two lunar samples formed, and not have nearly as strong a magnetic field today? By uniformitarian theories, any celestial body either has a magnetic field or it doesn't—and if it doesn't, then it never did. And so, while some evolutionist scientists insist that the moon had an internal dynamo that later ran down (and cannot explain how that happened), others insist that the moon never had a dynamo, and never had a magnetic field, and therefore the magnetism in the two lunar samples resulted from a magnetic field outside the moon (and, like the first group, cannot explain where this external field came from or where it went).

Russell Humphreys calculates that the moon's magnetic dipole moment at creation was {{#show:Moon|?Creation magnetic moment}}, with a half-life of {{#show:Moon|?Magnetic half life#years}}. Given that the radius of the lunar core is 350 km, the conductivity of the lunar core is 75 percent of that of the Earth's core. Thus the earth and the moon could have cores of similar composition. He then suggests that the basalt, a remnant of the lava flows that created the lunar maria, formed about 370 years after creation, and that the moon then suffered a meteoric bombardment less than two centuries following the global flood.

The rotational speed of the earth (about {{#show:Earth|?Rotation speed#mph}}) is gradually slowing down on account of the gravitational drag forces of the sun and moon along with other factors. If the earth were really billions of years old, as claimed, it should already be in tidal lock with the sun.

Lord Kelvin (the 19th-century physicist who introduced the Kelvin temperature scale) used this slowing rotation as a reason why the earth could not be very old. He calculated that had the earth existed for 7.2 billion years, its rotational speed would have been twice the present speed. This would have produced a difference of 86 kilometers between the equatorial and polar radii of the earth. The actual equatorial radius is {{#show:Earth|?Equatorial radius#km}}, and its polar radius {{#show:Earth|?Polar radius#km}}, a difference of 21 km, not 86

The decline in rotation rate is now known to be greater than previously thought. If the earth had existed for 5 billion years, then the difference between polar and equatorial radii would still have been significantly greater (64 km) than it actually is. Furthermore, the continents would have been distributed in the tropical regions, and the world's oceans would have collected in the temperate and polar regions. This is a distribution that Kelvin also would have predicted, and he cited the lack of such a finding as a falsification of a great age of the earth. Thus by either Lord Kelvin's original calculation or a more modern one, the earth cannot be more than a few thousand years old.

If anyone's interested in further research on the subject, go here: http://creationwiki.org/Young_earth_evidence

Of course, all evidence regarding this issue depends on certain assumptions. The main one being that everything has always been and acted as we see it today. My argument here is not to necessarily declare that there is scientific proof of a young earth and universe, but merely to make note that there is scientific evidence that can support such a claim which needs to be included and looked at along with the scientific evidence that says everything is millions or billions of years old. As I say, both veins of scientific research regarding this matter rest on a foundation of certain assumptions.

God bless,
In Christ, Ted
 
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James Wilson

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As I say, both veins of scientific research regarding this matter rest on a foundation of certain assumptions.

I agree with you. My intent is not to disprove evolution (I'd need a million Creationist scientists willing to devote their lives to this task), but to show that Creation is an intellectually defensible alternative.

I hope my Creationist friends out there aren't disappointed in my answer, but the people who really concern me are my brothers and sisters in Christ who are deluged with evolutionist arguments and hidden assumptions. I don't want my family in Christ to lose heart or lose their faith.
 
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miamited

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Hi James,

It has for quite awhile now, been something that I have considered may well be the 'great delusion' that the Scriptures speak of. There really doesn't seem to be any current issue that is so pervasively believed among believers and unbelievers alike, that by my understanding, undermines the truth and power and glory of God.

Evolutionists and old earthers believe that God was somehow involved in getting the ball rolling, and yes, there is some power and glory in that. But, to believe and understand that God created all that is, in merely the moment that it takes to command something to exist, portrays a God of so much greater power, majesty and wisdom than we could even hope to imagine. The Scriptures declare that the very heavens declare the majesty and glory of God. How much more so if that God created in mere moments all that comprises this realm rather than a God who got the ball rolling, but pretty much everything that we see to exist today in both the heavens and on the earth came about by just the regular processes of the natural way in which things come to be.

I'm fine with science as it deals with the here and now of how things operate. But, when we take these scientific proofs that we can replicate and duplicate today and then say to ourselves that this is how things have always operated in all instances and in all occasions in the past for which we cannot replicate and duplicate, then I'm not so much in agreement. Especially when such findings seem to clearly go contradictory to what God seems to have told us in His word. For example, we can duplicate and replicate ad infinitum that water seeks its level. We can put it in a bowl and pour it out. We've seen this property of water displayed thousands of times when dams and levies break open. But God's description of the Isrealites crossing through the sea seems to clearly indicate that water stood as a wall at both of their sides. It did not follow its natural property of seeking level for the time in which God was acting upon it. We have no way of accounting for that except to say that God can do that, or, that it just didn't happen as God's word tells us. We just aren't understanding the story correctly. It's not a real life, real time event, but rather a parable from which we should glean some deeper understanding of God. I flatly and forthrightly deny such positions.

God can make the sun stand still in its course across the sky. God can cause the shadow cast by the sun to go backwards. Even at the time it happened Hezekiah said to Isaiah that it was a simple task to have the shadow go forward and asked that it be made to go backward. Why? Because Hezekiah knew that only God could do such a thing.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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Riberra

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The passage in question in no ways is about a sacrifice...do you believe that Cain have offered the fruits and vegetables of his garden to be sacrified ? The story is about Cain and Abel making an offering to God as soon as Cain and Abel became mature enough .They have surely not waited many hundred of years to do that.. Taken into consideration that it have taken about 100 years for Adam and Eve to have their third child Seth.You want us to believe that Cain ,Abel,Seth and many other childs of Adam and Eve and many generations of their descendants where there when Cain have killed Abel,that reasonning is simpy not Biblical. (Genesis 4)
 
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Teabag

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Everything that scientists have said about the earth and its age and how things have developed, i.e, coal etc is true! But, one has to remember that God started the ball rolling! He is the creator. He was the one who pressed the green button to start it all!
 
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Resha Caner

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Well, I wouldn't say everything. And "true" is not really the right word. It's just that within the assumptions they make they've not found a better model.

But, your general sentiment is nice.
 
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Resha Caner

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I agree with you. My intent is not to disprove evolution (I'd need a million Creationist scientists willing to devote their lives to this task), but to show that Creation is an intellectually defensible alternative.

I have a very similar attitude toward the whole thing. The problem is, there is not one version of creationism. So, some may be defensible (which, of course, includes my version ;P) but not all are.
 
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miamited

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Hi riberra,

Well, that's just a matter of the terminology that I use when speaking of offerings made unto God. God always asks for the best and so it is, in some way, a sacrifice of the best that one has, to give it to God rather than keep it for himself or sell it for money. I'm fine with offering and that is the word used in the Scriptures, so forgive me. There is also no evidence that Seth was Adam and Eve's third child. I don't believe the genealogies are necessarily speaking of a man's first child, but merely giving us a landmark for which to give us an accounting of the years of time that has passed from generation to generation. My reasoning is not unbiblical as in it couldn't have happened that way. It merely is an assumption made that the statement given throughout the genealogies that there were more children to be born to the fathers doesn't necessarily mean that the other children all came after the one mentioned.

Yes, I find it highly doubtful that receiving God's command to multiply and fill the earth, that Adam and Eve had only had three children by the time Adam was 130. I also find it highly doubtful that Adam and Eve didn't have any children until they were over 100 years old, if we consider your reasoning. God told Adam and Eve to multiply and fill the earth and I'm confident that they started on that fairly quickly. After all, that's where all the fun is!

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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Riberra

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The command given by God to multiply and fill the earth was given to the humans (Mankind)that God have created on the 6 Th day (Genesis 1:26-28).No such command have been given to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden...(Genesis 2) The command that God have given to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden was not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.Genesis 2:16-17
 
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Riberra

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Hi riberra,

Ok. I'm going to agree that you believe that. I don't.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
The account in the Bible prove that Adam and Eve were not in a hurry to make childs after their twins Cain and Abel.
You don't believe the Bible who say that Adam was one hundred and thirty years old when he begat Seth and that AFTER he begat Seth ADAM begat other sons and daughters and Adam died at the age of nine hundred and thirty years ?


Genesis 5
1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:

5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

6 And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos: 7 And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters: 8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.
 
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Steve Petersen

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Have you ever seen any rebuttals to those items?
 
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BobRyan

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There are two contradictory accounts in Genesis, Riberra. In Gen. 1, first animals, then man and woman together. In Gen.2, first man, then animals, then woman.

That is false.

In Gen 1:1 we have the summary of all creation. (NOT in any time-boxed chronological sequence)
In Gen 1:2-3 we have the details of creation of life on this planet, and also the creation of "two great lights" the sun and moon. - (in a time-boxed chronological sequence)
In Gen 2:4-end we have details about marriage, the two trees of the garden... rain not falling.. etc -- no time frame at all given and nothing about making the sun, moon, atmosphere, dryland etc.

All of them - fit perfectly. None of them written as a contradiction.
 
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BobRyan

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Ok but what if you're an atheist -- wouldn't you just be inclined to dismiss all such evidence??
 
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Colter

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The Hebrew priest wrote Genesis, and they have NEVER been wrong about anything. Happy Good Friday.
 
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Colter

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I don't believe the fallen administrator Satan still exists, nor do I believe he ever had the powers of a God assigned to him. Spiritual truth does indeed come by way of revelations great and small all over the world in all religions, but the subsequent speculations about how those truths relate to the biased authors of so-called scripture is a different matter.

Religion is a proud and stubborn institution, while it is so accustomed to confessing the sins of the world, it fails to reform it's own shortcomings. And when institutional authority is set on the faulty foundation of the inerrancy of its own writings, then apologetics perpetually stunts growth and makes a laughing stock of religion.

NOTE: the discoveries in archeology and science are more and more at odds with what we would expect in the Genesis account were true. But even Genesis exhibits inconsistencies with it's own explanation.

But had our faith been on the perfection of God all along and not the retarding influence of the speculation of holy men, we would not have this problem today.
 
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James Wilson

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Have you ever seen any rebuttals to those items?

I have no doubt that evolutionists do not like creationist science, and if creationist ideas get enough attention, they will have rebuttals. But rebuttals are not proof of error. On the day Einstein died, degreed scientists were still fighting against the theory of relativity.

What I object to is evolutionists calling evolution a fact rather than a theory.

I had a physics professor at UC Berkeley (a white-haired gent, to be sure) who stated, "Everything that I learned in college working for my degree is now wrong." How can any scientist maintain that any theory is fact in view of the past performance of science? Indeed, science is a useful tool. I had a very profitable career in science and published many satisfying papers that garnered worldwide attention within the scientific community.

But I don't like science attacking believers and telling them that science has proven God does not exist or their Bible is wrong. I would prefer an evolutionist who admitted that he just didn't have enough information to make a judgment. Oh, how I'd love to see that!
 
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James Wilson

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Ok but what if you're an atheist -- wouldn't you just be inclined to dismiss all such evidence??

You've made a very insightful comment.

We all have assumptions (that "we" includes atheists, agnostics, Christians and the undecided alike)!

A major assumption for Christians is "God is". Can we prove it? No. Other than I just talked to Him this morning and heard His reply. But can I use His relationship to me and my love for Him to prove He exists to an atheist? No.

A major assumption of atheists is "God isn't." Can they prove it? No. And what many of them actually believe is that the God they perceive is capricious and mean. And they refuse to believe in such a mean God.

Our job and joy as believers is to show them that God is GOOD, all the time. (Many atheists believe God is mean because they attribute Satan's destructive and evil deeds to God).

Getting back to your point about our logical conclusions being held captive by our assumptions: Christians often find themselves standing on their pile of assumptions and arguing with an atheist standing upon his pile of assumptions. It's pointless! What would be useful is to point out to the atheist that he IS standing on a pile of assumptions. That's the beginning of wisdom.
 
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Riberra

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Have you ever seen any rebuttals to those items?
http://www.icr.org/article/evidence-for-young-world/
Yes, there is a rebuttal.
Here:
http://aigbusted.blogspot.ca/2007/09/humphreys-fourteen-evidences-for-young.html

Monday, September 10, 2007
Humphreys' Fourteen Evidences for a Young World Gets Ripped
In this post, I am going to go through Answers in Genesis' "Evidences for a Young World" and dispel each and every one of them. I rely heavily on Talk Origins, but plenty of the links on more interesting topics are from other websites, so check em out!

1. Galaxies Wind Up too Fast
According to Dr. Ray Carlberg of the University of Toronto:
"There is observational evidence that nearby companion galaxies or an asymmetric, bar-shaped concentration of mass can drive a spiral wave in the disk of the galaxy."



2. Too few supernova remnants
Our universe is estimated to be 13.7 billion years old, and stars formed at an indefinite time after that. Most stars have a lifespan of about 10 billion years, and many are so far away (millions of light years) that we would not see their supernova until long after it happened. Lastly, supernova remnants have been observed (about 167,000 light years away), which contradicts the idea of a young universe.

3. Comets disintegrate too quickly.
It is true that comets have a lifespan of about 10,000 years; it is also true that the Kuiper belt contains them, thus it is not a problem for them to be less than 10,000 years old.


4. Not enough mud on the sea floor.
Apparently Mr. Humphreys is unaware that Erosion and Plate Tectonics can remove mud. Research your claims next time buddy!

5. Not enough sodium in the sea

Apparently Mr. Humphreys figured this up this up without properly estimating the amount of sodium lost in the alteration of basalt. They omit sodium lost in the formation of diatomaceous earth, and they omit numerous others mechanisms which are minor individually but collectively account for a significant fraction of salt. He was contacted about this, yet he has not corrected it.

6. The earth’s magnetic field is decaying too fast.
No, it doesn't decay, the earth's magnetic field has weakened, strengthened, and changed polarity many times in earth's history, and real, testable evidence for this exists.


7. Many strata are too tightly bent.

Actually, if these strata were bent quickly, they probably would have fractured. Take a piece of silly putty, for instance, and try to pull it apart quickly. Try this again, but this time slowly. You will find that the quicker you pull it apart, the less it stretches. The principal behind rocks bending over long periods of time rather than instantaneously is the same.


8. Biological material decays too fast.
Two claims are made here that should be addressed:
a)Mitochondrial Eve is 6,000 years old

She's no younger than 120,000 years old.

b) Soft tissue and blood cells from a dinosaur have astonished experts
New York Times reported:
Earlier hopes of finding cells in the dinosaur bone have been dashed. Dr. Schweitzer said she could see no direct sign of cells, although a chemical stain that recognizes DNA picked up something in the holes where the bone cells would have rested. But she said she had been unable to retrieve DNA that could be identified as originating in a dinosaur. She and her colleagues had better luck in looking for heme, the oxygen carrying part of the hemoglobin molecule of the blood.

9. Fossil radioactivity shortens geologic “ages” to a few years. (Radiohalos)

Amateur scientist John Brawley investigated Gentry's claims directly by studying local rock samples, and concluded that there is no good evidence that these "polonium" haloes are actually produced by polonium at all, as opposed to longer-lived radionuclides such as radon or uranium.


10. Too much helium in minerals.
The helium results could easily be due to an aberrant sample. They could be an artifact of the experimental or collecting method (e.g., defects in the zircons caused by rapid cooling) or from just plain sloppiness.

Helium deposits are common in New Mexico, and excess helium has been found just a few miles from where the sample was taken. Source:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD015.html


11. Too much carbon 14 in deep geologic strata.
New C14 is formed from background radiation, such as radioactivity in the surrounding rocks. In some cases, C14 from the atmosphere can contaminate a sample. Some things that can contaminate the sample: Sulfur bacteria, which commonly grow in coal, Secondary carbonates from groundwater that form on fracture surfaces, and Whewellite, a carbon-containing mineral, that often forms as coal weathers.

Source:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD011_6.html


12. Not enough Stone Age skeletons.
Estimates that there should be 8 billion buried dead from the stone age, yet only a few thousand are found.

I wonder if he ever considered that over thousands of years the bodies might decay so badly that we wouldn’t have anything to find? Or perhaps some people were cremated (who knows?); or perhaps the grave markers wore away and the bodies are buried some place as of yet undiscovered. In any case, the number of bodies found does not prove the stone age was short.


13. Agriculture is too recent.
Um…. No. Anyone who studies civilization will know that we went through a hunter-and-gatherer period in which there was no agriculture. There is evidence of agriculture from 11,000 years ago, which is a little too ancient for Humphreys’ 6,000 year old earth. There is DNA Evidence that dogs were domesticated 100,000 years ago.


14. History is too short.

You don’t suppose maybe writing had not evolved? Apparently he doesn’t. Australian rock art has been discovered dating from 40,000 years old, which ties in to the DNA evidence that shows Australian Aboriginals diverged from an Asian population 40,000-70,000 years ago.


Also, there is an ancient Sanskrit manuscript that tells of a lake that existed in Kashmir. According to modern geological reporting, about 40,000 years ago Kashmir was indeed a lake in the valley of Kashmir in northern India. It was covered by a huge lake and it was blocked on the southern end by a little range of mountains. And at a certain point, something happened and it broke open and the lake drained out. And if it is to be taken literally, then it means that somebody must have seen this lake as it existed 50,000 years ago and wrote about it.


Look out also Tim Thompson page :
http://www.tim-thompson.com/young-earth.html
 
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